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Thread: Do you dislike the First Move? Should it be an intermediate move?

  1. #21
    Registered User killingtime's Avatar
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    Re: Do you dislike the First Move? Should it be an intermediate move?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    From the "turn out" position in the First Move (which is what I mean when I, and presumably others, say "First Move position") the leader and follower have their respective right and left arms in a ballroom-ish position – man's hand on lady's back, lady's hand on man's shoulder.
    Do we not teach it so that the man puts his hand on the lady's hip? I pretty much always put my hand on the back too but it isn't how it is taught.

    Quote Originally Posted by JCB View Post

    At least I think I get the idea. It certainly makes the move seem more useful to me, anyway. But that begs the question: why isn't one of these, (or a similar version) taught in the beginner class,
    As Ducasi stated, there is nothing to do with that once you've got it. You can send out from a closed position but as he mentioned closed positions can be uncomfortable for beginners (just because they aren't used to it).


    Quote Originally Posted by happygoldfish View Post
    It's Counts 3 and 4 which cause the difficulties (and the injuries) for beginners.
    So why not ditch them?
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    They're ugly, provide nothing, and break up the connection.
    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    The First Move as taught by Amir ditches count 4 – instead of a turn back in, the lady steps straight back out turning under the man's arm as usual. There are subtle other differences, such as it's made more slotted, so the man gets out of the way of the lady, and she travels in a straight line in and out.

    That's why I'd support teaching Amir's First Move in place of the Ceroc First Move, but not the First Move as I do it.
    I'd be up for that. I agree with DJ that the end of the First Move breaks connection and I very rarely end it that way. As a beginner I don't recall having too much difficulty with the First Move, relatively speaking and as an intermediate I think I'd hate to have come in "cold" to a lot of First Move variants. So I'm not in favour of taking it out of the beginner class but a changed version might well be worth trying (maybe a trial of teaching it another way).

  2. #22
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Do you dislike the First Move? Should it be an intermediate move?

    Quote Originally Posted by killingtime View Post
    I'd be up for that. I agree with DJ that the end of the First Move breaks connection and I very rarely end it that way.
    The trouble is, Franck's got a point - once you bring a lady into your side, it is natural to pivot her out, and then the easiest thing it to bring her back.

    So if you drop 3-4, you end up with:
    1. an "out-then-in"
    2. An unnatural turn
    3. A return and step-back


    Which is 7 beats, so still doesn't fit into the 8-beat ideal.

    And Franck's also right in that Amir's version is a bit tricky at first, at least for beginners.

    However, I think he's wrong by saying that "The First Move has more variations than any other moves, which I believe is a testament to its usefulness".

    More variations just reflects the fact that more people are familiar with it and more people develop variations based on it, simply because it is the first move. That doesn't mean it's particularly good as its job, just means that it is its job.

    As an exercise, it'd be nice to come up with an "ideal" First Move, which reflected the fundamentals of MJ more accurately. Of course, first we'd have to work out what the fundamentals of MJ are... At the moment, the only definition I respect is DavidB's "Lead-and-follow dance, emphasis on the downbeat" one, which doesn't help much in this context.

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    Re: Do you dislike the First Move? Should it be an intermediate move?

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    (indeed many followers throw themselves into the 'step out and back' even on their first night whether led or not...).
    Yep - and often without even pausing for the first side-to-side bit...which rather supports my point of view.
    Thinking about it, it seems to me this move encourages followers to autopilot or back-lead. When a newbie leader "pauses for thought" during the lesson, there is often a panic after, when he tries to catch up, and that is when following becomes a wee bit hazardous. The other notable moves for this are Shoulderdrop and Yo-yo. In the Yo-yo, the follower is at arms-length and a spaghetti arm will save you. In the Shoulderdrop the guy will usually wrench his own arm if he tries to rush. But in First Move you are a bit trapped.
    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    I have never had anyone complain about it.
    Buried somewhere in my posts, I think I said I enjoyed the move when well-led, so it doesn't surprise me at all that you have had no complaints, from what I have read on the forum (buttering up the Omnipresent Administrator of this Forum? Moi ?! Never! )

    <snip> several valid points you can read above <snip>

    I will leave others to argue the relative merits of the various versions: I don't know nearly enough yet. For me this thread has been really helpful to me because it allowed me:

    1) To argue for treating the First Move as a special case in beginners' class, and give it quite a lot of extra time.

