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Thread: Is Ceroc now just WCS in disguise ?

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    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Is Ceroc now just WCS in disguise ?

    I guess now that ceroc is promoting WCS and offering classes, with Utopia and other spin offs we have now a ‘brand’ that’s should be called 'ceroc’ . Bit like Virgin

    Ceroc (the dance) should now be called ‘modern jive’ and the brand ‘ceroc’ can promote other dance styles ?.

    I’m not against this, just interesting to see what happens in the next few years ?

    WCS franchise anyone ? ,next door to ceroc franchsie , now that would be interesting and don’t pretend there different group of people who would attend ??

    Has ceroc had its day as a dance style ?

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    Re: Is Ceroc now just WCS in disguise ?

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    I guess now that ceroc is promoting WCS and offering classes, with Utopia and other spin offs we have now a ‘brand’ that’s should be called 'ceroc’ . Bit like Virgin

    Ceroc (the dance) should now be called ‘modern jive’ and the brand ‘ceroc’ can promote other dance styles ?.

    I’m not against this, just interesting to see what happens in the next few years ?

    WCS franchise anyone ? ,next door to ceroc franchsie , now that would be interesting and don’t pretend there different group of people who would attend ??

    Has ceroc had its day as a dance style ?
    IMHO MJ will always be much more popular than WCS. The barriers to entry are so much lower.

    Do I think Ceroc is disguised WCS? Most people know what I think of the dancers Ceroc produce. Nothing in their dancing says WCS to me

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    Registered User Spiky Steve's Avatar
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    Re: Is Ceroc now just WCS in disguise ?

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Has ceroc had its day as a dance style ?
    Ceroc is the the name , MJ is the dance.

    WCS is smooth but there are no dips or drops, no aerials?, you don't get close like in Blues which is another a flavour of MJ.

    MJ can also be styled for Latin and it can have double trouble. You can fake salsa and even WCS to a degree.

    MJ is unlimited fun to unlimited music.

    WCS doesn't come close for me although I would like to learn it one day.

    Steve

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    Re: Is Ceroc now just WCS in disguise ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiky Steve View Post
    WCS is smooth but there are no dips or drops, no aerials?, you don't get close like in Blues which is another a flavour of MJ.

    MJ can also be styled for Latin and it can have double trouble. You can fake salsa and even WCS to a degree.
    WCS can include dips, drops aerials, (although usually only seen at showcase level) and plenty of UCP. I've often seen it done as double trouble, and it can adapt to include other dance styles (eg Swango).

    For me, a great dance in WCS is rarer & harder to achieve than in MJ, but when I do get there, with the way it feels & the association between the music and dance, MJ doesn't come close.

    Greg

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Is Ceroc now just WCS in disguise ?

    Loosely speaking, you might think of WCS as a strict subset of MJ, as pretty much everything you can do in WCS can be done in the framework of MJ.

    That said, the extra rules that WCS add to the dance do tend to keep it smooth and sexy, which can't be said for all MJ dances and dancers.

    Men (being the majority of leaders) don't need to learn WCS to be smooth and sexy - as leaders it's in their own control. Women (being the majority of followers), if they long for smooth and sexy, go and learn WCS but are then disappointed about the lack of men...

    (All in my humble, but maybe slightly warped, opinion. )
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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Is Ceroc now just WCS in disguise ?

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    WCS franchise anyone ? ,next door to ceroc franchsie , now that would be interesting and don’t pretend there different group of people who would attend ??
    Before Ceroc becomes WCS wouldn't Ceroc instructors have to learn how to teach tension & compression and the dancers learn how to apply it?

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    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Re: Is Ceroc now just WCS in disguise ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Before Ceroc becomes WCS wouldn't Ceroc instructors have to learn how to teach tension & compression and the dancers learn how to apply it?
    Isn't that assuming WCS teachers know how to (successfully) teach tension and compression

    That is without the advantage of a small deeply interested group of people to teach to.

