View Poll Results: Is Modern Jive a superset of all partner dances?

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  • Yes, Modern Jive contains all aspects of other dances

    4 19.05%
  • Yes, everything in other dances can be adapted to fit into Modern Jive

    3 14.29%
  • No, there are aspects of other dances that do not fit with Modern Jive

    10 47.62%
  • No, everything in Modern Jive is contained in another dance

    4 19.05%
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Thread: Is Modern Jive an "uber-dance" that contains all the others?

  1. #41
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    Re: Is Modern Jive an "uber-dance" that contains all the others?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I never teach the ladies RLRLRLRL footwork to beginners. I've found that it just confuses them.
    My very limited experience is that it's useful for folks who already know other dances with set footwork, as it gives them information in a language they understand.

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    Re: Is Modern Jive an "uber-dance" that contains all the others?

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    Thankfully, this is changing as learning good technique from another dance often results in importing bad habits with it, for example I have danced with several great MJ followers who became much heavier in their arm connection after learning WCS or started adding Tango footwork without having the connection to indicate to the lead they were altering the timing of the dance.
    Being probably guilty of both , I'd say it's not about exporting bad habits into your MJ, but more about:

    - just trying stuff you like in a different dance in your MJ - hopefully with a very good lead who will compensate for your lack of clarity as you try and develop this (hopefully, up to the point where you will figure out how to do it seamlessly one day... ), i.e. in fact expanding the boundaries of your MJ

    - or in fact deliberately working on a technique that is required in the other dance, to the detriment of your MJ. Especially true of WCS as there aren't many opportunities to practice in WCS freestyle, so MJ nights become a bit of a 'practice ground'. Hence me saying some time ago I don't step back anymore , or over-practicing your frame and 'locking your shoulders' but becoming too heavy... (but that can get fixed later on, as what mattered at the time was to get this as second nature...)

    Hopefully in both cases it's just a learning curve as you develop new dance skills and will get fixed with more practice and experience...

  3. #43
    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
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    Re: Is Modern Jive an "uber-dance" that contains all the others?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post
    I do find it strange that the two of you seem to get into a few 'popcorn' moments on the forum because there seems to be so much commonality of aims between you and what looks to me only slight differences between how you both go about achieving your aims.
    I agree, it's frustrating for both of us too, I'm sure! Andy's responses today have been more measured and went a long way to correct my impression of his classes.

    The only reason we end up involving popcorn is that Andy insists on putting down Ceroc (and other MJ classes) to make himself look better; here's a sample just from the last 24 hours:
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    The frustrating thing is that we get visitors from "a class down the road" who have not benefitted from this style of teaching.
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    That may be the approach that Ceroc take, but it's not the approach of all MJ. We teach footwork, posture, etc from day 1. I'm not in the business of letting people develop bad habits and then getting them to pay for workshops and private lessons to have them corrected.
    None of this is necessary, and I'm always suspicious of anyone trying to look good by making others look bad.
    Franck.

    There's an A.P.P. for that!

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    Re: Is Modern Jive an "uber-dance" that contains all the others?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    "Conversion" workshops?
    I can see the flyer now

    I think that the problem is one of recognition. Sometimes I can see a guy getting something wrong in the lesson. Let's say he's doing a giant step back, locking out his elbows and sticking out his bottom (probably preceded by a giant semi-circle). I say from the stage, "when you step back, do not take a big step back, stay closer together, keep some tension in the arms by keeping the arms slightly bent at the elbow, stay standing upright, " etc etc. Nine times out of ten the guy I've been talking to has no idea I mean him and repeats his bad habit over and over again, no matter how many times I say it from the stage. My conclusion is that they don't realise it's them. Nowadays I say it once, if they don't get it I mark them for an individual coaching session during the freestyle - what I really need is a paintball gun so I can identify them later.

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    Re: Is Modern Jive an "uber-dance" that contains all the others?