    2) Because we are going to avoid the Ceroc First Move, to try to garner what we should have been learning, and how, from it; (much wiser and more experienced dancers than I put it in the repertoire of beginner moves for a reason.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    The First Move has more variations than any other moves, which I believe is a testament to its usefulness
    ...I can't resist suggesting it might be more of a testament to the number of dancers who couldn't reconcile themselves with the original version?
    Oh 'eck, where is the "runs for cover" emoticon?!

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    Re: Do you dislike the First Move? Should it be an intermediate move?

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    Before considering any radical changes to the moves, you have to consider the alternatives.
    alternatives... hmmm...

    On the step in (count2), why have the follower side to side? Why not "quarter" with the right foot between your partners? This is closer to a more familure 'ballroom hold' and can allow the right hand to locate the follower's far hip much easier. (or if you are becoming more advanced, their back/shoulder.
    The left hand is then raised to reflect the 'ballroom hold' stance rather than simply taken to the left shoulder. (BTW the reason for this arm position is to provide greater {ie clearer} leverage for the next bit, the turn out.


    On the turn out (count3), the lead has six basic options on their body position and how to lead it:
    1) stand in the same spot. Gives the spotlight to the follower, but if the lead leans and/or twists at the middle it looks really bad and feels realy uncomfortable. {unfortunatly, this seems to be the method most beginner leads adopt} If keeping the focus on the follower like this, then any pivoting should be done from the legs, keeping the torso "flashlighting" the follower.
    2) step back with the left (outside) foot. Mirrors the follower, but the lead has to actually transfer weight no order to keep the hips in line and has to not stretch or lean in the lead.
    3) step back with the right (inside) foot. This follows the follower's movement and gives a more 'connected' feel to the move, but can be a bit 'close' and uncomfortable for beginner followers. (and can look really bad when the beginner leads lean forward to try and keep lots of personal space)
    4) Half step forward with the left (outside) foot. This is more 'slotted' in it's approach, stepping 90º and keeping the follower's path clear. This is probably the 'easiest' for beginners, but unless the 'slot' concept is applied and explained (and adheared to), it can just rotate the partners in some random direction.
    5) fully step forward with the left (outside) foot. This traces the follower's sweep out turn and is even closer than number 3, but the lead is infront of the follower rather than behind them. The timeing of this has to be quite good or you end up treading on your partner, but it is the easiest entrance into a basic 'ballroom hold'.
    6) step forward with the right (inside) foot. No-one does this (other than me perhaps) because your body is doing something completley different from what your hands are leading. It positions the follower to your back with their right hand on your right hip - opens up a whole new list of movements.

    Coming back in from the sweep out (Count4) there are two main schools of thought:
    - Classic Ceroc, where the prior movement is simply mirrored and you return to the side-to side position. But no-one ever actually does this in freestyle unless there is a specific thing they want to do from that position other than a return while stepping back.
    - Amir's 1st move, where the follower is led forwards before returning, like a traveling return. This is notmally taught with method 4 above so that the follower travels infront of the lead and a count is cut from the move.

    What normally happens is a combination of the two where the follower is led forward, half turned (winding up), then returned. There are some other options though:
    - the leader steps slightly back (and perhaps towards the follower) on this count so that the follower pivots back to be infront of the leader
    - the leader half steps in (90º) to meet the follower. This can be usefull for push-spins, barrel rolls, some walks or a simple change of direction.
    - the lead carrys the momentum of the pivot back into a full turn infront of them instead of blocking for a return. Hard to lead this and can turn into to 'dragging' rather than 'leading' the follower through it.
    - the lead rotates/pivots in to face the follower. Hard to get the follower to stay in place, especially if they are used to a normal first move.
    - ...

    There you go: Multiple options. I still think that the way it's taught by Ceroc just now gives the most to beginner dancers.

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    Re: Do you dislike the First Move? Should it be an intermediate move?

