Is Modern Jive an "uber-dance" that contains all the others?

[timbp]

So in a dance context, you would need your partner to have the basic technique of all the dances

But isn't Franck saying the basic technique of all the dances is ultimately the same?

partner dancing, where pretty much regardless of the path you choose, most experts of many years experience tend to come to the same conclusions / set of rules

[StokeBloke]

So in a dance context, you would need your partner to have the basic technique of all the dances you want to use to fit the music at a particular time...

Exactly my point! As an example; I have only just stared on the WCS path, so I am playing with WCS moves within my MJ a bit ATM. That's fine for follows that know some WCS and understand what I'm playing with, but for pure MJ follows with floppy arms it is a recipe for disaster! Well maybe not disaster, as I can quickly switch back to a purer MJ lead. But you get my drift I hope.

I understand that pulling crazy sh1t on follows is asking for blank looks. They are after all expecting a MJ dance. But following on from Franck's point, what is a MJ dance these days... what with blurred edges and all!

[Mac]

but for pure MJ follows with floppy arms it is a recipe for disaster!

Followers with Floppy arms in any dance is a recipe for disaster,

You can only maintain a firm frame if there isa natrual tension feeding from leader to follower, its part of the connection

A good frame will allow you to lead a follower anywhere, no matter what type of dancing you do. (Well almost! )

[spindr]

There's nothing special about MJ -- if you work on it you can transfer almost any technique between nearly all different styles of dance -- but you may only be able to do so with a single partner.

The real issue is to determine which techniques are readily applicable to social dancing in whatever style -- ideally with every partner.

SpinDr

P.S. The only technique that is applicable to all forms of social dancing is of course floorcraft -- a skill that is only rarely taught -- well, in an MJ context.

[Mac]

Ive done Ballroom Dancing, Salsa and even Latin Line Dancing specifically to transfer the footwork, frame and stances into my Modern Jive.

So I guess for me that supports wot Franck is saying.

The more diverse the MJ scene becomes, the more it will encompass = the more dancers will incorporate other styles into it and so on and so on and so on and on and on and on and on

Somebody stop me!!!! Im having a moment! Gotta go to bed!!!

[StokeBloke]

but for pure MJ follows with floppy arms it is a recipe for disaster!

Followers with Floppy arms in any dance is a recipe for disaster,

You can only maintain a firm frame if there isa natrual tension feeding from leader to follower, its part of the connection

A good frame will allow you to lead a follower anywhere, no matter what type of dancing you do. (Well almost! )

I disagree, there are times when a soft arm is needed to allow moves like the pretzel to flow, and in the main, most MJ can be led through lazy arms... but with WCS a lot hangs on the follow's ability to sense the changing needs in tension and supply that on demand (I only site WCS as an example becasue that is my limited knowledge outside of WCS).

[Raul]

Ive done Ballroom Dancing, Salsa and even Latin Line Dancing specifically to transfer the footwork, frame and stances into my Modern Jive.

So I guess for me that supports wot Franck is saying.

The more diverse the MJ scene becomes, the more it will encompass = the more dancers will incorporate other styles into it and so on and so on and so on and on and on and on and on

Somebody stop me!!!! Im having a moment! Gotta go to bed!!!

I have the great respect for Frank's dedication and skill. Maybe he can see his own development going this way but i am certain that he will be one of the very few who achieves this, I cannot see many dancers progressing to that level.

Blues style dancing has been around MJ for a while now, but i would say that only a small percentage of dancers can dance blues competently and their individual style is so varied that an observer would say that they are dancing completely different stuff. Throw in many other dances techniques and styles and the chances of getting your follower to perform the figure you intended reduce significantly. In blues, may be she can do her own thing and this is part of the style, in other styles there is much less room for imprecision.

"Uber-dance" or "Tower of Babel"? Good Luck.