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    Re: Is Ceroc now just WCS in disguise ?

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo View Post
    Isn't that assuming WCS teachers know how to (successfully) teach tension and compression

    That is without the advantage of a small deeply interested group of people to teach to.
    A fair number of the dancers Chris, our local instructor, has been teaching had little or no concept of T&C before he started. I'm not saying they all do now, but at least they are making progression. I've danced with many of these dancers before and the difference is notiable. None of the local MJ instrcutors have achieved this, including myslef ... unless its been through owrkshops. T&C may be mentioned by MJ instuctors but I've not seen any of them teach it adequately from stage ... and even the local instructors who claim they are should dance with their own studenst to know the truth of it.

    PS ... The points expressed above apply only to my home area. I can't make any comment for MJ instruction anywhere else in the UK.

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    Registered User NZ Monkey's Avatar
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    Re: Is Ceroc now just WCS in disguise ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    IMHO MJ will always be much more popular than WCS. The barriers to entry are so much lower.

    Do I think Ceroc is disguised WCS? Most people know what I think of the dancers Ceroc produce. Nothing in their dancing says WCS to me


    Quote Originally Posted by Sheepman
    For me, a great dance in WCS is rarer & harder to achieve than in MJ, but when I do get there, with the way it feels & the association between the music and dance, MJ doesn't come close.
    I've found that after dancing WCS a while it was harder to have a really satisfying MJ dance - mainly because my bar had been raised regarding expectations. So I agree with you, and don't. All at the same time. Me...fickle?

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo
    Isn't that assuming WCS teachers know how to (successfully) teach tension and compression

    That is without the advantage of a small deeply interested group of people to teach to.
    What?! Assume that a teacher might need to know what they're doing?! Burn the heretic!

    Seriously, you could teach WCS in the same kind of shoddy* manner that MJ is usually (not always, but usually) taught in. The problem then is that it would just be horribly confusing for the punter as they'd wind up with all of the tricky footwork in the patterns and none of the technique to make it easy. I don't think that would be very successful in the long term as MJ would have everything the WCS did and be easier, better established and better supported.

    *Where shoddy is in comparison to dance styles that have a large number of professionals teaching at a social level. Or just having professionals at all for that matter....

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    Re: Is Ceroc now just WCS in disguise ?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post


    I've found that after dancing WCS a while it was harder to have a really satisfying MJ dance - mainly because my bar had been raised regarding expectations. So I agree with you, and don't. All at the same time. Me...fickle?

    What?! Assume that a teacher might need to know what they're doing?! Burn the heretic!

    Seriously, you could teach WCS in the same kind of shoddy* manner that MJ is usually (not always, but usually) taught in. The problem then is that it would just be horribly confusing for the punter as they'd wind up with all of the tricky footwork in the patterns and none of the technique to make it easy. I don't think that would be very successful in the long term as MJ would have everything the WCS did and be easier, better established and better supported.

    *Where shoddy is in comparison to dance styles that have a large number of professionals teaching at a social level. Or just having professionals at all for that matter....
    Here Here!!

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    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: Is Ceroc now just WCS in disguise ?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post

    I've found that after dancing WCS a while it was harder to have a really satisfying MJ dance - mainly because my bar had been raised regarding expectations. So I agree with you, and don't. All at the same time. Me...fickle?
    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    :Seriously, you could teach WCS in the same kind of shoddy* manner that MJ is usually (not always, but usually) taught in.
    Why do we get this impression that WCS dancers fill superior

    Ceroc is successful because its easy to learn (relatively)

    Remove that and your going to loose a large base of existing and future customers !

    Im sorry Jivers cant give you a 'satisfying dance any more' some of us make a nice cup of tea

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Is Ceroc now just WCS in disguise ?

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Why do we get this impression that WCS dancers fill superior
    I don't - he's just saying that he expects more from a dance now, as his bar has been raised.