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    The only reason we end up involving popcorn is that Andy insists on putting down Ceroc (and other MJ classes) to make himself look better; here's a sample just from the last 24 hours:

    None of this is necessary, and I'm always suspicious of anyone trying to look good by making others look bad.
    FWIW I know Andy and I only know you from the forum and having been in three of your classes and I don't think Andy is trying to put down other classes/organisations in order to make his classes sound good. The reason that I say this is because I am a visitor to many venues and organisations around his area and from what I have seen it is a fairly accurate overview of the majority of classes that I have been to.

    IMHO Andy is not trying to make others look bad, just pointing out what he does that the others do not.

    In Andys area there are at least 5 organisations 'down the road' only one of which (in the last few months) is Ceroc. One of those organistions has such a poor quality of lessons and dancers (as a result) that I cannot concieve of going there even if paid.

    The reason that Andy can survive and thrive in an area where there are 5 competing organistions is because he offers a niche product, and has become known as the place that you go to, if and when, you decide that you want to gain a greater understanding of what you need to do and how to achieve it. If you don't value what Andy has to offer there are many alternatives 'down the road' that operate on the same nights as him yet still he thrives.

    Both you and Andy seem to want the same thing - a better overall standard of dancer by providing the information that people need, and are going about it in seemingly similar ways. Franck, being within the larger organisation of Ceroc can make his voice heard from within that organisation while Andy has to shout from his own soap box. In both your cases the results that you achieve are your best adverts.
    Last edited by Chef; 21st-June-2007 at 01:25 PM.

  6. #46
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    Re: Is Modern Jive an "uber-dance" that contains all the others?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I can see the flyer now
    "Do this class, or you'll get tazered"

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I think that the problem is one of recognition. Sometimes I can see a guy getting something wrong in the lesson. Let's say he's doing a giant step back, locking out his elbows and sticking out his bottom (probably preceded by a giant semi-circle). I say from the stage, "when you step back, do not take a big step back, stay closer together, keep some tension in the arms by keeping the arms slightly bent at the elbow, stay standing upright, " etc etc. Nine times out of ten the guy I've been talking to has no idea I mean him and repeats his bad habit over and over again, no matter how many times I say it from the stage. My conclusion is that they don't realise it's them.
    And this is a classic example of why it's near-impossible to teach technique in a large class - you have to be close, and you have to be able to correct individuals, to teach technique.

    I've never seen a large class being taught technique really successfully - even at weekenders, where some of the top teachers are. So until Ceroc / MJ moves onto a "small-class" model, in a large scale (not just the occasional workshop), you'll only ever be able to teach form-focussed ckasses, not technique-focussed - routines, in other words.

    Extreme example: one of my first technique classes in AT involved walking up and down for an hour - how many beginner MJ-ers would that class attract?

    In my opinion, the best you can achieve, in a large class, is to throw out some hints and tips, and demonstrate some possibilities, which some dancers may be able to follow up on.

  7. #47
    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
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    Re: Is Modern Jive an "uber-dance" that contains all the others?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Extreme example: one of my first technique classes in AT involved walking up and down for an hour - how many beginner MJ-ers would that class attract?
    Around 25 dancers last time I did a 'Focus on walking' 2 hour workshop. Of which I would say 6 or 7 were beginners. You are right that correct technique works better in smaller groups though with hands on approach.
    Franck.

    There's an A.P.P. for that!

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    Re: Is Modern Jive an "uber-dance" that contains all the others?

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    WCS must be 6 or 8 beat patterns (I know this rule can be broken, so it must just be a tip / guideline)
    (emphasis mine)

    West Coast moves, as with Modern Jive, can be of varying lengths (any even number from 4 beats to 20+) and can be adjusted to fit any 4/4 music. So I would say that it is neither a rule, nor a tip, nor a guideline. It is merely a common factor amongst the basic West Coast moves.

    I don't see that Modern Jive is at all unique in having arbitrarilly extensible moves and moves of differing lengths, so I don't see this as a good argument for it being a superset of other dances.