[TA Guy]

I don't know what uber-dance really means but if that somehow means the dance that encompasses or contains all other styles, well, it's pretty much on the road already. At by local freestyle I see MJ, WCS, Ballroom/Tango, Argentinian Tango, Lindy, Blues, Cha Cha Cha, Salsa; Those are just the ones I can identify. I see people actually dancing those dances, and just applying the 'style' of those dances or taking individual moves/movements. I see people incorporating those dances into their MJ and teaching other dancers how to do that.
And this is just my local freestyle! Heaven know the range that's out there in the whole country.

And standard or competance, or level of technique are completely irrelevent. Those are a requirement of a skilled dancer, not a requirement of The Dance (any dance).

So, yes, I would agree in that sense. No other dance encompasses or contains so much. Or has as much potential. If there is a uber-dance, I wouldn't be surprized if MJ was the one.
MJ is like 'The Borg' of the dance world. We assimulate anything we fancy

[Caro]

But isn't Franck saying the basic technique of all the dances is ultimately the same?

yes, that's Franck's point, and as I said

Yes you could argue that ultimately, it doesn't matter if you've never done the dance as all techniques should in theory allow you to sharpen your lead and follow to a degree that would allow you total freedom... in practice though, I struggle to see that happening... but again, this could only be a reflection of my own limitations.

I understand that pulling crazy sh1t on follows is asking for blank looks. They are after all expecting a MJ dance. But following on from Franck's point, what is a MJ dance these days... what with blurred edges and all!

In fact, I could see MJ becoming a pure lead and follow dance, probably to a degree that other dances don't achieve (because they rely too much on set of rules and moves). Now how far away are we from this and is this a realistic vision (i.e. something that the mass, not just a few, could achieve)...

[Franck]

In fact, I could see MJ becoming a pure lead and follow dance, probably to a degree that other dances don't achieve (because they rely too much on set of rules and moves). Now how far away are we from this and is this a realistic vision (i.e. something that the mass, not just a few, could achieve)...

If it can be led, then MJ should be able to incorporate it.
I think that once you strip out all the traditions and conventions of most dances, technique is not as complex as you would first think. It would still take some time, and I'm not sure that for MJ to realise its potential it needs everyone to become excellent dancers, simply that the opportunity is there for those that want to develop their skills. I would hate to make MJ less accessible by building minimum standards. Walking the fine line between remaining a freestyle social dance and improving lead/follow/connection technique across the board is the real difficulty.

I have only just stared on the WCS path, so I am playing with WCS moves within my MJ a bit ATM. That's fine for follows that know some WCS and understand what I'm playing with, but for pure MJ follows with floppy arms it is a recipe for disaster! Well maybe not disaster, as I can quickly switch back to a purer MJ lead. But you get my drift I hope.

I don't subscribe to your assumption that 'pure MJ follows' have floppy arms. Poor connection and technique is present in all dances, even when drummed in from first class. What you're saying is that it's easier for you to experiment with new moves and concepts with better followers, but that's obvious.

I agree that we should give better technique to everyone in MJ and develop standards across the board. Beginners are very receptive to it provided they are taught in small groups (workshops, private lessons or the focus classes I ran on Sundays). In the meantime, as a lead, there are many techniques you can learn that do not rely on your partner giving you much if any connection, so you can lead most (WCS / Tango / Ballroom) patterns even with someone who has poor technique.

[Franck]

I have the great respect for Frank's dedication and skill. Maybe he can see his own development going this way but i am certain that he will be one of the very few who achieves this, I cannot see many dancers progressing to that level.

If it were only me, then I would agree, as you said Blues took ages to spread, because it was only a couple of teachers trying to spread the word.

Thankfully however, being part of a large organisation (Ceroc ) I am hoping to be able to propagate good technique via other teachers. Marc, SimonR, PaulF and many more are already doing it, and Drathzel in Northern Ireland is thinking of starting Focus classes to introduce fundamental technique to their dancers. Nothing will happen overnight, but given time and the opportunities of a nationwide organisation with centralised training, it's far from impossible.

