Do you dislike the First Move? Should it be an intermediate move?

[nebula]

If a First Move is done right (even the Ceroc way) your left arm is not stretched across anywhere. It mirrors the lady's arm, your hands joined in front of you.

I thought that was the correct way - when your hands are joined in front and in-between you, so no arms are stretched across the partner's body. Is not everyone teaching this way?

[ducasi]

Unfortunately I can't find a video or photos of how Ceroc UK teach the First Move, but here's a photo of the "count 3" position as taught by Ceroc Australia...



And a video – it looks like the Aussie Ceroc First Move is more like the "Leroc First Move" as described in the other thread...

First Move

[nebula]

Don't know about everywhere else, but in norfolk they teach that the lady's hand is positioned on man's left shoulder, not across his back. I would say ours is better way for intermediate, as there are many other moves that man would take lady's hand off his shoulder for, rather than going for beginners turn and return.

[happygoldfish]

… in norfolk …

Dr Phil Hammond, of the BBC's "It's all right, I'm a doctor", and so on, says that in Norfolk hospitals, patients' charts are sometimes marked "NFN".
It means "Normal for Norfolk"!

But in this case, NFN is also the London method, with the follower's left hand reassuringly on the leader's shoulder!

Unfortunately I can't find a video or photos of how Ceroc UK teach the First Move, but here's a photo of the "count 3" position as taught by Ceroc Australia.

Awkward camera angle, but I do admit it looks as if the man's right hand is somewhere in the middle.

However, this picture is totally unreliable:

1. As nebula has just pointed out, the lady's left hand is behind the man's back, which it shouldn't be.
In fact, it looks to me as if her left arm is completely free: isn't that her left hand sticking out on the left side of the man?

2. Instead of looking right, towards his partner, the man is looking diagonally left, presumably in order to face the camera.
But that's not just a style point.
Looking diagonally left is bound to pull the man's left arm leftward, and indeed you can see how uncomfortable the position is.
If the camera wasn't there, I guess his left arm would be much further over.

3. He's wearing a watch.

4. I wonder who's leading?

(My computer won't show the Australian video, so I can't comment on it.)

More reliable, perhaps, is the Jiveoholic page on the First Move, whose video of Count 3 (from a good angle) clearly shows the leader stretching his left arm right across the follower's body.

And the accompanying diagram (not photograph), http://www.jiveoholic.org.uk/diagrams/6h.gif, seems to show the same (but less clearly).

So I'm maintaining my view that the leader stretches across on Count 3.

[ducasi]

Can we get some input from a Ceroc teacher here please?

[Martin]

I still go to Ceroc beginners classes, and the instruction for Count 3 of the First Move is to for the leader to keep his left hand on the follower's left hip while turning the follower out by moving his right hand downward (from his left shoulder) towards her right hip.

And for the follower to pivot 180° on her left foot, and then twist back (not just step back: her lower body actually twists) on her right foot.

Sorry but this is well funny...

Leader left hand on followers left hip, well firstly this would not work, it would have to be the leaders Right hand, on the followers left hip.

However, getting the leader to move his right hand down downwards from his left shoulder - well, right hands do not hang below left shoulders

Anyhow, in the Aussie picture his right hand is on the waist
(small finger on the belt line, thumb pointing up) - behind on the left... If it were at hip level behind and on the left - It would be on the buttock - not a popular one with beginners when doing class rotation.

Still it is an evolving dance, I say go the bum and hip leads

[Franck]

Can we get some input from a Ceroc teacher here please?

Not sure what the question is anymore

To answer the thread title, I think the First Move is a valuable Beginners move as currently taught and should definitely remain in the Beginners classes as a foundation for future variations.

[ducasi]

Not sure what the question is anymore

Can we get some guidance on the position of the various limbs involved on count 3 ("turn the lady out") of the first move as taught by Ceroc?

In particular, does the leader "stretch his left arm right across the follower's body", or are the hands held centred in front of the dancers, more-or-less mirroring each other?

[Whitebeard]

Can we get some guidance on the position of the various limbs involved on count 3 ("turn the lady out") of the first move as taught by Ceroc?

