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Thread: Do you dislike the First Move? Should it be an intermediate move?

  1. #81
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    Re: Do you dislike the First Move? Should it be an intermediate move?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    I'd have thought there'd be way to many other factors to decide for sure that it was the first move that scared the newbies away.
    Nothing in statistics is for sure. I would think that Ceroc ought to be able to get a sample of 1000 men who did the first move time and 4000 that did not. I think that ought to be enough to uncover a significant effect, but I am open to correction on that.
    I think that the first move has so much going for it as a building block than anything other than a very significant effect ought to be ignored. Asking the question here is fruitless, those that hated it are long gone.

    The only beginner move that I have noticed cause significant problems in a beginner class was the shoulder drop, and that is far from a significant observation.

    I, and a few others, have found the slow comb uncomfortable. I am sure that quite a few ladies do not like to have to gaze into my face from close quarters, or at my shirt buttons in the case of the shorter ones. I do wonder if the effect shows in stats.

    I have worked on contract for several large companies that invest heavily in gathering stats, and it shows rewards in the bottom line.

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    Re: Do you dislike the First Move? Should it be an intermediate move?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    (Aside: Do Ceroc teach that the man takes his hand to his shoulder at this point? I think they do. If anyone can give a good reason for doing so, please let me know!)
    Hi - sorry for late reply.

    Raising the hand to the shoulder is generally taken as a signal to the follower preceding a turn (or a spin if the hand is flattened).
    It also helps lead the turn.

    I wonder if the First Move might parallel the evolution of the Yoyo,
    ending with the man stepping forwards into the space the lady started from, so you both end up changing sides ? That would open up the Mambo/Manhattan options !
    (Yes, sorry I'm a Taxi not a beginner ...)

    Another tip that might help:
    on the one occasion I have danced as a 'follower' (lady) (it was Xmas ...),
    I realised that the lady has no idea what the man wants her to do at first.
    As a 'leader', I have adopted the unorthodox practice of moving my right hand out from my side, by the width of her hips, as I step back.
    Just enough to imply 'you are coming here' - not out horizontally at waist-height - that's a different move - the Manspin !
    That subtle visual cue, with a straight (not turning her) pull, generally brings her straight forward hip-to-hip. It also subconsciously readies her for the hand-to-hip contact, which can come as a surprise.
    Cheating really, but it works for me !

    Also I find that repeating Yoyo, Basket and First Move in any order helps build up a consistent rhythm : In - Twist - Untwist - Out : because all 3 moves are quite similar to that extent.

    HTH !

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    Smile Leading the First Move

    Quote Originally Posted by EricD View Post
    Another tip that might help:
    on the one occasion I have danced as a 'follower' (lady) (it was Xmas ...),
    I realised that the lady has no idea what the man wants her to do at first.
    That's the fault of the lady(?) who was leading you!

    The follower's job is to move straight forward. It's as straight-forward as that!

    But then how does she know which side to end up?

    She doesn't have to! The leader steps to the side!

    Leaders! Don't make girls run round you! GET OUT OF THE WAY!

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    Re: Leading the First Move

    Quote Originally Posted by happygoldfish View Post
    But then how does she know which side to end up?

    She doesn't have to! The leader steps to the side!
    That is how my LeRoc classes were taught. But the Ceroc instructor said to "lead the lady forward and to your right, gentlemen, as you step forward" I have yet to distinguish a clear, one-handed, forward-and-to-my-left lead.

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    Smile Re: Leading the First Move

    Quote Originally Posted by JCB View Post
    That is how my LeRoc classes were taught. But the Ceroc instructor said to "lead the lady forward and to your right, gentlemen, as you step forward" I have yet to distinguish a clear, one-handed, forward-and-to-my-left lead.
    Ah! You may be right! Thanks for the input, JCB!

    On reflection, I think most Ceroc teachers in my experience tell both parties to move forward, and specify where they end up relative to each other, but don't actually specify who gets out of whose way.

    If Ceroc do intend that the follower moves to her left, then IMO that's teaching followers not to follow!

    I don't see why a follower-who's-following should do anything other than step straight forward when pulled forward at the start of the First Move.

    Could we have some input from a Ceroc teacher on this?

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Leading the First Move

    Quote Originally Posted by happygoldfish View Post
    On reflection, I think most Ceroc teachers in my experience tell both parties to move forward, and specify where they end up relative to each other, but don't actually specify who gets out of whose way.

    If Ceroc do intend that the follower moves to her left, then IMO that's teaching followers not to follow!

    I don't see why a follower-who's-following should do anything other than step straight forward when pulled forward at the start of the First Move.

    Could we have some input from a Ceroc teacher on this?
    I'm not a Ceroc teacher, and you're probably sick of my replies to your posts, but I thought I'd put in my tuppence worth anyway...

    The correct lead for the "step in" part of a first move, yo-yo, basket, etc., requires the man to lead the lady to his side – the lead should not be straight forward.

    Compare the basket to the "in-and-out" – one has a lead to the side, the other has a "straight forward" lead. If leaders can make these different and followers can notice the difference, then when it comes to a one-handed connection, the lead should be able to either lead a one-handed in-and-out, or the first move.

    Unfortunately many followers anticipate the lead to the (right) side and will not follow a straight lead, and will be very difficult to lead to the left. (This is why the pretzel "waving your right hand behind your back" thing is a signal – it allows leaders to signal to followers that they really should step forward to the left rather than the right. A good lead and a follower who is prepared to follow the lead rather than anticipate obviates the need for the signal.)
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Do you dislike the First Move? Should it be an intermediate move?

