Is Modern Jive an "uber-dance" that contains all the others?

[David Bailey]

Like Andy, I'm wondering what the formal definition of a swing dance is...

Far be it from me to overuse Wikipedia (), but looking it up, it's not unreasonable to call MJ one of the "familky" of Swing dances.

Can an average Lindy Hop leader dance with an average WCS follower and make it work? (Or visa-versa?) I don't really know any Lindy Hop, but what I know of it, it is more than a "slight" adjustment of style and tempo away from WCS.

Well, by the same token, Salsa is one of the family of Rumba dances, but you wouldn't necessarily expect an average Rumba dancer to dance well with an average Salsa dancer.

I wonder if one of MJ's best competition couples entered a Swing or WCS competition in the US whether they would be thrown out for not being Swing or WCS enough... Hmm...

Being brutal about it, from everything I've seen and heard, the best MJ comp couples probably wouldn't get into the finals in the first place.

[Minnie M]

Sure. For the Lindy leader, it's mostly a case of avoiding rock steps. For the West Coast leader, it's mostly a case of accepting the lack of a strict slot. Neither of these things are too challenging. The ideal song would probably be West Coast tempo with a swung feel; for example, Wade in the Water. However, lots of music would work fine. Oh, and there'd need to be some flexibility in the area of follower play.



It's not unusual for MJ leaders to be able to lead non-dancers, so I wouldn't read too much into their ability to lead followers of other dances. Modern Jive has a very shallow learning curve for new followers, and I think that's what you're seeing.

I've regularly danced Modern Jive, Lindy, and now West Coast. I don't know whether Modern Jive is "a swing dance", but I do feel that Lindy and West Coast, whilst different dances, are much closer to each other than either of them are to Modern Jive.

totally agree

As a Modern Jive follower who dances Lindy and West Coast Swing, some MJ dancers think I am a Lindy dancer as I have a sort of "swing" in my follow, however my first dance is MJ and will always be that

The hardest thing for a follower (when mixing styles), is to change the timing. I recently had a dance with one of David Plummers students of UK Smooth (slotted MJ with WCS moves) - it was a bit hard to switch timing off and just follow, but I really enjoyed the dance, and my partner thanked me for a great dance

[David Bailey]

And the other great thing about MJ (which to me makes it again the 'Über' dance form) - is that even the lead-follow can be switched - so the follow becomes the lead - eg hijacking, sabotage - and simple - 'ok you take the lead' or 'i'll take it back now' - as happened to me recently.

Ummm.... "Great" being a matter of opinion

Ok - it's still the principle of lead-follow - (well kind of) - but not many other traditional dance forms allow this switch to happen.

Yeah. Funny that.

The other thing is that quite often with some dancers, we delierately break connection and do (ahem) 'disco dancing/boogie' for 5-10 seconds - eg. at an appropriate break - so it doesnt at the point adhere to lead-follow either - it becomes free form....

Ummm.... again, not something I think is a recommendation for Über-dom.

Although for the umlauts

[JiveLad]

I've done this in Modern Jive, and also in Lindy and West Coast. I don't know if it happens in other dances.



Shines are common in many dance forms, including Lindy and Salsa.

...and Tango? I don't know anything about Tango?

[David Bailey]

...and Tango? I don't know anything about Tango?

I've never encountered / heard of Tango shines - I'd be amazed if there were any such thing, separation of dancers is pretty much completely against the spirit of AT.

[straycat]

And the other great thing about MJ (which to me makes it again the 'Über' dance form) - is that even the lead-follow can be switched - so the follow becomes the lead - eg hijacking, sabotage - and simple - 'ok you take the lead' or 'i'll take it back now' - as happened to me recently.

Also in Lindy (see if you can count how many times it happens here, for example...)

[ducasi]

Far be it from me to overuse Wikipedia (), but looking it up, it's not unreasonable to call MJ one of the "familky" of Swing dances.

While MJ is listed there as a "swing dance", I don't see an actual definition of what a swing dance is.

Being brutal about it, from everything I've seen and heard, the best MJ comp couples probably wouldn't get into the finals in the first place.

