Dancing Politics

[Twirlie Bird]

I love dancing. I have always wanted to dance and now I actually can and the highs it gives me are out of this world. I can dance with my husband and that is magical. Something I never thought I would be able to do.

What I want to know though is why is dancing so damn complicated?

I don't meant the moves. I mean the politics. Why is it not just possible to go and dance and have fun? I'm not going into any details as this is not the right time or the right place. I'm sure there is a lot of political cr@p going on for lots of us. It sucks.

For me it's taking the fun out of dancing and this is heartbreaking. I have just spent the last three hours trying to make sense of it. Trying to decide how important dancing is to me. Considering just throwing the towel in. Scrapping Twirlie Bird and giving up dancing altogether.

Failing to make any sense of it I am now writing this. I don't really know why I am writing this. Maybe I just want to know that I'm not the only one experiencing political sh1t that's crippling my dancing and zapping all of the fun. I'm not asking for details. I'm not interested in naming names, telling tales and spreading rumours.

I see some fabulous dancers that turn up at events, are well respected and 'seem' to be neutral. They don't seem to get dragged down by all the nonsense. How is that achieved? Somebody please let me into the secret. I know it's not because I am on this forum. Some of the 'respected neutral people' are also forumites. This is the purpose of this post. Please don't let it get sidetracked with personal attacks. This is a genuine question. How can I be neutral so that other people's issues don't effect my enjoyment of dancing.

OK I'm off to bed. I will probably regret this post in the morning. Mods expect an email from me.

[Jamie]

Simple answer? Don't get involved with anyone on a level thats more than a "are we dancing then?" kinda thing. I have a few friends who are worth more than that obviously, but it's best not to get too involved in other peoples business, or indeed businesses.

I'm not saying that this is what you do honey, just this is how I get around politics.

On the job side of things, as you know I've just passed my CTA audition and am going to become a Ceroc Teacher within the next month or so, I have explained to anyone who has asked me, that I am not falling out with anyone or any business just because I'm going to be a Ceroc teacher, I have free will and should I want to go dancing somewhere, then I shall go, the good thing is no one is asking me to restrict where I dance.

I like to be friends with everyone and I hope that shows. I dance because I love to dance, I go wherever I choose because that's me, I'm a free spirit and I'm thankful when people understand that.

I suppose you need to think back (albeit not that long ago) as to why you started dancing and like you said, you enjoy dancing with your husband and you enjoy dancing in itself, don't let petty arguments spoil your pleasure. If you are unwelcome at a venue, then choose another.

I was asked by someone quite recently why I "have lots of friends yet don't seem close to any of them" and the above is exactly that reason, the friends I have in dancing are just that, dancing friends, we share a common interest. We might be completely different people, but for one moment we connect on the dance floor and nothing else matters but the dance.

If you feel everythings getting to you at the minute and feel like you don't want to go dancing, then I'd suggest doing just that, take a couple of weeks away from the dancing environments to truly decide what you want to do.

Hope that helps.

[bigdjiver]

...

What I want to know though is why is dancing so damn complicated?

I don't meant the moves. I mean the politics. Why is it not just possible to go and dance and have fun? I'm not going into any details as this is not the right time or the right place. I'm sure there is a lot of political cr@p going on for lots of us. It sucks.

For me it's taking the fun out of dancing and this is heartbreaking. I have just spent the last three hours trying to make sense of it. Trying to decide how important dancing is to me. Considering just throwing the towel in. Scrapping Twirlie Bird and giving up dancing altogether. ...

I see some fabulous dancers that turn up at events, are well respected and 'seem' to be neutral. They don't seem to get dragged down by all the nonsense. How is that achieved? Somebody please let me into the secret. I know it's not because I am on this forum. Some of the 'respected neutral people' are also forumites. This is the purpose of this post. Please don't let it get sidetracked with personal attacks. This is a genuine question. How can I be neutral so that other people's issues don't effect my enjoyment of dancing. ...