In particular, does the leader "stretch his left arm right across the follower's body", or are the hands held centred in front of the dancers, more-or-less mirroring each other?

I still attend at least part of the two local Ceroc Beginners' classes and can confirm that the lead is instructed to take his left hand (and the follower right) down towards the followers right hip as she turns out and places her left hand in the lead's right shoulder**. This has the consequence that the leader's upper body tends to rotate clockwise with the follower. It can look ungainly if the lead "stretches" too much and in doing so leans forward.

The lead is also instucted to step back on the left so that he 'mirrors' the follower. One of the few times a foot is specified. Unfortunately, if you step back on the left foot your hips/ lower body tend to rotate anti-clockwise. So doing this move as instructed you end up rotating your upper body one way and contra-rotating your lower body the other way. Very dichotomous (whoo hoo), twisted, and graceless, in my view.

I get over this by disobeying Mr Ceroc in all his (un)wisdom and stepping back on my right whilst pointing my left as I rotate slightly with my follower to 'match' her stance.

I'm sure most leads have worked out their own way to make this move flow.

(I do hope I've got all my lefts and rights and rotations right.)

( ** happygoldfish is correct in assuming that Ozzy lady just sweeps her arm out across her leader's back.)

[David Bailey]

The lead is also instucted to step back on the left so that he 'mirrors' the follower. One of the few times a foot is specified. Unfortunately, if you step back on the left foot your hips/ lower body tend to rotate anti-clockwise. So doing this move as instructed you end up rotating your upper body one way and contra-rotating your lower body the other way. Very dichotomous (whoo hoo), twisted, and graceless, in my view.

It can be made to work - the whole dissociation thing they teach in Tango - but it'd be insane to teach that to beginners. The Jango first move definitely steps back on the left, for example.

I'm sure most leads have worked out their own way to make this move flow.

Yeah. By not doing it

[Gadget]

I still attend at least part of the two local Ceroc Beginners' classes and can confirm that the lead is instructed to take his left hand (and the follower right) down towards the followers right hip as she turns out and places her left hand in the lead's right shoulder**.

(Highlighting mine) - correct: the lead should start by moving the hand towards the follower's right hip. No-where does it say that this is the final destination. The directional description is given to indicate the direction of force in the correct.... well, direction.
I suppose if you were being accurate, the hand should end up closer to where the follower's hip was than where it ends up.

Oh, and has everyone forgotten the right hand's input into the lead?

[MartinHarper]

It can be made to work - the whole dissociation thing they teach in Tango - but it'd be insane to teach that to beginners.

When people walk they twist their upper body in the opposite direction to their lower body, so it's not entirely unnatural.

[timbp]

As nebula has just pointed out, the lady's left hand is behind the man's back, which it shouldn't be.
In fact, it looks to me as if her left arm is completely free: isn't that her left hand sticking out on the left side of the man?

This is exactly how it was taught to me -- the follower should keep her left arm straight as she pivots, so it ends up straight across the leader's back.
I'm not sure how it is now taught in Sydney (I'm now too Intermediate to listen to Beginner teachers). But I'm pretty sure the follower's left arm was not mentioned the last couple of times I heard the move taught.

Don't know about everywhere else, but in norfolk they teach that the lady's hand is positioned on man's left shoulder, not across his back. I would say ours is better way for intermediate, as there are many other moves that man would take lady's hand off his shoulder for, rather than going for beginners turn and return.

But in Australia we are taught many intermediate moves that expect the follower's arm across the leader's back. I recall in one of my earliest classes the teacher said leaders might have problem with this move with a UK follower because she will put her hand on the shoulder so it is not where you expect to catch it.

So nebula's "better for intermediate moves" argument works both ways.

Now I'm used to both styles of follower, and will either not lead moves that wont' work with a particular follower arm position, or will lead them but expect to have to try to catch the followers arm, rather than expect it to just fall into my hand.

[David Bailey]

(Highlighting mine) - correct: the lead should start by moving the hand towards the follower's right hip. No-where does it say that this is the final destination. The directional description is given to indicate the direction of force in the correct.... well, direction.