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    Re: Is Modern Jive an "uber-dance" that contains all the others?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    West Coast moves, as with Modern Jive, can be of varying lengths (any even number from 4 beats to 20+) and can be adjusted to fit any 4/4 music. So I would say that it is neither a rule, nor a tip, nor a guideline. It is merely a common factor amongst the basic West Coast moves.
    I agree, but it is presented as a rule in every WCS class I've attended. Of course it's arbitrary, but I expect as a short cut to lead/follow or 'musicality in a box' WCS seems to be taught that way.
    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    I don't see that Modern Jive is at all unique in having arbitrarilly extensible moves and moves of differing lengths, so I don't see this as a good argument for it being a superset of other dances.
    Modern Jive is not unique in having arbitrarily extensible moves at all, as I said, most dances end up having very similar fundamental rules, so yes I agree with you. Other dances limit their Uber potential by narrowing down the music they should be danced to, and enforcing arbitrary fixed patterns of footwork.
    Franck.

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    Re: Is Modern Jive an "uber-dance" that contains all the others?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    In fact, I could see MJ becoming a pure lead and follow dance
    I love that idea, but...

    I did some research (yes, I know I'm now banned from posting, but I hope you'll stilll allow this post).

    Skippy Blair: "Different styles were emerging from all over the country. They had similarities because they all danced to the same MUSIC! Music is the key word here. Dancers have an instinctive response to sound, tempo, and musical interpretation - influenced by the social customs, style of dress, and moral code of the day. Wherever we were - and whatever we called our dancing - it was compatible from coast to coast!"

    Does that not now describe MJ? From ANZ to UK, our dancing is compatible (so we're broader than "coast to coast"; but so is travel easier).


    But consider, after 50 years swing has various recognised forms (and one can even argue MJ is one of those forms [although MJ does not meet the formal definition of swing]). Maybe MJ can become an "uber-dance"; or more likely it will split into various forms, and our grandchildren will be arguing about whether their dance is a separate dance or an uber-dance incorporating UK-MJ, AU-MJ, and NZ-MJ, and maybe even US(Swing).

    Another Skippy quote: "If a Leader doing one form of Swing can dance with a Follower doing another form of Swing -- with only slight adjustments in style and tempo -- then it is Swing."

    Isnt' that (with appropriate word changes [isn't it annoying to have to add clauses just to satisfy the pedants?]) pretty much the current "rule" for MJ?

  11. #51
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    Re: Is Modern Jive an "uber-dance" that contains all the others?

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    Around 25 dancers last time I did a 'Focus on walking' 2 hour workshop. Of which I would say 6 or 7 were beginners. You are right that correct technique works better in smaller groups though with hands on approach.
    Exactly my point - I reckon 25-30 is about the maximum size for technique classes - more than that, it's not worth it.

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    Re: Is Modern Jive an "uber-dance" that contains all the others?

    Interesting thread....

    I have to say though, that I don't believe MJ to have the potential to become any form of 'Uber' dance - more than that, I'd say that about any dance I've seen or tried to any degree - and it's something I really wouldn't want to see.

    I like the fact that Tango has such a rich culture and such close ties to its music. I love the same about Lindy. I love the simplicity of MJ, and the how easy it is to bring in outside styles and dance philosophies - but I'm fully aware that to do that, you have to dilute those styles and philosophies to the point where they are no longer the dance you're adapting - it's a long way from 'encompassing' said outside dance.

    All these dances, MJ included, will continue to evolve and develop - and this is essential if they're to survive and flourish. I just don't think it's even remotely possible to encompass one dance into another without either compromising one or both dances and losing vital parts of what makes them special.

    Time to take a stand, and say No to Uber-dances!

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    Re: Is Modern Jive an "uber-dance" that contains all the others?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    My very limited experience is that it's useful for folks who already know other dances with set footwork, as it gives them information in a language they understand.
    I think this is right. One of the things I've noticed is that dancers from other disciplines ask about the footwork. When I started MJ about 10 years ago I came from a ballroom background and asked the same question - although, at the time, I was quite satisfied with the answer "there isn't any footwork".

    p.s. Ooh er! Me agreeing with Martin Harper - and he seems to have agreed with me too. The world's gone mad, I tell you, completely mad!

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    Re: Is Modern Jive an "uber-dance" that contains all the others?