You don't meet the other people who have been turned off by all that stuff because they don't come any more. I was lucky in that I had another, more favoured venue to go to. FWIW my opressor no longer has his venue. I take no glee in that, I would rather have another night easily available. .

I hope it works out better for you.

[Gus]

THERE ARE NO POLITICS ... Just try to believe that and you will be fine. Ignore all the rumours and cr@p. No punter should have to become involbved, and they shouldn't be aware of what really is going on beneath the surface .... as long as you don't make the mistake of trying to get involved in the dance business. another good reason for not getting involved is that you may also find out people are rarely what they seem and you may get very disillusioned.

[Caz]

Hi babe.. I know exactly what u mean about the politics of the dancing world. it is completely rubbish that some of us can't just come and dance for dancing sakes and that the politics of it all get in the way. Listen to Jamie's advice.. take a couple of nights off.. i didn't go last night to my local venue, because of recent events, politics etc, it isn't the same anymore, i ended up thinking do i really want to go tonight and the answer was no so i stayed in. it is hard to overcome the politics when u become involved, all i can advise is try to keep out of it and if u do become involved try not to take sides and remain neutral. i know it is hard babe.. u r a strong person.. u will come thru it

[Lynn]

I hate it too and its the main reason why I restrict my involvement in any dancing organisation. I first ran into it when I started organising little small, social dancing evenings with the occasional workshop - all completely not for profit and purely for the joy of dancing for myself and fellow dancers. I encountered jealousy and suspicion from others.

Its not restricted to MJ and from what I have observed its a combination of some of the personalities that dancing attracts, and the desire to make money.

Wanting to share the joy of dancing and not worried about making a profit does not mean you can stay 'neutral', no matter how much you want to.

I've seen its effects on dance scenes locally (not MJ) and its the reason why I have opted to not take a role on a dance committee formed just last month (again, not MJ).

I understand that it exists, but the effect it has on my choices makes me angry so I'm not going to say anything more.

[Andy McGregor]

The thing about what is being called dancing politics is that they are for organisers, teachers, DJs, taxi dancers, demonstrators, etc. If you are just a dancer who turns up to their local venue and pays their £6, £7 or £8(!) you do not need to get involved. Once you stop being a paying customer you have crossed the line and entered the commercial side of MJ.

And the commercial side of MJ is riddled with activities some people will call "politics". My own opinion is that the activities within an organisation can be politics, but the activities between organisations are commercial pressures. Being told "if you DJ for Rocsters you will not be invited to DJ for Ceroc" is a commercial decision: it is not really politics.

My advice, if you find the commercial pressures get to you, is to stay out of the commercial side of MJ. That means you should turn down invitations to demontrate, taxi, teach, etc, etc. To accept those invitations is to join the commercial side of MJ and, like it or not, be put under commercial pressure.

[Billi Wiz]

Hi there

I'd just like to add that I've encountered a level of Pettiness around CEROC/MJ that does not seem to infest other Dance forms in my area.. e.g. Salsa./Tango etc..

In other forms of dancing Teachers attend each others Dance classes/Freestyles and sometimes (Shock/Horror!!) even do guest classes for others???

Compare this with the fact that I know certain folk have been barred from CEROC/MJ for setting up a class/workshops perceived as a Rival...

I think some people regard themselves more as Tony Soparano than as part of any Dance Community... Suppose we should be lucky no-one got whacked yet!!!

To a Neutral like myself it's incomprehesible except in terms of greed and insecurity...

These days I deliberately choose venues that are open & welcoming to all... & I've never regretted a thing...

[David Bailey]

I don't meant the moves. I mean the politics.

Every dance scene always has politics - for example, this Forum. There are groups, sub-groups, cliques, feuds, alliances, you name it. And it's complicated further by the "business" side of things. Also, there's always two sides to every dispute.

