Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 35

Thread: Connection - AT, WCS, MJ etc

  1. #1
    Registered User Ghost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Astral
    Posts
    3,209
    Rep Power
    10

    Connection - AT, WCS, MJ etc

    Ok so lots of posts about how wonderful connection is in AT and WCS

    Anyone want to have a go at explaining any concepts from AT, WCS (or any other dance really) that they find you can import directly into Ceroc?

  2. #2
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    SW London
    Posts
    397
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Connection - AT, WCS, MJ etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    Ok so lots of posts about how wonderful connection is in AT and WCS

    Anyone want to have a go at explaining any concepts from AT, WCS (or any other dance really) that they find you can import directly into Ceroc?
    Connection (dance - Wikipedia)) Hope this helps, Mike.
    Last edited by ducasi; 7th-June-2007 at 01:57 PM. Reason: fixed link

  3. #3
    Registered User Ghost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Astral
    Posts
    3,209
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Connection - AT, WCS, MJ etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Miguel View Post
    Connection (dance - Wikipedia)) Hope this helps, Mike.
    Thanks. I was thinking more about how to apply it to Ceroc though, or any practice exercises that help develop connection

  4. #4
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    SW London
    Posts
    397
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Connection - AT, WCS, MJ etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    Thanks. I was thinking more about how to apply it to Ceroc though, or any practice exercises that help develop connection
    FAQ: Lead and Follow, section 6.0 (Isn't Google wonderful)?

  5. #5
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Glasgow
    Posts
    10,015
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: Connection - AT, WCS, MJ etc

    Most of the connection technique I've come across in WCS exists in MJ too, though perhaps not taught as much.

    One thing that is taught in WCS, and works immediately in MJ is to increase connection through your arms by lifting, drawing back, and dropping your shoulders. It also improves your posture.

    Another aspect of WCS connection which I've been experimenting with in my MJ is the double-prep to lead a turn as the follower travels along their slot. Early results have been a fair number of confused followers, but that could be due to a lack of technique on my part, rather than misapplication of the technique generally.

    One key difference between WCS and MJ that should not be copied between the dances, is that typically (I believe!) a WCS leader only leads movement on the 1, or when a definite change of direction by the follower is required. In MJ, being more free and uneducated, a continuous lead should be used (as much as is practical.)
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  6. #6
    The Original Scooby Dave Hancock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    952
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Connection - AT, WCS, MJ etc

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    One key difference between WCS and MJ that should not be copied between the dances, is that typically (I believe!) a WCS leader only leads movement on the 1, or when a definite change of direction by the follower is required. In MJ, being more free and uneducated, a continuous lead should be used (as much as is practical.)
    Couple of things, firstly in WCS the lead doesn't tend to be on the one but is before the one, if you lead on the one then the follower has little chance and you'll dance pretty much off time.

    Also I'm not really sure about the continous lead in MJ, I quite like to also lead this just before the one in a pattern and then more often then not let the lady do their thing.

  7. #7
    The Original Scooby Dave Hancock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    952
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Connection - AT, WCS, MJ etc

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    One thing that is taught in WCS, and works immediately in MJ is to increase connection through your arms by lifting, drawing back, and dropping your shoulders. It also improves your posture.

    This is one of the best pieces of advice I've read on the forum and would strongly encourage all leaders and followers to actively think about their shoulders a bit more when dancing, using the up, back and down technique described by Duncan will give a much better connection with minimum effort from both parties.

  8. #8
    Registered User Ghost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Astral
    Posts
    3,209
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Connection - AT, WCS, MJ etc

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    double-prep to lead a turn as the follower travels along their slot.
    How does this work? (I haven't heard of double-prep before)

  9. #9
    The Original Scooby Dave Hancock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    952
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Connection - AT, WCS, MJ etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    How does this work? (I haven't heard of double-prep before)
    If done subtly it gives the follower a little warning and momentum, to be used sparingly though as often it's over prepped which has pretty much an opposite effect (it also requires connection and good shoulders)

  10. #10
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    SW London
    Posts
    397
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Connection - AT, WCS, MJ etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    Thanks. I was thinking more about how to apply it to Ceroc though, or any practice exercises that help develop connection
    Just found this - in depth FAQ (.pdf version) from the same author with entire chapter devoted to WCS. http://www.cs.utk.edu/~eijkhout/lead_follow.pdf