    The first move is one I can lead a total beginner into , even if they have not been taught it.

    It is also a cornerstone of many variations.

    I would like it to be kept in the beginners class.

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    Registered User Tessalicious's Avatar
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    Re: Do you dislike the First Move? Should it be an intermediate move?



    Especially considering there are so many variations - if it became an intermediate move, no-one would ever teach the basic. And IMHO that would be a Very Bad Thing, for pretty much all the positive reasons stated above by everyone.

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    Re: Do you dislike the First Move? Should it be an intermediate move?

    Quote Originally Posted by happygoldfish View Post
    Now I've seen everything! ballroom-ish!
    That's like saying that a dog is cat-ish.
    Quote Originally Posted by happygoldfish View Post
    By ballroom-type I only meant ballroom-ish. I say ballroom-ish moves require technique, and are more difficult, and so should be taught more slowly (or not at all).
    Emphasis mine-ish.

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    Re: Do you dislike the First Move? Should it be an intermediate move?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Emphasis mine-ish.
    Ah, that's old-school MartinHarper, that is

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    Registered User happygoldfish's Avatar
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    Re: Do you dislike the Ceroc First Move? Should it be an intermediate move?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Emphasis mine-ish.
    Oops-ish! Well observed!

    But, no-ish, it's ok-ish, because you can say that a lion is cat-ish, or a fox is dog-ish, but not that a dog is cat-ish.
    (And an eel is f-ish. Don't talk to me about eels! )

    So a Ceroc move or position can be ballroom-ish, but I can still say that this one (Ceroc-type First Move, Count 2, side-by-side,facing opposite ways, with leader's left hand on left shoulder, and right hand on follower's far hip) just isn't.

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    Re: Do you dislike the First Move? Should it be an intermediate move?

    The thread title is loaded!

    I think that the First Move is such a beautiful move when it is well executed. Its value has been explained by many others above.

    I intensely dislike the manspin and i think that it should only be taught in advanced classes if at all, not beginner or intermediate.

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Do you dislike the Ceroc First Move? Should it be an intermediate move?

    Quote Originally Posted by happygoldfish View Post
    So a Ceroc move or position can be ballroom-ish, but I can still say that this one (Ceroc-type First Move, Count 2, side-by-side,facing opposite ways, with leader's left hand on left shoulder, and right hand on follower's far hip) just isn't.
    No, but as I've said twice now, count 3 "turn the lady out" position is.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Registered User Whitebeard's Avatar
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    Re: Do you dislike the Ceroc First Move? Should it be an intermediate move?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post

    No, but as I've said twice now, count 3 "turn the lady out" position is.
    I'm pleased that some people are starting to use 'count' rather than 'beat'.

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    Re: Do you dislike the Ceroc First Move? Should it be an intermediate move?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    No, but as I've said twice now, count 3 "turn the lady out" position is.
    Ok, I should have said: this one (Ceroc-type First Move, Count 3, side-by-side, facing same way, with leader's left hand right across his own body and near follower's far hip, and right hand on follower's near hip, with follower twisting backward away from him) just isn't.

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    Re: Do you dislike the Ceroc First Move? Should it be an intermediate move?

    ? If you are in a 'true' ballroom hold and open out, mirroring your partner, to face an audience and/or do some synchronised footwork... isn't that the same position?

    {I'm specifically thinking on some ballroom routines I've seen}

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    Registered User happygoldfish's Avatar
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    Re: Do you dislike the First Move? Should it be an intermediate move?

    With the leader's left arm stretching right across the follower's body?

    I don't think so!

    (Haven't you answered your own question by using the word "mirroring"?)

    Plus, in any such opened-out ballroom routine, isn't the essence that the leader has his right hand on the follower's back (not left hip), so that he can lead her with it?

    What makes Count 3 even more un-ballroom-ish than the awkward position is the fact that neither of the leader's hands is in a position to do a ballroom lead.

  16. #36
    Registered User timbp's Avatar
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    Re: Do you dislike the Ceroc First Move? Should it be an intermediate move?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    ? If you are in a 'true' ballroom hold and open out, mirroring your partner, to face an audience and/or do some synchronised footwork... isn't that the same position?