[Marc Forster]

I have the great respect for Frank's dedication and skill. Maybe he can see his own development going this way but i am certain that he will be one of the very few who achieves this, I cannot see many dancers progressing to that level.

In the short time since starting MJ, I have noticed a significant change in the overall standard of dancers. Six or seven years ago, the rate of improvement for both leaders and followers would by todays standards seem laughably slow.

Observing the difference between Wednesday night Ashtons compared to the majority of other venues some years back, it's fair to say that the general standard of lead and follow seemed much higher. New members would pick up on this standard as a general benchmark and progress at what seemed like lightening speed. It's not that the Ashtons dancers were any more blessed or talented than anywhere else, they were reflecting on what they could see and feel.

Fast forward to where we are now. Weekenders, workshops, Blues rooms and the internet. It's a different world. The chances are that anyone joining the world of Modern Jive will have so much more incentive to stay. The longer you stay, the more you learn and the more you share with others. There is every reason to expect a positive outcome.

These are changes within the past few years. I can't imagine how Franck must feel after 15 years in the business. I do understand his positivity though.I believe it is possible to create the right environment for everyone to experience Nirvana.

[Chef]

:
I agree that we should give better technique to everyone in MJ and develop standards across the board. Beginners are very receptive to it provided they are taught in small groups (workshops, private lessons or the focus classes I ran on Sundays). In the meantime, as a lead, there are many techniques you can learn that do not rely on your partner giving you much if any connection, so you can lead most (WCS / Tango / Ballroom) patterns even with someone who has poor technique.

I also agree with you about giving better technique (or at the very least making training available) to everyone in MJ. For all the cross word between Franck and Andy MacGregor I believe they both have the same aim - to introduce good technique from as early as possible. My contribution to an the them of these threads (which have now split in every direction) was to question how a dance that seems to pride itself in having no rules was claiming to have a 'framework'. Dancers are reportingon these thread that they have gone off to other styles to learn techniques that they have then brought back into MJ which, to my mind at least is very different to learning them within the MJ eviroment. If you could learn these techniques within MJ why would people need to go out to other styles to get the training?

As for leading people with poor technique I am taking 6 people along to Ceroc tonight to show them what goes on and possibly encourage them to start. I would be impressed if you could lead them in WCS/Tango/Ballroom. I would be even more impressed if the leaders (with no experience or technique) could lead good followers.

Thankfully however, being part of a large organisation (Ceroc ) I am hoping to be able to propagate good technique via other teachers. Marc, SimonR, PaulF and many more are already doing it, and Drathzel in Northern Ireland is thinking of starting Focus classes to introduce fundamental technique to their dancers. Nothing will happen overnight, but given time and the opportunities of a nationwide organisation with centralised training, it's far from impossible.

This is the first thing I have heard that makes me feel hopeful. As you say, nothing will happen overnight but you have the organisation that can move things forward should it choose to. In my locality the idea for such a move was proposed but rejected so I will not be holding my breath, but if it is driven nationally then perhaps it may reach here.

I see lots of workshops and DVDs advertised for all sorts of things like drops, blues, moves, more moves, latin moves, but absolutely nothing on connection, musicailty, lead and follow, how to spin. If you want to learn these things specifically it seems you must travel to Franck or Andy (anyone else offering these classes feel free to put your hands up). I would think that the ability to spin would be absolutely fundemental for followers from day 1but no one actually tells them HOW to do it.

This is where Franck and Andy seem to differ in opinion, as far as I can see. Franck seems to see these things as desirable once the new dancer has been engaged fully in the dance while Andy sees them as a required foundationfrom day one and incorporates specific training in all his classes. If a move requires a technique then that technique is taught alongside the move. Please feel free to correct me, because I am, as always, just trying to fully understand how things are.

[Franck]

My contribution to an the them of these threads (which have now split in every direction) was to question how a dance that seems to pride itself in having no rules was claiming to have a 'framework'. Dancers are reportingon these thread that they have gone off to other styles to learn techniques that they have then brought back into MJ which, to my mind at least is very different to learning them within the MJ eviroment. If you could learn these techniques within MJ why would people need to go out to other styles to get the training?