    WCS is not a "better" dance, but clearly is more difficult to master, so forces dancers, on the whole, to develop their skills more. So, a years' worth of learning WCS will develop your dance skills more than a year's worth of MJ, because you have to learn more. The same applies to other dance forms, salsa, tango, ballroom etc.

    That's not to say that any one dance is "better" or even "easier" in general - just that some dances have steeper learning curves than others. That's hardly controversial.

    But, having said that, I'd also like to know what parts of MJ teaching NZ Monkey thinks are "shoddy"? I wouldn't use that word - I'd say "basic", maybe, but the overall standard of teaching in MJ, largely thanks to Ceroc, isn't too bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Im sorry Jivers cant give you a 'satisfying dance any more' some of us make a nice cup of tea
    I could do with one, coffee machine at work is

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    Re: Is Ceroc now just WCS in disguise ?

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Why do we get this impression that WCS dancers fill superior

    Ceroc is successful because its easy to learn (relatively)

    Remove that and your going to loose a large base of existing and future customers !

    Im sorry Jivers cant give you a 'satisfying dance any more' some of us make a nice cup of tea
    Hey stewart i do WCS but i totally agree mj is easy to learn but Ive had some awesome mj dances (very bluesy ones i might add).

    Now from a personal opinion whether im doing, wcs, mj,cha.tango,anything, what makes a great (or satisfying) dance for me is the hold/confidence/strength/connection of the lead. I think in many cases (but not all) this type of thing would not be taught in a mj class.
    Once you have had that type of dance it does raise your 'bar' or expectations a little bit.

    I will dance with anyone and everyone and im satisfied because im dancing full stop!

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    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Is Ceroc now just WCS in disguise ?

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Why do we get this impression that WCS dancers fill superior
    No Stewart, you've got it entirely wrong...


    ...we 'feel' superior!
    MODERATOR AT YOUR SERVICE
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    Re: Is Ceroc now just WCS in disguise ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Loosely speaking, you might think of WCS as a strict subset of MJ, as pretty much everything you can do in WCS can be done in the framework of MJ.

    That said, the extra rules that WCS add to the dance do tend to keep it smooth and sexy, which can't be said for all MJ dances and dancers.

    Men (being the majority of leaders) don't need to learn WCS to be smooth and sexy - as leaders it's in their own control. Women (being the majority of followers), if they long for smooth and sexy, go and learn WCS but are then disappointed about the lack of men...

    (All in my humble, but maybe slightly warped, opinion. )
    I'm inclined to agree (from very little knowledge of WCS) with all of this - in particular that WCS is a subset of MJ (which imho is the 'uber' dance - above ALL others). I love to watch WCS and a few months ago I did aspire to learning it - not so sure now.......it seems quite a big investment of time for little reward........versus 'going smooth within MJ'.

    PS - Moderators - could you clean up the unnecessary posts in this interesting thread - ie the stuff about coffee/tea.......it's drivel....

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    Re: Is Ceroc now just WCS in disguise ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Loosely speaking, you might think of WCS as a strict subset of MJ, as pretty much everything you can do in WCS can be done in the framework of MJ.
    I would be very interested to get your opinion as to what the framework of MJ is (since everyone else on the thread is serving refreshments).

    MJ doesn't seem to teach footwork, connection, frame, lead and follow, musicality, posture or anything that could be called an underlying technique that makes MJ uniquely MJ.

    It seems to me that the complete lack of 'framework' is what make MJ able to import elements of other dance styles into itself, provided it strips out inconvenient elements of techinique from that dance style.

    Lindy hop is often imported into MJ with the triple steps removed. Cha Cha is imported with the hip action removed. AT is often imported with the body and frame lead removed. WCS is often imported into MJ with the elasticty, compression, triple steps, slot, and musicality removed.

    I am just waiting for the day when waltz is imported into MJ without the rise and fall.