  11. #11
    Registered User Ghost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Astral
    Posts
    3,209
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Connection - AT, WCS, MJ etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hancock View Post
    If done subtly it gives the follower a little warning and momentum, to be used sparingly though as often it's over prepped which has pretty much an opposite effect (it also requires connection and good shoulders)
    Sorry - I meant literally "how does it work?" ie how do I physically double-prep someone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Miguel View Post
    Just found this - in depth FAQ (.pdf version) from the same author with entire chapter devoted to WCS. http://www.cs.utk.edu/~eijkhout/lead_follow.pdf
    Really glad I started this thread now - thanks

  12. #12
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Glasgow
    Posts
    10,015
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: Connection - AT, WCS, MJ etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    How does this work? (I haven't heard of double-prep before)
    Typically (e.g. in a Ceroc spin) you prep spins by taking your follower the one way then spin the other.

    In WCS typically you prep one way, then the other before spinning or turning the follower the first direction. Usually the preps go along with the "step-step" part of a pattern.

    As Dave says, it needs to be subtle so as not to disturb the steps before the turn.

    In my MJ, I do a lot of "lead along a slot and turn" moves – I've been trying to work in some double-preps into this in the past few days. I wonder though if my followers need to be in more of a WCS frame-of-mind for it to work successfully.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  13. #13
    Registered User Ghost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Astral
    Posts
    3,209
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Connection - AT, WCS, MJ etc

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    In WCS typically you prep one way, then the other before spinning or turning the follower the first direction. Usually the preps go along with the "step-step" part of a pattern.
    Ah, thanks
    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    I wonder though if my followers need to be in more of a WCS frame-of-mind for it to work successfully.
    I find something similar with Jango - it's easier if the follow's in that mindset

    I've also noticed that WCSers dance MJ differently if they've just had a WCS dance.

  14. #14
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Connection - AT, WCS, MJ etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    Ok so lots of posts about how wonderful connection is in AT and WCS

    Anyone want to have a go at explaining any concepts from AT, WCS (or any other dance really) that they find you can import directly into Ceroc?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    Thanks. I was thinking more about how to apply it to Ceroc though, or any practice exercises that help develop connection
    Am I the only one who has noticed that Ghost wants the response to be specific to "Ceroc" as opposed to Modern Jive?

    In my experience the connection at Ceroc classes in the South East of England is mostly about bouncing the hand/body up and down and stepping back until both arms are locked out fully. I'm not saying this is correct*, it's just what I've observed as the connection at "Ceroc" classes.


    *I might even be caught, on another occasion, in a different post, saying it's incorrect

  15. #15
    Registered User Ghost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Astral
    Posts
    3,209
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Connection - AT, WCS, MJ etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Am I the only one who has noticed that Ghost wants the response to be specific to "Ceroc" as opposed to Modern Jive?
    I had a Modern Jive dance last year

    While not a complete train-wreck it was close.

    I've learned my lesson. I do Ceroc; it's the Ceroc Scotland Forum, so Ceroc applications please

    Course if you want to give MJ examples I could apply to Ceroc, that'd be much appreciated

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    In my experience the connection at Ceroc classes in the South East of England is mostly about bouncing the hand/body up and down and stepping back until both arms are locked out fully. I'm not saying this is correct*, it's just what I've observed as the connection at "Ceroc" classes.
    Ah well I go to Bow, where things are a bit smoother

  16. #16
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Worcester, UK
    Posts
    4,157
    Rep Power
    12

    Re: Connection - AT, WCS, MJ etc

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Typically (e.g. in a Ceroc spin) you prep spins by taking your follower the one way then spin the other. In WCS typically you prep one way, then the other before spinning or turning the follower the first direction.
    The other difference is that the preps happen at twice the speed (to the same song). In West Coast both preps take place in the same number of beats as a single Modern Jive prep:
    MJ: prep on 1, spin on 3.
    WCS: prep on 1, prep on 2, spin on 3.

    Multiple preps work fine in Modern Jive. For example, the Arm Jive is just a triple prep for a clockwise spin. Double-speed preps typically don't work in Modern Jive, because followers aren't used to being lead on the even beats, and because it's non-standard.