    Quote Originally Posted by EricD View Post
    As a 'leader', I have adopted the unorthodox practice of moving my right hand out from my side, by the width of her hips, as I step back.
    JazzJive teaches this as a signal, and it's also a common signal in Lindy for the Lindy Turn, which starts similarly, so it may not be as unorthodox as you think. Anyways, it works fine, and you can mostly sell it to the anti-signal brigade as a "preparation", like the man spin. Some teachers dislike it, though.

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    Smile the goldfish is IN

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    I'm not a Ceroc teacher, and you're probably sick of my replies to your posts, but I thought I'd put in my tuppence worth anyway...
    How could I be sick of analysing you?

    This time … hmmm … feelings of inadequacy …… possible persecution complex … ?
    It's a Freudian thing again!

    Now, if you were falling in love with me, that would alarm me! Nurse! …

    The correct lead for the "step in" part of a first move, yo-yo, basket, etc., requires the man to lead the lady to his side – the lead should not be straight forward.
    Compare the basket to the "in-and-out" …
    In the Yo-yo, the right-to-right hold means that the follower already tends to be offset at the end of Count 1, so I agree both parties tend to step straight forward on Count 2.

    In the Basket, the follower has turned 180°, which she naturally does by pivoting on her left foot, which itself brings her to the leader's right without the leader having to do anything (other than initiate the turn).

    In the etc., as I do it, the leader whirls the follower around his head before flinging her back to her seat and going off to dance with everyone else, so I don't see where leading her to my side comes into it.

    And in the First Move … I'll humbly wait for help from a Ceroc teacher.

    If leaders can make these different and followers can notice the difference, …
    I agree it can be done. But EricD didn't get it at Xmas (er, the lead, that is ) when he was following, and it seems to me an unnecessary piece of control-freakery.

    In Paso Doble, that's expected, but in good ol' easy-flowin' MJ I think the leader should just get out of the way!

    go with the flow! …

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    Lead/follow adaptations in the first move

    Quote Originally Posted by happygoldfish View Post
    I agree it can be done. But EricD didn't get it at Xmas (er, the lead, that is ) when he was following
    He's a novice follower, and he was (unless I misread) dancing with novice leads. I don't think a failure to handle exact positional offsets with perfect lead/follow is an indication of a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by happygoldfish View Post
    In good ol' easy-flowin' MJ I think the leader should just get out of the way!
    Well ducasi asks for precise leading and following, and you ask for mobile leaders. As a third option, it's relatively easy as a follow to just aim for the guy's right shoulder, which works regardless of whether he gets out of the way (and how much), and doesn't require extra leading skill.

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    Re: Lead/follow adaptations in the first move

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    … it's also a common signal in Lindy for the Lindy Turn, which starts similarly, …
    Not in Simon Selmon's or Julie Oram's class – the "signal" is the right arm going down-and-backwards, in "opposition arms" position, not to the side.

    Anyways, it works fine, and you can mostly sell it to the anti-signal brigade as a "preparation", like the man spin.
    If by "preparation", you mean self-preparation – that the leader is preparing himself by putting his right arm where it will be needed on the next Count, I agree – but surely he'll need it there no matter who steps to the side?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    As a third option, it's relatively easy as a follow to just aim for the guy's right shoulder, which works regardless of whether he gets out of the way (and how much), and doesn't require extra leading skill.
    Isn't that just encouraging followers not to follow?

    (This is what really bugs me about the First Move – leading it is tricky for beginners, so followers learn not to follow.)

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    Re: Lead/follow adaptations in the first move

    Quote Originally Posted by happygoldfish View Post
    Not in Simon Selmon's or Julie Oram's class ...
    I did say common rather than universal.

    Quote Originally Posted by happygoldfish View Post
    If by "preparation", you mean self-preparation...
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by happygoldfish View Post
    Isn't that just encouraging followers not to follow?
    No, I don't think it is.
    Last edited by ducasi; 10th-July-2007 at 10:29 AM. Reason: fixing quote

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    Re: Lead/follow adaptations in the first move

    The initial step in can be led in three ways, depending on what you want to happen and what the follower is doing:
    1) static - the lead simply stays in the same place and leads the follower in a diagonal to their right side. Most beginners start leading the move like this. Most followers start to develop the rotational form of dancing from leads like this.
    Doing it this way can also can act as a 'preperation' for the next movement - winding up the follower in one direction before sending them out in the other.

    2) shared - where both partners step in on a slight diagonal to end up side by side. This is what Ceroc try to teach; the sharing of traveling - it looks a lot better and contributes more to dancing as a couple.

    3) railroad - where the follower is led forward and the lead moves to be in the correct position. This has come primaraly from WCS and a lot of the more 'energetic' leads tend to use things like this to orbit the follower and give a different "feel" to the dance.

    As long as you are aware of which you are trying to lead (and which the followe actually followed ) then all three variations have their place.


    The right hand scooped in preperation can be used as a signal, but I don't think it should be taught as one.
    (It can help in 1 above to encourage the follower to come in to the lead's side. In 3 above it can encourage them to keep their orientation and not rotate to face. In 2 it's just collecting them as they step in.)

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    Re: Lead/follow adaptations in the first move

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post

    ......... The right hand scooped in preperation can be used as a signal, but I don't think it should be taught as one. .......
    Ultimately we all do this, at some stage, as that hand has to be at the followers left hip at the end of the step-in. How soon during the step-in process that hand moves out will determine whether it is seen as a signal, as an invitation, or as a necessity.

    In my case I would call it an invitation.

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