Who said anything about getting into the finals? Would they be thrown out of the first round because they weren't doing swing? (Or would they get so much further than you might expect due to their innovative style of dancing? )

[straycat]

Who said anything about getting into the finals? Would they be thrown out of the first round because they weren't doing swing? (Or would they get so much further than you might expect due to their innovative style of dancing? )

I'm going with "wouldn't get very far at all".

And I don't think 'innovative' would necessarily be the term the judges came up with

[David Bailey]

While MJ is listed there as a "swing dance", I don't see an actual definition of what a swing dance is.

It says:

The term "swing dance" is commonly used to refer either to a group of dances developing in response to swing music in the 1920s, 30s and 40s, or to lindy hop, , a popular partner dance today. While the majority of swing dances began in African American communities as vernacular African American dances, there were a number of forms which developed within Anglo-American or other ethnic group communities. Balboa is one of the most commonly cited examples.

Seems like a definition to me.

Of course, that's not an explanation, which I suspect you're looking for...

Who said anything about getting into the finals? Would they be thrown out of the first round because they weren't doing swing? (Or would they get so much further than you might expect due to their innovative style of dancing? )

Depends on the comp rules. But I doubt they'd get very far.

[Raul]

Daft question ... WHO WOULD TEACH IT? Certaintly not the CTA.

Lets get it into perspective. Ceroc teachers are typically non-dancers who have done some modern jive. They have a certain level of MJ experienece but the key factor is personality. Ceroc Teacher 'training' comprsies of 4 days of learning lines and a few movesments by rote. Lets compare this with a PROPER dance teacher. Three years plus at dance school being trained by profesional dance instructors ... with the pre-dependancy that they have dance talent in the first place. Lets compare these two sets of teachers ... who do YOU think will be best able to teach a 'Uber-Dance'?

I have to agree with Gus.
The technical elements required for other forms of dancing are significantly higher then the common form of MJ. Other dances sometimes drift into freeforms e.g Tango nuevo, Miami Salsa, Casino Salsa but even with the strong dance fundamentals these dances have limitations for lead and follow.
Many dance forms use different parts of the body in different ways.

The very fact that MJ is very loose as a dance form, allows IN THEORY many styles to be incorporated within it, but doing any of these to any decent level requires competency in that dance form. Well, in this 'uber-dance' we would become the best dancers in the whole world -

To all those out there with two left feet "From Zero to Hero" take up MJ!

Regarding the ability and experience of the dance instructors, most MJ teachers have a regular job and dance as a pasttime. Many of the non-MJ dance instructors are dedicated to that only. It is like comparing football in the park with league football by paid professionals. I do not wish to be unfair, a few of our teachers could become professionals but not very many, and they could teach then teach only MJ and one other dance form at most.

[JiveLad]

Ummm.... "Great" being a matter of opinion


Yeah. Funny that.


Ummm.... again, not something I think is a recommendation for Über-dom.

Although for the umlauts

Yes - I guess for me, I prefer the freedom of MJ compared to the strictures and traditions of other forms (eg. tango). It is the freedom and potential for dynamic interpretation and improvisation that makes it great.

And why not 'great'? It is quite popular - isn't it........compared to tango?

PS With regards to 'Candyman' - mentioned by someone earlier. I wrote in my blog that it was impossible to dance to properly - until Mick (St. Albans teacher - and of the UKs top dancers) did his stuff: this showed the versatility of the form: he did a kind of hip-hop/street interpretation - which worked so well. Ok - of course not everyone could do that - but it showed what can be done within an MJ setting.......

[MartinHarper]

Why not 'great'? It is quite popular - isn't it........compared to tango?

David was saying that he doesn't feel that lead-swapping is great, not that he doesn't feel that Modern Jive is great.

[David Bailey]

Yes - I guess for me, I prefer the freedom of MJ compared to the strictures and traditions of other forms (eg. tango). It is the freedom and potential for dynamic interpretation and improvisation that makes it great.