    Quote Originally Posted by timbp View Post
    [although MJ does not meet the formal definition of swing]
    Only this week Nigel Anderson was telling me that he could clearly prove that MJ is a swing dance. For a few seconds I was worried that he was going to explain why. Now I wish I'd asked.

    I have no doubt that Nigel is correct. I was wondering what the "formal definition" of a swing dance is?

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    Re: Is Modern Jive an "uber-dance" that contains all the others?

    Quote Originally Posted by timbp View Post
    ... [although MJ does not meet the formal definition of swing] ...
    Like Andy, I'm wondering what the formal definition of a swing dance is...

    As I understand it, the definition used for competitions had to be changed a few times until it became this...
    Quote Originally Posted by timbp View Post
    Another Skippy quote: "If a Leader doing one form of Swing can dance with a Follower doing another form of Swing -- with only slight adjustments in style and tempo -- then it is Swing."
    Which is a bit of a circular definition. "If it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck ..."

    Can an average Lindy Hop leader dance with an average WCS follower and make it work? (Or visa-versa?) I don't really know any Lindy Hop, but what I know of it, it is more than a "slight" adjustment of style and tempo away from WCS.

    I would say though that it's not unusual for MJ leaders to be able to lead Lindy and WCS followers, with some adjustment being made mainly by the follower.

    Does this make MJ a swing dance or not?

    I wonder if one of MJ's best competition couples entered a Swing or WCS competition in the US whether they would be thrown out for not being Swing or WCS enough... Hmm...
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Is Modern Jive an "uber-dance" that contains all the others?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post
    FWIW I know Andy and I only know you from the forum and having been in three of your classes and I don't think Andy is trying to put down other classes/organisations in order to make his classes sound good. The reason that I say this is because I am a visitor to many venues and organisations around his area and from what I have seen it is a fairly accurate overview of the majority of classes that I have been to.

    IMHO Andy is not trying to make others look bad, just pointing out what he does that the others do not.

    In Andys area there are at least 5 organisations 'down the road' only one of which (in the last few months) is Ceroc. One of those organistions has such a poor quality of lessons and dancers (as a result) that I cannot concieve of going there even if paid.
    Thank you Chef. I think you've given a great appraisal of my market place. I'd be delighted if the classes around me were better. I might not have started our classes in the first place if there had been a decent class in the area. In the years before we opened up we were making a twice weekly 170 mile round-trip to Ealing. We would never had done this if there'd been somewhere local with good teaching We did, from time to time, attend local classes and dances, but not regularly: usually because we couldn't finish work in time to make a longer journey to a class.

    What prompted us to open up were the coming together of 2 things. The first was that we registered how many miles we'd put on our cars! This journey also resulted in a late night with the resultant difficulty of getting up for work the next day. And the second thing was that the biggest local organiser banned us from his nights because we threw a couple of Friday night parties for our dancing buddies in our village hall (we'd worked out that it was cheaper for us to hire the hall and put on a free dance than it was for petrol to drive to Ealing). This organiser didn't have a Friday night but he claimed that we were now "operators" who affected his business because dancers would be unlikely to attend his dances if they'd attended our party - even though neither one of the parties we threw preceded a local dance!

    So there we were, wearing out our cars and missing sleep to get our dancing fix with no local alternative. So we started our own classes with the long-term view of training up good dancers. This has been harder to do than we could ever have imagined

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post
    The reason that Andy can survive and thrive in an area where there are 5 competing organistions is because he offers a niche product, and has become known as the place that you go to, if and when, you decide that you want to gain a greater understanding of what you need to do and how to achieve it. If you don't value what Andy has to offer there are many alternatives 'down the road' that operate on the same nights as him yet still he thrives.
    I think that most of the other local organisers learnt from the same source and that is why they are all so similar. I never think of ourselves at 'niche'. I certainly don't think we're unique: I think we teach MJ in a similar way to Nigel Anderson, Nicky & Jim, David Plummer, Nelson Rose and many other teachers. It's just that none of those teachers are in our area.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post
    Both you and Andy seem to want the same thing - a better overall standard of dancer by providing the information that people need, and are going about it in seemingly similar ways. Franck, being within the larger organisation of Ceroc can make his voice heard from within that organisation while Andy has to shout from his own soap box. In both your cases the results that you achieve are your best adverts.
    Quite right, my direction is towards improving Modern Jive, be it in the physical world at classes or by giving tips on here. As far as I'm aware, I gain nothing by posting on here in terms of advertising our classes. Very few forumites are from our area. And those that are, like Under Par are only occasional visitors, preferring to travel great distances to obtain their dancing fix - I will really know that we've arrived when Mr & Mrs Par no longer drive past my venue to go somewhere much further afield