    So if anyone can actually tell me what 'framework' there is in MJ I would be glad to be properly informed.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Is Ceroc now just WCS in disguise ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    I'm inclined to agree (from very little knowledge of WCS) with all of this - in particular that WCS is a subset of MJ (which imho is the 'uber' dance - above ALL others).
    I know even less about WCS, but I'd definitely disagree on that one.

    Firstly, WCS isn't a subset of MJ. WCS culture may be a subset of MJ culture, in the UK, but the dances are different. Cousins, at best - they both share some of the same roots (Lindy), but that's about it.

    Remember, WCS has been going strong in the USA for quite some time now - up to 50 years, by some accounts.

    Secondly, MJ is no more an "uber dance" than something like hustle is - it can adopt some parts of other dance techniques, sure, but that doesn't mean you can do WCS and call it "a bit of MJ".

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    I love to watch WCS and a few months ago I did aspire to learning it - not so sure now.......it seems quite a big investment of time for little reward........versus 'going smooth within MJ'.
    Almost any dance takes more effort to learn than MJ - but you get more out of it. IMO, it's almost impossible to become a top-flight dancer through learning MJ alone - most of the great dancers you see in MJ will have done one or more other dance forms.

    As always, it depends what you want to achieve.

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    PS - Moderators - could you clean up the unnecessary posts in this interesting thread - ie the stuff about coffee/tea.......it's drivel....
    That'll be the drivel from myself, Lory and Tiggerbabe then?

    Besides, I'm thirsty. Hurry up, Stewart...
    Last edited by David Bailey; 20th-June-2007 at 01:35 PM.

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    Re: Is Ceroc now just WCS in disguise ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheepman View Post
    WCS can include dips, drops aerials
    Greg
    Didn't realise WCS could include dips and drops. I think Cat told me otherwise at one of her classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post


    I've found that after dancing WCS a while it was harder to have a really satisfying MJ dance.
    I have found that dancing with people who are learning WCS really messes up their follow in regards to MJ. It become hard and uncomfortable. It messes up the dance and some of my previously favourite dancers have become not so good to dance with at MJ. Still! there are loads more

    Is it a case that you have to sacrifice a good MJ dance for a good WCS dance?

    Steve

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    Registered User NZ Monkey's Avatar
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    Re: Is Ceroc now just WCS in disguise ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    I don't - he's just saying that he expects more from a dance now, as his bar has been raised.


    But, having said that, I'd also like to know what parts of MJ teaching NZ Monkey thinks are "shoddy"? I wouldn't use that word - I'd say "basic", maybe, but the overall standard of teaching in MJ, largely thanks to Ceroc, isn't too bad.
    I did throw a couple of pretty significant qualifiers in there. I stand by the statement that much of the teaching in MJ comes across as being shoddy in comparison to long established dance forms with professionals teaching at a grass roots level. Case in point would be Southport, where two of the big names in WCS were bought in to teach dancers of all abilities. Similarly with Rebel Yell last year (Sarah and Kyle) and (I think) the previous Southport (Parker and Jessica).

    I shudder every time I hear a teacher telling the leaders they need be strong and move the lady places. It encourages them to be rough when clear and decisive is what is really meant. When was the last time you heard a MJ teacher mention how to maintain a good frame and how to lead from the centre as much as possible(and when was the time before that)?

    I don't think it's all rubbish. I didn't say that it is. I made a statement with a couple of serious qualifiers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stewart38
    Why do we get this impression that WCS dancers fill superior
    Because you'll read into anything just far enough to hear what you want to justify your opinion and stop there?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stewart38
    Ceroc is successful because its easy to learn (relatively)

    Remove that and your going to loose a large base of existing and future customers !
    How, and this isn't just a rhetorical question, does this relate to anything I actually said?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stweart38
    Im sorry Jivers cant give you a 'satisfying dance any more' some of us make a nice cup of tea
    Where did I say they "can't" give me a satisfying dance Stewart? I said it was harder to have one now than before I started WCS. Those are hardly the same thing, and I know I'm not alone.

