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Thread: Do you dislike the First Move? Should it be an intermediate move?

  1. #61
    Registered User nebula's Avatar
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    Re: Jiveoholic.org video of First Move

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post

    It is also "the first move" I would use to teach a total newbe...
    Every time I sing praises to MJ as a dance, I use the "first move" as a demonstration...

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    Registered User happygoldfish's Avatar
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    Question Re: Do you dislike the First Move? Should it be an intermediate move?

    Quote Originally Posted by JCB View Post
    I don't much like the First Move, (which I was taught Ceroc style; btw the only move in my tiny repertoire which I dislike more is the
    neckbreak).
    It just feels wrong. {snip lots of reasons}
    But, having read the subsequent posts:

    Quote Originally Posted by JCB View Post
    From the content of this thread, it is obvious that the "First Move" has an advantage … {snip, then quotes:}
    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    I think the First Move is a valuable Beginners move as currently taught and should definitely remain in the Beginners classes …
    , but with a subtle nuance added to Franck's words,
    and for a different reason,
    and accompanied, (yes again) by a plea for more time during a "First Move" lesson.
    So you want the First Move to remain a beginners move in Ceroc classes.

    But do you (or your regular partner) still dislike the First Move?

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    Re: Do you dislike the First Move? Should it be an intermediate move?

    Quote Originally Posted by happygoldfish View Post
    So you want the First Move to remain a beginners move in Ceroc classes.
    Yes. But I'd like to see a lot more time spent, with a lot of attention to detail, and warnings about how forceful leads, staccato leads, and rushed leads can be uncomfortable or downright painful for a follower. (In this move, it is difficult for a followers to protect themselves: ie when going limp doesn't help, or getting out of the way in a close two-handed hold is difficult)

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    Re: Do you dislike the First Move? Should it be an intermediate move?


    Quote Originally Posted by happygoldfish View Post
    But do you (or your regular partner) still dislike the First Move?
    We don't use the Ceroc version any more. We collared various instructors, and watched dancers and videos, and have sorted out three variations that my partner uses to link into other moves, or just for thinking time. No, we don't like the feel of the Ceroc First Move, and don't find it useful.
    Sorry Franck, and other Ceroc-version supporters.

  5. #65
    Registered User Ghost's Avatar
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    Re: Do you dislike the First Move? Should it be an intermediate move?

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    The first move is one I can lead a total beginner into , even if they have not been taught it.
    I remember being most unhappy with the first move. I wanted moves I coudl dance at a wedding on someone who didn't know them and it seemed to me that the first move wasn't one of them.

    Then Gadget posted something similar about his being able to lead all the beginners moves on someone who didn't know them - and so I had hope.

    Time passed.......

    And now I can pretty much lead first moves on people who don't know them too (There's been a few beginners who's definition of "following" is still a little too abstract for me )

    The one definite benefit of keeping the first move as a beginners move is floorcraft. It lets you move the follow out of the way of danger and keep changing her direction / motion / keep her stationary - add in the variations and it's a very useful evasion move and so worth learning early on.

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    Re: Do you dislike the First Move? Should it be an intermediate move?

    Repetitive rant warning: sensitive forumites please avert your eyes.

    The First Move seems to me to be a difficult move for a beginner leader to learn to do correctly.

    So, more time please.

    I really think a bit more time would help.

    Perhaps I haven't made myself clear: we beginners need more time, guidance, and detailed instruction to learn the First Move properly.

    I am surprised this hasn't raised a comment from beginner leaders who declare how surprised they are at our difficulties.
    Indeed, their followers, after the first step-in, side-by-side, always swing gracefully out like a butterfly wing, then return, of course, along the same arc, side-by side once again. You merely lead that travelling turn out, angled left, until she stands, beaming, before you, where she started, awaiting the optional Return.

    But on the one hand, no instructor has said "Yes, I have always thought we rushed the beginners through the First Move! We ought to look into giving it some special attention."
    (Although a couple have mentioned it as a focus for intermediate or advanced workshops).

    On the other, I can see that there would be a real problem from learner leaders who trudged grumpily of from class, only able to tick one "new move learnt" box!


    Rant over.

    BTW:
    Unlike the little parody above, I most definitely was not being facetious when I said that beginner followers learn much more from the variety of basic “First Move”s out there than they do from following the other, "cookie-cutter" moves. (Or, indeed, from following the First Move, while they only meet with one version)
    Ideally, I would prefer (as a slightly battered follower) that Ceroc taught the LeRoc version to the beginners, (call it, say, "Basic First Move"), and moved the Ceroc version to Intermediates' classes, (How about "Classic First Move", or "Ceroc First Move" ?)