I think saying MJ has no rules is the same as saying that MJ has no footwork. What is meant is that it has no fixed rules / footwork. There are plenty of rules, some of which are still being developed (or imported from other dances). My current absolute rule is to separate 'connection' from 'lead/follow', if you can establish a constant connection (not an emotional one) then you can lead whatever you wish using body/arm/foot lead etc...
Currently MJ dancers look for technique outside of MJ because as you correctly pointed out, there are too few teachers who have the expertise or desire to teach technique. Thankfully, this is changing as learning good technique from another dance often results in importing bad habits with it, for example I have danced with several great MJ followers who became much heavier in their arm connection after learning WCS or started adding Tango footwork without having the connection to indicate to the lead they were altering the timing of the dance.

As for leading people with poor technique I am taking 6 people along to Ceroc tonight to show them what goes on and possibly encourage them to start. I would be impressed if you could lead them in WCS/Tango/Ballroom. I would be even more impressed if the leaders (with no experience or technique) could lead good followers.

Well I dance with many beginners several times a week, and can consistently lead WCS or Tango patterns with them, regarding of experience and even with new dancers who seem to have done some other dancing and lead themselves. It really is possible. I take your point about Beginner leads, their learning curve is much steeper.

This is where Franck and Andy seem to differ in opinion, as far as I can see. Franck seems to see these things as desirable once the new dancer has been engaged fully in the dance while Andy sees them as a required foundationfrom day one and incorporates specific training in all his classes. If a move requires a technique then that technique is taught alongside the move. Please feel free to correct me, because I am, as always, just trying to fully understand how things are.

I think you misrepresented me here, I'm keen to teach good technique as it is required and from the outset. I include a lot of stuff on connection and frame in my Beginners classes, for example I make everyone do the rotate shoulders back thing to improve 'inner frame' at the start of most move in the Beginners class as it makes a huge difference, relaxes them and helps in their connection. I am however trying to avoid what I would call 'technical strawmen', things that sound technical and make the teacher appear authoritative but are ultimately inaccurate or confusing for Beginners (the RLRLRLRL footwork for example)

[Andy McGregor]

This is where Franck and Andy seem to differ in opinion, as far as I can see. Franck seems to see these things as desirable once the new dancer has been engaged fully in the dance while Andy sees them as a required foundationfrom day one and incorporates specific training in all his classes. If a move requires a technique then that technique is taught alongside the move. Please feel free to correct me, because I am, as always, just trying to fully understand how things are.

This is correct as far as I'm concerned, Franck will have to speak for himself on this subject.

In a normal week-night class I do not labour the technique stuff, but I start every beginners lesson with a short session on connection with the guys leading the lady in and out using the open hand hold. And, during the teach of each move I give a tip or two on the correct technique to lead, turn, spin, etc.

After running our classes for almost 3 years I now have a group of students who are dancing in a smooth way as that's all they've ever known. The frustrating thing is that we get visitors from "a class down the road" who have not benefitted from this style of teaching. It's really easy to pick them out as they bounce and semi-circle and over-turn and wobble on the wrong foot, and, and, and ...

Even more frustratingly, these dancers of little technique join in with the intermediate lesson

When I chat with these visitors I get the same story. They've been dancing at the "class down the road" for 6 - 18 months and had reached a plateau with their dancing. Somebody had told them that they should come to our classes to "learn how to do MJ properly". I'm always flattered, and slightly humbled by this It's great to see these badly trained dancers coming in from the cold, but it's also frustrating to have them in our intermediate lesson with their giant step backs, locked out elbows, broken frames, sticking out bottoms, etc, etc, etc Has anybody got a suggestion about how I could integrate these dancers in a nice, caring, sharing way (when what I feel like doing is using a Tazer on them and piling their twitching bodies in the car park )?