Mmm, I'm still not sure about that. Tango doesn't really have any moves, or patterns - every step is improvisational and led. You can't get more improvisational or challenging than that; you have to remain focus and lead continuously, all the time.

And why not 'great'? It is quite popular - isn't it........compared to tango?

In this country yes - but then, McDonald's is the most popular restaurant.

Seriously, popular just means popular. The Sun newspaper, Big Brother, your average Hollywood blockbuster - they're all popular.

Tango is not a "better" dance than MJ - no dances are "better" than others. But AT helps me develop in my dance journey, more than MJ does.

David was saying that he doesn't feel that lead-swapping is great, not that he doesn't feel that Modern Jive is great.

Exactly.

[Chef]

And why not 'great'? It is quite popular - isn't it........compared to tango?

So popular = great then?

That would make Big Brother the greatest TV show ever then. Princess Diana would be the greatest briton that ever lived. The WV beetle the greatest car ever made.

PS With regards to 'Candyman' - mentioned by someone earlier. I wrote in my blog that it was impossible to dance to properly - until Mick (St. Albans teacher - and of the UKs top dancers) did his stuff: this showed the versatility of the form: he did a kind of hip-hop/street interpretation - which worked so well. Ok - of course not everyone could do that - but it showed what can be done within an MJ setting.......

You thought that Candyman was impossible to dance to properly but now you have found out that you were wrong. It is funny how things seem impossible until you see someone that knows more than you doing them.

Do you know which Ceroc class taught Mick this hip hop/street dance? Did he gain his knowledge from within Ceroc or did he gain it elsewhere and bring it into Ceroc/MJ?

I see a whole load of dance knowledge and techniques flowing INTO MJ from other dances but precious little flowing OUT.

[David Bailey]

The very fact that MJ is very loose as a dance form, allows IN THEORY many styles to be incorporated within it, but doing any of these to any decent level requires competency in that dance form. Well, in this 'uber-dance' we would become the best dancers in the whole world -

I think that's the key point.

To truly integrate two styles, you first need to be proficient at both.

Jango only started to make sense to me as a discrete dance form, after I'd grasped some of the basics of AT. If I'd tried Jango without knowing AT, I'd have failed miserably to actually change my underlying dancing technique, I'd just have added some fancy moves to my repertoire. And I suspect that, if you're good at both AT and MJ, then you can create some truly spectacular dancing in an MJ context. In fact, I know you can, because we have the example of Amir to show this. But even then, it's very difficult to work out how to produce an integrated dance style, it takes a lot of time and effort.

Similarly, Viktor is great at salsa, and his dancing style shows elements of both salsa and MJ - again, this marks him out as one of the top MJ dancers around.

In other words, there are no shortcuts - if you want to be a good dancer, you've got to put in the work. If you want to incorporate another dance form into MJ, you have first to be proficient at that dance form, and MJ of course, and then you need to work at the integration.

I see a whole load of dance knowledge and techniques flowing INTO MJ from other dances but precious little flowing OUT.

Another good point - some MJ moves can be adopted into salsa, e.g. the straightjacket, but I can't think of anything from MJ that I've used in AT.

[JiveLad]

David was saying that he doesn't feel that lead-swapping is great, not that he doesn't feel that Modern Jive is great.

Ah ok....personally, I feel lead-swapping IS great. Along with the deeper principles of freedom it also reflects something about gender equality. I suspect/guess that over the next 20 years of evolution, one dimension will be much greater switching of leads and a gradual breaking down of roles. In fact even in my short Ceroc life over the last 18 months I have seen some pointers to this.

PS To DJ - regarding equating popularity with 'greatness'. Sure - it then comes down to semantics and personal taste. The difference between the examples you state (Sun, McDonalds) - is that with MJ - it is YOU the consumer/participant who decides how great it will be......on the dance floor. The equivalent would be: making your own hamburger or writing your own newspaper. So your example and argument is both spurious and fatuous.

[TA Guy]

The very fact that MJ is very loose as a dance form, allows IN THEORY many styles to be incorporated within it, but doing any of these to any decent level requires competency in that dance form. Well, in this 'uber-dance' we would become the best dancers in the whole world -

To truly integrate two styles, you first need to be proficient at both.