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    Registered User happygoldfish's Avatar
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    Exclamation Calling All Beginners!

    There seems to be a love-hate relationship with the First Move.

    Or, rather, a keep-hate relationship.

    Rather like saying, of some obnoxious relative, "He's awful, but he's family!".

    For example, from an earlier thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    While the First Move as currently taught by Ceroc (IMHO) is horrible, it can be made into a smooth, elegant, and delightful move with so many possibilities contained within it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    I remember being most unhappy with the first move. I wanted moves I could dance at a wedding on someone who didn't know them and it seemed to me that the first move wasn't one of them.

    {snip} Time passed.......And now I can pretty much lead first moves on people who don't know them too (There's been a few beginners who's definition of "following" is still a little too abstract for me )
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Yeah, but it's a bit naff as a move really - if we weren't taught it, I doubt that many of us would actually choose to do it. The open-out bit is particularly useless - the only time I use anything like that is to set someone up for a West Manhattan.
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    {What's naff about it?} It's, I dunno, just ugly, especially the stepping out bit of it - it's all push and pull, there's a clear connection breakage when you open out (unless you turn to face the follower, in which case you're starting a West Manhattan anyway), and it's a 9-beat move, so inherently difficult to fit into most music.
    And, even though JCB wants it, with reservations, to remain a beginners' move, she adds (in an Arial font, for some reason):
    Quote Originally Posted by JCB View Post
    We don't use the Ceroc version any more. {snip} No, we don't like the feel of the Ceroc First Move, and don't find it useful.
    Well, we've had loads of input from experienced dancers and even teachers on what's good for beginners, both in this and the earlier thread.
    I fear any more would simply be going over the same ground again.

    But we've not had any input from beginners, so far (except JCB, of course ).

    This is Beginners' Corner. Ignore all the wrinklies and grumblies!

    It's your corner! Tell everyone what you think!

    So come on, beginners! Do you have (a) a love-hate relationship with the First Move?
    or (b) a love-love relationship with it?
    or (c) a hate-hate relationship with it?

    Do beginner followers get hurt or injured in the First Move (or any other move)?

    What problems do you have with it?

    Would you prefer not to meet it until the intermediate lessons?
    etcetera.

    Helloooo beginners!

    Preserve the bowliverse!

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    Re: Calling All Beginners!

    Quote Originally Posted by happygoldfish View Post
    ,,,Helloooo beginners! ...
    New here?

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    Re: Do you dislike the First Move? Should it be an intermediate move?

    Hi Ghost,
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    ...floorcraft. It lets you move the follow out of the way of danger and keep changing her direction / motion / keep her stationary - add in the variations and it's a very useful evasion move and so worth learning early on.
    Worth quoting here, just to say .

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    (There's been a few beginners who's definition of "following" is still a little too abstract for me )
    ...and wouldn't an extended "First Move" lesson be an excellent time to remind them to follow exactly what is led!


    voice on loudhailer heard in the background: "Drop the whip and move away from the dead horse"

  10. #70
    Registered User Ghost's Avatar
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    Re: Do you dislike the First Move? Should it be an intermediate move?

    Quote Originally Posted by JCB View Post


    ...and wouldn't an extended "First Move" lesson be an excellent time to remind them to follow exactly what is led!
    Ok there's a lot of threads that have basically said Ceroc isn't big on teaching technique (though Franck bless him is doing a good job trying to anyway )

    I suspect if the first move was relegated to intermediate status, then most sane people on learning it in class would ditch it as unusable. And indeed given that it would be taught much less frequently, follows wouldn't be as good at following it and it would be much worse. There's seems to be a consensus on this thread amongst the leaders that basically it sucks as a move initially, but if you perservere you can do some cool things with it. (In other words there's no point asking the beginners because they'd say it's a terrible move and they'd be right But if you followed their advice, you'd never get to the "useful" stage )

    Quote Originally Posted by JCB View Post
    voice on loudhailer heard in the background: "Drop the whip and move away from the dead horse"

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    Registered User Ghost's Avatar
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    Re: Calling All Beginners!

    Quote Originally Posted by happygoldfish View Post
    Helloooo beginners!