It's nothing do do with the dancing, and everything do do with people in groups - that's just how the dynamics of these things work. I'm sure the Upper Congleton Fine Art Appreciation Society has exactly the same problems.

Having said that, it is possible to enjoy the scene for many many years, without too much of this "allegiance" grief.

I see some fabulous dancers that turn up at events, are well respected and 'seem' to be neutral. They don't seem to get dragged down by all the nonsense. How is that achieved?

I would make no claim to being a fabulous dancer, but in my experience, no-one involved in the business area is completely able to return to the pure fun of dancing, there's usually some stuff that gets in the way. Which is why I personally have avoided getting involved that way, for the most part.

It seems great to be asked to be a taxi dancer, a demo, to teach, and so on - but these things always come with a price.

One of the reasons* I make strenuous efforts to avoid "the group thing" is because I know from past experience this often leads to problems. Interestingly, a couple of other well-known "life and soul" people have recently said the same thing to me - they've got disillusioned for the same reasons.

How can I be neutral so that other people's issues don't effect my enjoyment of dancing.

I would suggest that you "step back" from the group-affiliation thing, develop your own independence, and make friends with people as individuals. That approach has worked for me.

* The other reason being I'm just anti-social anyway of course.

[David Bailey]

I'd just like to add that I've encountered a level of Pettiness around CEROC/MJ that does not seem to infest other Dance forms in my area.. e.g. Salsa./Tango etc..

I disagree - in my experience, there's just as much pettiness in Salsa as there is in MJ. And I've certainly heard AT teachers bitching constantly about other AT teachers...

In other forms of dancing Teachers attend each others Dance classes/Freestyles and sometimes (Shock/Horror!!) even do guest classes for others???

Yes, but that's usually a "personal-relationship" thing, rather than a "business" thing.

There's just as much Ego in other dance forms as in MJ - probably more, in fact, as it's mostly teacher-owner venues.

Compare this with the fact that I know certain folk have been barred from CEROC/MJ for setting up a class/workshops perceived as a Rival...

Ceroc takes a position that, if you're (for example) a Taxi Dancer for Ceroc and then set up as an independent venue organiser, then you can't really continue to be a Taxi Dancer for Ceroc, because you have a clear conflict of interest. That's actually not unreasonable.

But I don't think Ceroc as an organisation bans people from attending venues as dancers for that sort of thing. I'm aware that a few franchisees may do this, but some franchisees are not exactly shining examples of enlightened business practice, unfortunately.

[Andy McGregor]

Hi there

I'd just like to add that I've encountered a level of Pettiness around CEROC/MJ that does not seem to infest other Dance forms in my area.. e.g. Salsa./Tango etc..

In other forms of dancing Teachers attend each others Dance classes/Freestyles and sometimes (Shock/Horror!!) even do guest classes for others???

Compare this with the fact that I know certain folk have been barred from CEROC/MJ for setting up a class/workshops perceived as a Rival...

I think some people regard themselves more as Tony Soparano than as part of any Dance Community... Suppose we should be lucky no-one got whacked yet!!!

To a Neutral like myself it's incomprehesible except in terms of greed and insecurity...

These days I deliberately choose venues that are open & welcoming to all... & I've never regretted a thing...

In my experience it is not the organisers that some people call independents. I have, at some time or other taught for all of our local organsers - except Ceroc. There is, in the main, a desire to co-operate amongst most non-Ceroc organisers. But, ask somebody who teaches for Ceroc if they'd like to do a lesson and you end up being told "no" by Mike Ellard!

Ceroc have done nothing underhand or dishonest they have, very much, laid out their stall. Us independents all know that we're wasting our time asking anybody who does anything for Ceroc to do anything for us. If you decide to cross the line and get involved in the commercial side of MJ, my advice is to make your choice. Ceroc, or the rest. Once you have made that choice it is really easy. It's even easier to stay on the other side of the counter and just dance where you like.