Last year's Jivetime Camber, at one time, I was struck by the number of couples trying AT on the dance floor. Must have been the right music. Anyways, with all due respect, they were inexperienced at AT, and to be frank, inexperienced at MJ too. But they were there, mixing dance styles. Do these people not count ?

Standard and competance might have something to do with being 'uber' if the point was to win dance trophies ala Manchester United football club. Thankfully, whilst the salary of a professional footie player would be nice , dance is about all standards. Or should be anyway.

[Raul]

Last year's Jivetime Camber, at one time, I was struck by the number of couples trying AT on the dance floor. Must have been the right music. Anyways, with all due respect, they were inexperienced at AT, and to be frank, inexperienced at MJ too. But they were there, mixing dance styles. Do these people not count ?

Standard and competance might have something to do with being 'uber' if the point was to win dance trophies ala Manchester United football club. Thankfully, whilst the salary of a professional footie player would be nice , dance is about all standards. Or should be anyway.

My understanding of "uber" is that it means "super" as in supermarket for example which contains groceries, butcher shop, fishmongers etc. If also implies an element of quality as in superstar.

To answer your question, of course these people count, in fact they represent a large proportion of the dancing population and are the 'bread and butter' of the 'commercial operators'. If they want a taster for Tango, Salsa, WCS etc., great. They can go to several weekenders and do the same beginners class every time, because they will not be able to learn much and retain much on just these sessions.

If we are talking of MJ in general, given the average dancer as mentioned above, is there not a duty/responsibility to provide them with a dance form that they can master? Do they not feel better if they achieve a level of competence in what they are attempting? If the answer is yes, then MJ cannot be developped into an "uber-dance". Very few of the most talented can aim to be "uber-dancers".

[JiveLad]

My understanding of "uber" is that it means "super" as in supermarket for example which contains groceries, butcher shop, fishmongers etc. If also implies an element of quality as in superstar.

To answer your question, of course these people count, in fact they represent a large proportion of the dancing population and are the 'bread and butter' of the 'commercial operators'. If they want a taster for Tango, Salsa, WCS etc., great. They can go to several weekenders and do the same beginners class every time, because they will not be able to learn much and retain much on just these sessions.

If we are talking of MJ in general, given the average dancer as mentioned above, is there not a duty/responsibility to provide them with a dance form that they can master? Do they not feel better if they achieve a level of competence in what they are attempting? If the answer is yes, then MJ cannot be developped into an "uber-dance". Very few of the most talented can aim to be "uber-dancers".

As I was the person who started this 'über' idea........let me explain what I intended again. My understanding is that the meaning of this word depends on the context - could be 'over'/'super' etc. My intention was not meant in the sense of über in überdancers = super dancers. It was meant more as 'overarching' - ie an umbrella form of dance which could absorb elements from other forms and be applied to the widest variety of music of any dance form. It was not meant to be applied to the dancers themselves.

[TA Guy]

My understanding of "uber" is that it means "super" as in supermarket for example which contains groceries, butcher shop, fishmongers etc. If also implies an element of quality as in superstar.

To answer your question, of course these people count, in fact they represent a large proportion of the dancing population and are the 'bread and butter' of the 'commercial operators'. If they want a taster for Tango, Salsa, WCS etc., great. They can go to several weekenders and do the same beginners class every time, because they will not be able to learn much and retain much on just these sessions.

If we are talking of MJ in general, given the average dancer as mentioned above, is there not a duty/responsibility to provide them with a dance form that they can master? Do they not feel better if they achieve a level of competence in what they are attempting? If the answer is yes, then MJ cannot be developped into an "uber-dance". Very few of the most talented can aim to be "uber-dancers".

So the uber-restaurant is MacDonalds because of it's quality ?

I get what your saying tho, fair enough. An individual dancer might be 'super' to me because of their skill, but we're talking about dance styles and I don't rate different dances by the quality of their superstars as you seem to imply. Besides, it's the 'containing aspects of many dances' - 'over' part that I was originally addressing way back. Different interpretations.