  17. #17
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Northeastern Parts
    Posts
    5,221
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: Connection - AT, WCS, MJ etc

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Double-speed preps typically don't work in Modern Jive, because followers aren't used to being lead on the even beats, and because it's non-standard.
    It can work - this is one of the places where the lindy connection work that I've done definitely pays dividends. To make it work, you need to establish and 'test' a good continuous connection - with a follower who is unfamiliar with this, it can take a fair bit of playing around with connection during the dance. Some will get it quite easily, some won't - but if they do, one can quickly expand this to leading changes of direction on every beat for some moves.

    I'm intriqued by what Ducasi said about WCS movement only being lead on beat 1.
    Lindy (as taught by most teachers I've worked with) uses a continuous connection - it took me quite a while to get to grips with keeping the connection all the way through a swingout, for example, rather than only engaging it when I thought I needed it - this is a very common mistake for people to make.

    Another fun aspect with Lindy - very often, when the follower is 'doing her thing' - the leader supports this by keeping the frame / connection / tension there, and mirroring the forces that the follower creates - this can add momentum & energy to an improvisation which would be hard for the follower to do without support. Watching some of the WCS videos, it looks very much like they're using similar principles - anyone able to comment on this?

  18. #18
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Norf Lundin
    Posts
    17,001
    Blog Entries
    1
    Rep Power
    18

    Re: Connection - AT, WCS, MJ etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    Anyone want to have a go at explaining any concepts from AT, WCS (or any other dance really) that they find you can import directly into Ceroc?
    From AT - posture.

    Head up, shoulders back, grounded, imagining the line running down your body - all that sort of thing. I've been working on that for the past month or two, and it's very hard to unlearn many years of bad habits

  19. #19
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Glasgow
    Posts
    10,015
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: Connection - AT, WCS, MJ etc

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    I'm intriqued by what Ducasi said about WCS movement only being lead on beat 1.
    Lindy (as taught by most teachers I've worked with) uses a continuous connection - it took me quite a while to get to grips with keeping the connection all the way through a swingout, for example, rather than only engaging it when I thought I needed it - this is a very common mistake for people to make.
    I've heard a few WCS teachers say things like "you only lead at the start of the pattern" – the idea being that once the lady is in motion along her slot she doesn't need any extra lead. They don't then say, but I can only assume, that if you don't lead such things as turns, then your partner will never turn and never stop.

    By dropping the lead (but staying connected) it allows your partner a greater chance to improvise and bring her own musicality to bear on the dance.

    Things such as whips (aka swingouts) will need much more of a lead to achieve the turns and changes of direction, of course.

    I just returned to a WCS class on Wednesday after a break of about a year. In that time I think I've gained a greater understanding of how WCS is meant to work, so I had a go at dropping the lead after the "1", and it worked very well – I still led turns and such, but didn't lead continuously, as I would normally try to do.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  20. #20
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Cruden Bay (Aberde
    Posts
    7,053
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: Connection - AT, WCS, MJ etc

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Multiple preps work fine in Modern Jive. For example, the Arm Jive is just a triple prep for a clockwise spin. Double-speed preps typically don't work in Modern Jive, because followers aren't used to being lead on the even beats, and because it's non-standard.
    Leading is leading is leading: the main problem with any lead is not giving the follower enough time to follow it; dosn't matter if it's double speed or half speed. The "prep work" in all moves should be done on the preceeding beat for the next beat's movement.

    I was told this on a workshop very early in my dancing and thought "I have enough to worry about where my partner is now! never mind on the next beat!" It's taken me years to actually be able to put it into practice {but I think it's worth it, and one of the best peices of advice I've been given }

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. WCS to improve your modern jive
    By Gus in forum The Land of a 1000 dances
    Replies: 41
    Last Post: 8th-March-2007, 10:07 PM
  2. So how many MJ venues have you danced at in UK?
    By mick s in forum Social events
    Replies: 72
    Last Post: 10th-December-2006, 05:12 PM
  3. Musicality... and WCS... and taking it to MJ
    By TA Guy in forum The Land of a 1000 dances
    Replies: 71
    Last Post: 13th-November-2006, 02:46 PM
  4. Article: The Evolution of MJ
    By Gadget in forum Let's talk about dance
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 23rd-June-2006, 11:59 PM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •