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Thread: What would MJ be like without Ceroc?

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    What would MJ be like without Ceroc?

    I don't think this one's been posted before, bear with me...

    It's 1990. Modern Jive has been developed and run by a number of competing organisations for about 10 years now. Ceroc's (probably) the biggest player, at least in London, but is by no means dominant.

    For some reason, Ceroc's growth stalls - say, James Cronin decides to change his life 15 years early and hands over Ceroc to someone else, who doesn't really want to expand the business, so doesn't aggressively pursue a "national rollout" strategy.

    Fast forward to 2007: what do people think would have happened to the MJ scene now?

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    Re: What would MJ be like without Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Fast forward to 2007: what do people think would have happened to the MJ scene now?
    Same as the Salsa secene now? Fragemented, poor average standard of teaching, small clubs ... bigger egos because its less common?

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: What would MJ be like without Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Same as the Salsa secene now? Fragemented, poor average standard of teaching, small clubs ... bigger egos because its less common?
    That was pretty much my thought now also.

    But, all those things said, there might be some plus points:
    - Salsa is more developed, more vibrant, more cool, partially because it's been allowed to develop and evolve in a Darwinian and uncontrolled way. Would the dance itself be more developed if more people had freedom to innovate?
    - The salsa scene is pretty large, without any central guidance in the UK - so would the overall MJ scene be larger or smaller than it is now?

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    Re: What would MJ be like without Ceroc?

    We'd all be doing "WoodfaceRoc" and the NHS would be running short of dizzyness pills.

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    Re: What would MJ be like without Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    We'd all be doing "WoodfaceRoc" and the NHS would be running short of dizzyness pills.
    Seriously, I think we'd all be doing different "flavours" - more so than we are now. And yes, one flavour might be "spin-roc", one might be "smooth-roc", etc.

    I just wonder if we've missed something from not having had that level of diversity. Conformity is a two-edged sword, in other words.

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    Re: What would MJ be like without Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    I don't think this one's been posted before, bear with me...

    It's 1990. Modern Jive has been developed and run by a number of competing organisations for about 10 years now. Ceroc's (probably) the biggest player, at least in London, but is by no means dominant.

    For some reason, Ceroc's growth stalls - say, James Cronin decides to change his life 15 years early and hands over Ceroc to someone else, who doesn't really want to expand the business, so doesn't aggressively pursue a "national rollout" strategy.

    Fast forward to 2007: what do people think would have happened to the MJ scene now?
    My guess: More people would have started up,and more would have gone under, lacking Ceroc's expertise. The fear of failure would be greater and there would be even less risk taking as a result. The scene would be smaller, more diverse and fragmented, and the secondary market would have been less developed.
    Many people liketo decry dominant suppliers but companies like IBM and Microsoft in the software industry have been responsible for setting standards, though not always the best ones, and growing the business sector that they are in. I believe Ceroc has done the same.
    This is a long way from saying that they have got everything right.

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    Re: What would MJ be like without Ceroc?

    IMHO Ceroc are restricting the growth of the market for MJ. If Ceroc were the only game in town they would be in the same postion as pubs were a decade ago when there were not enough players for a market economy to work. UK Gov. needed to intervene to increase the number of players.

    Ceroc have used their muscle to great effect in the weekender market. And, I'm sure they will continue with their restrictive practices in the weekly class market. If MJ were the only dance form the Monopolies and Mergers commission would be shouting "cartel"

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    Re: What would MJ be like without Ceroc?

    MJ, New Zealand and Aussie would be the same.

    1990, before the big breakaway so not sure on the UK front.

    I would still be the same, as I did not learn through "Ceroc" <registered trademark>

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    Re: What would MJ be like without Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    I would still be the same, as I did not learn through "Ceroc" <registered trademark>
    Martin and I both started dancing in the same place, LeRoc Brighton. I didn't know anything about Ceroc for quite some time. Even then, it was only one venue in Horsham that I visited and that venue is not your typical Ceroc venue as Steve Nash is, by his own admission, "not pretty enough to pass the audition nowadays"

    The funny thing is that LeRoc Brighton is still going with the same teacher, teaching Modern Jive the same way. But the dance has moved on and LeRoc Brighton is no longer in Brighton. Also, the teacher seems to be moving away from MJ as he is starting a mixed night with a beginners MJ lesson followed by a beginners WCS lesson.

    Within the Brighton area we have a lovely mix of organisers with nobody dominating. This makes for a proper market economy with us organisers competing on product quality. Ceroc are in the mix, but there are at least 6 other organiser withing 30 mins of Brighton. If the rest of the UK were like this we wouldn't be having this thread.