    {I'm specifically thinking on some ballroom routines I've seen}
    I have seen very few ballroom routines, and of those I have seen, most have been on Australian "Dancing with the stars".

    The one point I noticed most in what I have seen is how much time the partners spend at opposite ends of the dance floor. You argue about whether a First Move includes a ballroom hold, but in the ballroom routines I have seen it is a wonder if the partners touch each other at all.

    (which is not to deny their dance skills. Just last week I watched a routine and I was simultaneously thinking "I wish I had the technique to to that" and "why aren't they dancing together?".)

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    Re: Do you dislike the Ceroc First Move? Should it be an intermediate move?

    Quote Originally Posted by timbp View Post
    The one point I noticed most in what I have seen is how much time the partners spend at opposite ends of the dance floor.
    Show routine - I don't think that counts. Also, I think the rules are such that, once you come together, you have to stay in hold - but you can delay how long you stay apart for, hence the long "intro" bits I think.

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Do you dislike the First Move? Should it be an intermediate move?

    Quote Originally Posted by happygoldfish View Post
    With the leader's left arm stretching right across the follower's body?

    I don't think so!

    (Haven't you answered your own question by using the word "mirroring"?)

    Plus, in any such opened-out ballroom routine, isn't the essence that the leader has his right hand on the follower's back (not left hip), so that he can lead her with it?

    What makes Count 3 even more un-ballroom-ish than the awkward position is the fact that neither of the leader's hands is in a position to do a ballroom lead.
    If a First Move is done right (even the Ceroc way) your left arm is not stretched across anywhere. It mirrors the lady's arm, your hands joined in front of you.

    Oh, and you'll learn that the best way to do First Moves involve moving your hand to the lady's back – maybe even their left shoulder blade. Ideal for leading anything.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Do you dislike the First Move? Should it be an intermediate move?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    If a First Move is done right (even the Ceroc way) your left arm is not stretched across anywhere. It mirrors the lady's arm, your hands joined in front of you.

    Oh, and you'll learn that the best way to do First Moves involves moving your hand to the lady's back – maybe even their left shoulder blade. Ideal for leading anything.
    ducasi, you're not a Ceroc person, so I think you'd better sit down before you read the rest of this.

    I have a shock for you …

    I still go to Ceroc beginners classes, and the instruction for Count 3 of the First Move is to for the leader to keep his left hand on the follower's left hip while turning the follower out by moving his right hand downward (from his left shoulder) towards her right hip.

    And for the follower to pivot 180° on her left foot, and then twist back (not just step back: her lower body actually twists) on her right foot.

    Not all Ceroc teachers specify exactly how far across the leader's left hand goes, but the universal practice is for it to go as far as it reasonably can.

    (In other words, it's an arm lead, rather than a difficult paso-doble-type wrist lead.)

    No … no … dont' cry!

    The world's a funny place. Well, England is anyway.

    Now, I must admit that you did earlier, in your reply to JCB, mention the man's hand on the lady's back, and I missed the significance of it:

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    From the "turn out" position in the First Move (which is what I mean when I, and presumably others, say "First Move position") the leader and follower have their respective right and left arms in a ballroom-ish position – man's hand on lady's back, lady's hand on man's shoulder.
    And later:

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    No, if count 2 is the "step in (side to side)" position, that's not the essence of the First Move – it's count 3, the "turn out" position. At this point we have the "ballroom-ish" hold in that the man's right hand is on the ladies back, her left hand is on his shoulder, and the man's left hand is holding her right hand.
    Though you didn't mention the mirror arms.

    I can't claim to know how the rest of the world does Count 3 of the First Move. Is this mirror-arms thing a difference between Ceroc and Leroc?

    Perhaps some other contributors can enlighten me, before we risk going any further?

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    Re: Do you dislike the First Move? Should it be an intermediate move?

    Quote Originally Posted by happygoldfish View Post
    ducasi, you're not a Ceroc person ...
    I'm not sure what you mean by this... Apart from being taught Amir's First Move on a couple of occasions, I've only ever been taught First Moves the Ceroc way.

    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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