Being picky about it, moving the leader's hand towards the follower's right hip is clearly moving it in a (horizontal) clockwise semi-circle. That blasted semi-circle gets everywhere doesn't it....

Whereas the vid and picture seem to keep the leader's hands more in front? - which is the version I prefer BTW.

Oh, and has everyone forgotten the right hand's input into the lead?

Probably - how does it go? Coz I can't see how you can provide much of a lead with the right hand, in the First Move, without physically pushing your partner...

When people walk they twist their upper body in the opposite direction to their lower body, so it's not entirely unnatural.

Absolutely - that's the basis of the Tango walk in fact, and it's why everyone keeps saying "Ooh, it's just walking" in Tango

[NZ Monkey]

But in Australia we are taught many intermediate moves that expect the follower's arm across the leader's back.

Ditto here.

[happygoldfish]

Originally Posted by happygoldfish
… for the leader to keep his left hand on the follower's left hip while turning the follower out by moving his right hand downward (from his left shoulder) towards her right hip.

Sorry but this is well funny...

Leader left hand on followers left hip, well firstly this would not work, it would have to be the leaders Right hand, on the followers left hip.

However, getting the leader to move his right hand down downwards from his left shoulder - well, right hands do not hang below left shoulders

Oops! I'm misformed! … Nurse! … Doctor Frankenstein's made a mistake! …

When people walk they twist their upper body in the opposite direction to their lower body, so it's not entirely unnatural.

Isn't that called mincing?

[Martin]

Isn't that called mincing?

It sure is, just tried it out...

not trying it again...

[Gadget]

Being picky about it, moving the leader's hand towards the follower's right hip is clearly moving it in a (horizontal) clockwise semi-circle.

From the left shoulder? That's some horizon!

Whereas the vid and picture seem to keep the leader's hands more in front? - which is the version I prefer BTW.

That's because they move back Hand moves in a straight line in 3D space, but relative to the lead, it moves in a semi-circle (...quarter circle I suppose; semi would bring it way over to the follower's hip... to where people are arguing it is taught to be.)

Oh, and has everyone forgotten the right hand's input into the lead?

Probably - how does it go? Coz I can't see how you can provide much of a lead with the right hand, in the First Move, without physically pushing your partner...

From the side to side bit where the lead forms a contact point on the follower's right hip (Or back or shoulder depending on who it is, but it's taught at beginner level as the hip)...

On the turn out, the right hand applys gentle pressure to pull/rotate the follower, equalling the force used with the left hand to reinforce the rotational movement (actually slightly less force since it's closer to the follower's rotational axis and easier to throw them off balance.)
The hand rolls up and over, maintaining a contact point with the hip during the turn and finishes in the same location with the thumb pointing down. This hand is the best indication to the lead of where the follower is, how quickly they are rotating, and whether they are traveling with it - necessary information if the lead is to properly mirror the follower.
It is this hand that then begins the lead to return to the previous position (and can be used to stop the follower from returning too soon/rushing the move)

You have two hands on the follower for the body of this move: you have as much control over them as you do in leading a basket.

[JCB]

I think I've had a "eureka" moment.
From the content of this thread, it is obvious that the "First Move" has an advantage that none of the other beginner moves has: there are so many versions of the basic First Move floating around out there, that if beginner followers don't appreciate the value of following a lead as opposed to executing a move, then we soon learn when we start to venture out to different venues!

I think the First Move is a valuable Beginners move as currently taught and should definitely remain in the Beginners classes

, but with a subtle nuance added to Frank's words,
...and for a different reason,
...and accompanied, (yes again) by a plea for more time during a "First Move" lesson.

[Martin]

I think I've had a "eureka" moment.
From the content of this thread, it is obvious that the "First Move" has an advantage that none of the other beginner moves has: there are so many versions of the basic First Move floating around out there, that if beginner followers don't appreciate the value of following a lead as opposed to executing a move, then we soon learn when we start to venture out to different venues!

I have taught 1 1/2 hours on just the first move and the variations dependant upon music.

I joined in a workshop Adam did on tension, lead and follow, using just the first move.

I still use the first move (or variations of it) every time I dance....

It is also "the first move" I would use to teach a total newbe...