[Andy McGregor]

I am however trying to avoid what I would call 'technical strawmen', things that sound technical and make the teacher appear authoritative but are ultimately inaccurate or confusing for Beginners (the RLRLRLRL footwork for example)

I think Franck is right about the technical stuff for beginners. My objective for beginners is to hide the technical stuff within the lesson. I think of Mary Poppins and the spoonful of sugar. The first thing is that I don't tell them it's technique - they're even more likely to take the spoonful of sugar if they didn't know there was medicine in it.

And I never teach the ladies RLRLRLRL footwork to beginners. I've found that it just confuses them. But, what I do is make sure the ladies start on the correct foot at the beginning of a move by saying and demonstrating, "ladies step back RL guys step back LR". Hopefully this primes the pump for the correct footwork for the rest of them move. I do not expect people to get correct technique in the first week or even the first 6 weeks, but I want to make sure they are not picking up bad habits and that their first step in the journey is taken with the correct foot

[David Bailey]

I think saying MJ has no rules is the same as saying that MJ has no footwork. What is meant is that it has no fixed rules / footwork.

Surely, by definition, a rule is fixed? If it's not fixed (mandatory), then it's not a rule, more a tip / guideline?

For example, one rule in salsa is that moves fit into the musical clave structure. A rule in AT might be that you follow the line of dance in a milonga.

Sure, there are exceptions - but they're both pretty fundamental rules, almost all teachers would agree on them.

There are plenty of rules, some of which are still being developed (or imported from other dances).

Unless they're agreed by all MJ-ers, then they're not rules, they're guidelines / tips.

My current absolute rule is to separate 'connection' from 'lead/follow', if you can establish a constant connection (not an emotional one) then you can lead whatever you wish using body/arm/foot lead etc...

Good tip

Currently MJ dancers look for technique outside of MJ because as you correctly pointed out, there are too few teachers who have the expertise or desire to teach technique. Thankfully, this is changing as learning good technique from another dance often results in importing bad habits with it, for example I have danced with several great MJ followers who became much heavier in their arm connection after learning WCS or started adding Tango footwork without having the connection to indicate to the lead they were altering the timing of the dance.

Yes, I've encountered both those - more the WCS than AT, as of course AT followers are inherently better...

For what it's worth, my few attempts to teach AT to Ceroc-ers came smashing against the "We want moves!" mentality - any attempts to get them to practice technique (for example, by leading a sidestep) were met with either incomprehension or with boredom. (then again, this was at Finchley... ). So I a teacher who can put the effort in to teaching technique; it's mainly a thankless task.

[Chef]

Many thanks to both Franck and Andy for your replies and I can say that I now feel I understand both your postions more clearly.

I do find it strange that the two of you seem to get into a few 'popcorn' moments on the forum because there seems to be so much commonality of aims between you and what looks to me only slight differences between how you both go about achieving your aims.

The only problem that I have is that MJ teachers that have the same aims and passion as you two are too few and far between. Your message is clear but your voices, sadly, can only carry so far.

I would love to see a full range of technique workshops available at every weekender. Most people don't try to change something because they don't know that it needs fixing.

[David Bailey]

Has anybody got a suggestion about how I could integrate these dancers in a nice, caring, sharing way (when what I feel like doing is using a Tazer on them and piling their twitching bodies in the car park )?

"Conversion" workshops?

[Franck]

Surely, by definition, a rule is fixed? If it's not fixed (mandatory), then it's not a rule, more a tip / guideline?

That's just semantics but I take the point. Maybe MJ rules are fixed but are more general, i.e. Salsa moves must fit within the musical clave structure, WCS must be 6 or 8 beat patterns (I know this rule can be broken, so it must just be a tip / guideline), MJ moves are of varying lengths and can be adjusted to fit any musical structure!
Most of the 'Rules' of dance tend to be ignored as dancers become better, so I guess they are only guidelines too.

I like Caro's assertion that MJ could become a pure lead/follow dance. That would be sufficient for me as a rule, and whilst not everyone is yet doing that, most people are aware that's how it should be, even if they disagree on what lead/follow means.