[Wuzzle]

Politics thats something that comes up every election

On a serious note i don't think I've heard, seen or listened to any politics to do with dance. Or rather i can't think of any perhaps. I keep saying am newish to the dance scene but thats now only compared to some.

Best not to get involved after all your there to enjoy the dance. After all it spoils the dance connection you get when your thinking else where....

My dancing is only as good as my mood or energy level...

[Spiky Steve]

The thing about what is being called dancing politics is that they are for organisers, teachers, DJs, taxi dancers, demonstrators, etc. If you are just a dancer who turns up to their local venue and pays their £6, £7 or £8(!) you do not need to get involved.

You missed competitors. There was a whole lot of discussion after the Ceroc Champs, some on the forum and some not. Maybe after every competition?

If you want to avoid politics then stay away from competitions too!

Steve

[Trouble]

We had this discussion early on in our meet didn't we. At the end of the day, the forum is like a big tread mill of gossip. I get advised on a daily basis of gossip going around but normally take this as my rules;

Always listen but do not give an opinion or take sides.
Always offer to listen more if the person is upset about it.
Do not get involved with the issues.
Give love to everybody. (well nearly everybody)
Keep laughing because at the end of the day, if you think about what the issues are TB, they are just not worth stressing about im sure.
Remember things blow over as quick as they blow up.
Stick to the nice forumites, like me.....

hope that helps hun.xxxxx

[Andy McGregor]

You missed competitors.

Thanks for adding to the list. I probably missed some others too. That's why I said "etc".

Any more groups that are affected by politics/commercial pressures?

[Lee Bartholomew]

Politics is everywhere, dance is no different.

Even some paying customers get dragged in to it at some point.

Let me tell you a story......


Awhile ago in Hastings there was 5 different Leroc classes. All four teachers were taught by Graham Leclerk and knew each other. All had classes on different nights of the week, all had the same average attendance (about 80). Most dancers would attend different teachers on different days and have no particular alliance.

One day someone decided they wanted more of the pie. How did they try to do this? They went to their 'rivals' class and flyered all the cars in the car park with free entry tickets to their class nights. Cue the start of some major fighting.

One teacher was so hell bent on destroying his rivals, he ran his classes at a loss and put on free freestyles on the same nights his rivals had paying ones.

The end result? The best teacher and DJ in the area gives up his venue and the dancers get stuck with some substandard teachers and a dis-information campain (advertising each others freestyles on wrong nights etc).

[bigdjiver]

I like the Pete Seegar quote "Whenever two or more people are gathered together, you are into politics."

[Lynn]

I've seen examples of both good and bad practice in local dance scenes.

Eg a salsa organiser who has taken down posters advertising his classes at a venue he has used for a club night so that teachers of other classes feel comfortable in sending their students along, and inviting other teachers to DJ.

Its not just about the commercial side - personalities do come into it. Someone won't go to someone else's event because they have fallen out with them. They then run their own event. If, as a regular punter you try to stay neutral and go to both, it can still end up complicated. I've seen customers become disillusioned and end up with no loyalty or respect for either teacher.

Collaborative is the best way forward, but most teachers/organisers consider 'their class' as their personal property and don't want to share.

I've tried the 'I don't want to get involved in the politics, I just want to support the development of dance' but its still hard not to be seen to take sides. (And I've experienced this in salsa, MJ, swing and AT.)

[Dreadful Scathe]

Let me tell you a story......

um...must you? to quote Twirlie Bird

I'm not asking for details. I'm not interested in naming names, telling tales and spreading rumours.

I have a whole stream of political infighting and gossip ready, but choose not to post it - because its not what this thread is about and all we are doing if we go down this road is spreading gossip and rumours...

[Lynn]

I have a whole stream of political infighting and gossip ready, but choose not to post it - because its not what this thread is about and all we are doing if we go down this road is spreading gossip and rumours...

I did post one example of collaborative practice, but only because it was a positive one. (The 'X falls out with Y' was not based on any one specific incident.)