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    Re: What would MJ be like without Ceroc?

    We'd all be dancing wcs.

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    Re: What would MJ be like without Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Martin and I both started dancing in the same place, LeRoc Brighton. I didn't know anything about Ceroc for quite some time.
    That we did and what a lovely crowd they were... I actually started in Worthing (Le Roc), on the first ever Worthing night... What wonderful people...

    I later moved to Brighton.



    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    The funny thing is that LeRoc Brighton is still going with the same teacher, teaching Modern Jive the same way. But the dance has moved on and LeRoc Brighton is no longer in Brighton. Also, the teacher seems to be moving away from MJ as he is starting a mixed night with a beginners MJ lesson followed by a beginners WCS lesson.
    Good luck with that one... When I started up in Crawley 1997, I tried this... MJ went well, WCS bored the people ... I had 80 new people on the first night... numbers dropped the next week to 30 of the new people... I phoned up the 50 missing people... they all said, MJ ok, but did not like the WCS, too hard/boring.

    I went back to MJ beginners and then MJ intermediate - numbers came up...

    Maybe 10 years on everyone loves WCS and the masses will follow ?? Good luck

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    Re: What would MJ be like without Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    Maybe 10 years on everyone loves WCS and the masses will follow ?? Good luck
    IMHO the WCS thing with Brigton LeRoc will be short-lived. Their MJ classes are not popular. Brighton LeRoc were popular when they were the only people in the area teaching MJ. As soon as the competition started up the numbers dropped for Brighton LeRoc. I'm guessing that's why they're trying WCS, they want to go back to being the only ones.

    I've got no problem with that, I will not be teaching WCS for the foreseeable future. And the reason I'm not teaching WCS, apart from not being good enough at it, is that I can see no need for it to have a great night out dancing. MJ meets all my dancing pleasure needs. Why complicate 1234 with 123&4?

    Back on topic. I think that MJ would progress and evolve far more quickly if it were a more varied market. Ceroc's tactics are anti-competitive with their first 6 weeks free, and similar tactics. I would much prefer a market where competition is based on product quality rather than games with pricing.

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    Re: What would MJ be like without Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Ceroc's tactics are anti-competitive with their first 6 weeks free, and similar tactics. I would much prefer a market where competition is based on product quality rather than games with pricing.
    Sorry .... but since when is Pricing not part of business? How is it anti-competitive? If they openned up free nights every time a competitior has an event then I may concur with you ... but pricing is just part of the marketing mix ... see any marketing text book. If they started charging more than you would they then be guilty of skiming or profiteering?

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    Re: What would MJ be like without Ceroc?

    I've just seen the future of MJ if Andy Mcgregor was running in

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    Re: What would MJ be like without Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    I've just seen the future of MJ if Andy Mcgregor was running in
    I've already done many cabarets to that track. Although I've never thought to do it with a woman

    On the subject of using pricing, Gus is right, pricing is part of the marketing mix. However, a price war where somebody is giving something away for free is something different altogether. It's a battle where the guy with the deepest pockets will win. And it's a battle I will never enter. If I have somebody offering a free night I will not offer a free night in opposition - that way lies madness and poverty

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    Re: What would MJ be like without Ceroc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Back on topic. I think that MJ would progress and evolve far more quickly if it were a more varied market.
    To be clear, I think the dance would evolve more quickly. I think it's fair to say that, within Ceroc, the rate of MJ dance development is pretty slow - and has mainly been a case of "adding more moves" historically.

    Having said that, there's a lot to be said for the minimum standard of teaching which Ceroc guarantees, and for a nationally-supported franchising system. Anyone who's tried to find a consistently-good salsa or AT class knows how much variation and ego is out there.

    Having said that, it's undeniable that both salsa and AT have progressed massively in (say) the past 10 years - and MJ hasn't, to such a large extent. Any new "trends" within MJ are pretty weak compared to the large tsunamis of style changes which have swept salsa (e.g. cross-body style) and AT (e.g. nuevo tango) in that time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Ceroc's tactics are anti-competitive with their first 6 weeks free, and similar tactics. I would much prefer a market where competition is based on product quality rather than games with pricing.
    I'm not sure I'd agree that those tactics are anti-competitive - at what point do promotional and marketing activities become anti-competitive? Especially as a lot of these activities are franchisee-dependent? It all depends on intention really - if these tactics are designed to force competitors out of business, then yes they're anti-competitive. If they're designed to attract more dancers to Ceroc events, then they're valid marketing tools.

    But that's off-topic, and I'd rather not get into Ceroc-bashing, God knows there's enough of that going on elsewhere.

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