    Preserve the bowliverse!
    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    New here?
    What, there's me and Trampy for a start (I think Gadget posted 'beginner' on Martin Harper's "what workshop level are you?" thread a while ago too)

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    Registered User happygoldfish's Avatar
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    Exclamation Calling All Beginners – not!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    I suspect if the first move was relegated to intermediate status, then most sane people on learning it in class would ditch it as unusable. And indeed given that it would be taught much less frequently, follows wouldn't be as good at following it and it would be much worse.

    There's seems to be a consensus on this thread amongst the leaders that basically it sucks as a move initially, but if you perservere you can do some cool things with it.

    (In other words there's no point asking the beginners because they'd say it's a terrible move and they'd be right But if you followed their advice, you'd never get to the "useful" stage )
    See, beginners? Your views don't matter!

    Queue up here to be ignored!

  13. #73
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    First timer 'first move' variation.

    So, I have dragged a reluctant "never done this before" lady onto the floor.Holding L to R I step in beside her placing my right hand on her hip. Then I step back on my right foot, placing it in front of her left foot. I then pivot on that back foot to face left, at the same time pushing her right arm to pivot her on her left, using my right hand to ensure that she does pivot on her left. As she pivots I am sweeping my left foot around behind. We are now side by side ready for me to launch her into a turn.
    What it amounts to is a first move variant with a 90 degree shift in orientation, not sutable for a class line-up.
    We do a few of those with me gradually reducing the amount of re-orientation. Within a few dances we are dancing the first move as it is normally taught, with no verbal instruction whatsoever, and we are dancing the first move as a beginner freestyle move.
    I really do not see any problem with the first move as a beginner move.

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    Re: First timer 'first move' variation.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    I really do not see any problem with the first move as a beginner move.
    <Exasperated harrumph>
    Are you a beginner?
    A beginner follow can follow a well-led First move. Unfortunately, in the beginners' class we tend to run into an inordinate number of beginner leaders.
    So the solution is so obvious, I don't know why I haven't seen it before:
    Ban beginner leaders from the beginners' class!
    Then no extra time will be required to teach First Move.
    But, seriously folks...
    My objection has been to the occasional battering beginner followers get while a newbie tries the new move with minimal instruction; and then the less-than-accurate results, as whatever he managed to garner gels into permanence.


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    Re: First timer 'first move' variation.

    Apologies - posting whilst half asleep

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    Re: First timer 'first move' variation.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    Apologies - posting whilst half asleep
    No worries!

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    Re: First timer 'first move' variation.

    If we are going about banning all the moves are hard to get right from the beginners moves, then what would we be left with? What move is so "simple" that a novice beginner can do it perfectly after one class?

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    Registered User Whitebeard's Avatar
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    Re: Do you dislike the First Move? Should it be an intermediate move?

    Well, tonight at the twice through and into freestyle I ended up with a raw beginner who went through the four set moves OK except that she couldn't really get the hang of the basket. Tired of the endless repetition I found I could lead her through some simple change places moves and, also, found no difficulty in moving her through the first move (not one of the set moves) in a passable fashion.
    Last edited by Whitebeard; 5th-July-2007 at 01:28 AM. Reason: Clarification

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    Re: Do you dislike the First Move? Should it be an intermediate move?

    Wearing my nerdy geek hat I will say it once again. With a massive intake of beginners and a computer savvy and equiped network Ceroc should be recording what moves are being done which weeks and relating that to how many beginners come back next week. Let the beginners speak.

    AFIK Ceroc does not collect all of this information centrally or relate retention to moves taught. If it did transpire that men were deterred by the first move, or any other, and it was still felt that it was a fundamental building block then it could be taught in lessons along with three high returner rating moves.

    It may seem a trivial advantage to be gained, but even 1% * N thousands of beginners * entrance money adds up to a bit.

  20. #80
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Do you dislike the First Move? Should it be an intermediate move?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    [...] With a massive intake of beginners and a computer savvy and equiped network Ceroc should be recording what moves are being done which weeks and relating that to how many beginners come back next week. Let the beginners speak.

    AFIK Ceroc does not collect all of this information centrally or relate retention to moves taught. If it did transpire that men were deterred by the first move, or any other, and it was still felt that it was a fundamental building block then it could be taught in lessons along with three high returner rating moves. [...]
    I'd have thought there'd be way to many other factors to decide for sure that it was the first move that scared the newbies away.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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