    NZ Monkey gets up on his soap box, cracks his knuckles and assumes the ranting pose......the one where he keeps a banana hidden behind his back with his tail because he knows this will take a while and he might get hungry.

    Limiting myself only to forumites (so that this might hold some meaning for you) I have had absolutely fantastic MJ dances that I can think of off the top of my head, at midnight here, in no particular order with:

    Lory, Limpytimk, CeeCee, Cutey, Sparkles, LisaS, Spikeyblonde, MsFab, Tessalicious (still number one ), Alice, Freya, Caro, Little Monkey, LilyB, Nina (ok, she isn't a forumite - but everyone knows her anyway), Tiggerbabe and angelblue. I'm sure there are more who will come to me after I click the submit button as well and they will hate me for not including their name. I apologise in advance.*please don't hurt me*

    There's quite a few people there, and even that's just a limited sample. Here's the kicker though....all of these people, with the possible exception of Freya, have significant backgrounds with more formal dance training than plain old MJ. The only other common factor is that they're all women and I think we can disregard that for the purposes of this conversation.

    I find it very difficult to believe that this is just a coincidence. (the first part, not that they're all women...)

    I know most of us say that we enjoy dancing with good dancers. I'll go a step further and say that I enjoy dancing with people who listen very closely to subtle signals in a lead, who don't anticipate, who don't travel in random directions needlessly, who keep an eye out for obstacles behind me, who can signal that they want control of the lead to play with something and give it back seamlessly when they're done. I enjoy dancing with people who are happy to hang out and grove for a bar so we can phrase ourselves to the music. I enjoy dancing with people who know what a musical phrase is. I enjoy dancing with people who maintain their own balance at all (practical) times and don't use me as a human handbreak, who keep their arms up in close turns so I can lead them from the body (and not risk breaking my nose with their elbows) and who do their part in maintaining a good physical and emotional connection with me throughout the dance. It's also nice if they smell like strawberries, and I'd quite like a pony too.

    MJ is not great at teaching finer points like the ones I've just mentioned, but it's these finer points that add the real polish to dance which makes it feel and look great. I find dances that feels and look great more satisfying than those that don't most of the time. I know..... I'm selfish and should be punished for it.

    At no point did I say that MJ'ers can't give me a satisfying dance. Plenty can, and to suggest otherwise is untrue garbage. The majority of the people who have done so in the past have learned the polish despite the way MJ is taught rather than because of it though.

    If you feel that this makes me view MJ as an inferior dance then I won't sugar coat it - I do view it that way in some ways (as noted above).

    What this doesn't mean is that I think there is no value in it. Plenty of people are in it for more social reasons than I am. Plenty of people don't want to push themselves into the more demanding aspects of technique, even if they are aware of some of the things out there. Lots of people just want the exercise and the fun. These are all entirely respectable goals and I there's more than enough room on the dance floor for everyone (unless it's fulham ). MJ caters to a (very large) niche market and I only have one foot in the target demographic. I accept this happily.

    It doesn't mean I don't dance with beginners. It doesn't mean I'll snob anyone who doesn't come up to some sort of imaginary standard. It doesn't mean I never have fun dancing with people who are not top dancers. It means I'm honest about what makes a dance extra special and satisfying to me.

    NZ Monkey gets off his soapbox and puts the banana skin in the trash where it belongs

    I know this post has gone significantly outside the strict topics that DavidJames and Stewart38 were referring too and so anything said on the soapbox should be considered a rant to the world at large rather than any individuals
    Last edited by NZ Monkey; 20th-June-2007 at 01:46 PM.

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    Re: Is Ceroc now just WCS in disguise ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    No Stewart, you've got it entirely wrong...


    ...we 'feel' superior!
    Whereas Lindy and Tango people merely are superior

    Still waiting for that coffee....

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