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    Re: Is Modern Jive an "uber-dance" that contains all the others?

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    I like Caro's assertion that MJ could become a pure lead/follow dance. That would be sufficient for me as a rule, and whilst not everyone is yet doing that, most people are aware that's how it should be, even if they disagree on what lead/follow means.
    And the other great thing about MJ (which to me makes it again the 'Über' dance form) - is that even the lead-follow can be switched - so the follow becomes the lead - eg hijacking, sabotage - and simple - 'ok you take the lead' or 'i'll take it back now' - as happened to me recently.

    Ok - it's still the principle of lead-follow - (well kind of) - but not many other traditional dance forms allow this switch to happen.

    The other thing is that quite often with some dancers, we delierately break connection and do (ahem) 'disco dancing/boogie' for 5-10 seconds - eg. at an appropriate break - so it doesnt at the point adhere to lead-follow either - it becomes free form....

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    Re: Is Modern Jive an "uber-dance" that contains all the others?

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    My contention is that we can incorporate all the deep and basic techniques from other dances to develop the holy grail of technique that would suit any music or mood. This is a theoretical, possibly utopian vision, but one that I could see happen in the next 20 years.
    Daft question ... WHO WOULD TEACH IT? Certaintly not the CTA.

    Lets get it into perspective. Ceroc teachers are typically non-dancers who have done some modern jive. They have a certain level of MJ experienece but the key factor is personality. Ceroc Teacher 'training' comprsies of 4 days of learning lines and a few movesments by rote. Lets compare this with a PROPER dance teacher. Three years plus at dance school being trained by profesional dance instructors ... with the pre-dependancy that they have dance talent in the first place. Lets compare these two sets of teachers ... who do YOU think will be best able to teach a 'Uber-Dance'?

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    Re: Is Modern Jive an "uber-dance" that contains all the others?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Can an average Lindy Hop leader dance with an average WCS follower and make it work? (Or visa-versa?)
    Sure. For the Lindy leader, it's mostly a case of avoiding rock steps. For the West Coast leader, it's mostly a case of accepting the lack of a strict slot. Neither of these things are too challenging. The ideal song would probably be West Coast tempo with a swung feel; for example, Wade in the Water. However, lots of music would work fine. Oh, and there'd need to be some flexibility in the area of follower play.

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    It's not unusual for MJ leaders to be able to lead Lindy and WCS followers...
    It's not unusual for MJ leaders to be able to lead non-dancers, so I wouldn't read too much into their ability to lead followers of other dances. Modern Jive has a very shallow learning curve for new followers, and I think that's what you're seeing.

    I've regularly danced Modern Jive, Lindy, and now West Coast. I don't know whether Modern Jive is "a swing dance", but I do feel that Lindy and West Coast, whilst different dances, are much closer to each other than either of them are to Modern Jive.

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    Re: Is Modern Jive an "uber-dance" that contains all the others?

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    And the other great thing about MJ (which to me makes it again the 'Über' dance form) - is that even the lead-follow can be switched - so the follow becomes the lead - eg hijacking, sabotage - and simple - 'ok you take the lead' or 'i'll take it back now' - as happened to me recently.
    I've done this in Modern Jive, and also in Lindy and West Coast. I don't know if it happens in other dances.

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    The other thing is that quite often with some dancers, we delierately break connection and do (ahem) 'disco dancing/boogie' for 5-10 seconds - eg. at an appropriate break - so it doesnt at the point adhere to lead-follow either - it becomes free form....
    Shines are common in many dance forms, including Lindy and Salsa.

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