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Thread: Madeleine

  1. #121
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    Re: Madeline

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    A bit more about this from this morning's Times (am clearly spending far too much time reading this paper - and I used to be a Guardian reader too!) suggests that it's not quite as clear cut as her simply being a suspect:
    My bad, but I thought everyone realised this.

    In this country, your protections under legislation begin with an arrest. If the police can persuade you voluntarily to, for example, go to the station with them and help with their enquiries, you don't get (almost all of) the PACE protection, which begins when you are arrested. So then you have the right to a lawyer, meals, sleep, and so forth, and charges must be brought within a certain time, and so forth.

    In other countries, the protection has a more formal commencement, and in Portugal it begins when the declaration of 'suspect' status. In the UK you can be no. 1 suspect but until the police arrest you, there's no protection.

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Madeline

    Can someone remind me of the timings of the events that night?

    Did they return from the restaurant, find Madeline missing, then immediately raise the alarm, or did they not notice her missing until the next morning?

    If sedatives were involved, where did the blood come from?

    Where could they have hidden a child's body for 25 days without it being discovered?

    Many questions still needing answers.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  3. #123
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    Re: Madeline

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    Yes, I just heard that on the Jeremy Vine Show. It does all sound very damning.

    That would suggest that the Mccanns disposed of her body in a hire car almost a month after she went missing, and under the glare of the worlds media.

    Highly unlikely, but you can't argue with DNA evidence.
    Er, yes you can. When fingerprint evidence was first introduced 100 years ago it was the solution to all crimes, and then gradually the rationale behind became a bit fragile and it was relegated to one, albeit an important, part of forensic evidence. Something that forensic scientists knew all along.

    One of the biggest criticisms of DNA evidence is that it has such a phenomenal and monumental mystique that it is suspected that juries cannot really assign it to its proper place in the evidential matrix. Certainly prosecution lawyers routinely screw up the probabilistic evidence and claim that the 'odds against' are several factors higher than they actually are.

    Having said all that, if there is blood in the car and it is the little girl's, then it'll have to be pretty fancy footwork that explains it.

    But think about this - who was hiring the car before the McCanns...?

  4. #124
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    Re: Madeline

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    Perhaps the Pope has a higher source of information?
    Like the Batphone?

  5. #125
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    Re: Madeline

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Can someone remind me of the timings of the events that night?
    They reckon there is one hour unaccounted for, but they only have the McCanns word for that. They say they checked up on her several times, but there is no evidence of that

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Did they return from the restaurant, find Madeline missing, then immediately raise the alarm, or did they not notice her missing until the next morning?
    They said they raised the alarm when they went back to check on her and saw she wasnt there. Again, they only have the McCanns word.

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    If sedatives were involved, where did the blood come from?
    Im no Dr, no really...but I understand that all types of fluids come out of the body when you die, including blood. Might have been from some type of internal bleeding from a drug over dose.

    Alternatively, they might have been violent towards her to shut her up so they could go for dinner and caused some bleeding then, only to find her dead from her injuries later.

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Where could they have hidden a child's body for 25 days without it being discovered?
    That's what I was wondering, but it's not out of the question they could have buried her in a shallow grave and moved her at a later date.

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Many questions still needing answers.
    Yeah...and without a body, I suspect many questions will never be answered.

  6. #126
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    Re: Madeline

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    But think about this - who was hiring the car before the McCanns...?
    Alright Miss Marple...stretching the imagination a bit there. How much of a coincidence would that be?

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    Re: Madeline

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    You see it many times over the years people appealing on TV then find out later they have done it (recently huntley etc)

    Interesting to know what they did with the body, if of course they or she did
    That's the thing I'm having trouble with.

    3 possiblities: 1) Madeleine was dead before the went off to dinner; 2) She died while they were at dinner or 3) she died after they returned from dinner.

    (As I understand it it was a big dinner with several friends and/or people they met on holiday - is that correct?)

    If 1) then they must be phenomenally good dissemblers. If either 1) or 2) when did they get rid of the body? One would have thought that they would be worried that a search, when it commenced, might easily reveal what they wanted to hide unless it was hidden quite well - when did they have the time to do that - wouldn't people have put two and two together if they left the restaurant and then quite some time later announced that when they got back their child was missing? If that happened you'd be sending up the alarm within 2 or 3 minutes - however long it takes to establish a child is not in the hotel room.

    Don't forget Lindy Chamberlain in Australia - it seemed so clear that she had done something dreadful until the evidence was carefully and calmly looked at.

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    Re: Madeline

    oh god i feel like im reading the dialogue to a snuff film.

  9. #129
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    Re: Madeline

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    Alright Miss Marple...stretching the imagination a bit there. How much of a coincidence would that be?
    Forensically, evidence in a car which was on hire to a number of people means that all of the others must be eliminated as possible perpetrators otherwise there must, by definition, be reasonable doubt.

    You see that, don't you?

    As for the bit about the shallow grave. They are intelligent enough to become doctors. You would know that if you sent the balloon up about a kidnapped child, there would in all likelihood be a very intensive search. You have to be pretty certain that your 'shallow grave' is going to go undisturbed. Unless of course you think that the discovery will direct attention away from you, in which case you probably would have to have done something to make it look like the cause of death was not actually too many sedatives...

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    Re: Madeline

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    That's the thing I'm having trouble with.

    3 possiblities: 1) Madeleine was dead before the went off to dinner; 2) She died while they were at dinner or 3) she died after they returned from dinner.

    (As I understand it it was a big dinner with several friends and/or people they met on holiday - is that correct?)

    If 1) then they must be phenomenally good dissemblers. If either 1) or 2) when did they get rid of the body? One would have thought that they would be worried that a search, when it commenced, might easily reveal what they wanted to hide unless it was hidden quite well - when did they have the time to do that - wouldn't people have put two and two together if they left the restaurant and then quite some time later announced that when they got back their child was missing? If that happened you'd be sending up the alarm within 2 or 3 minutes - however long it takes to establish a child is not in the hotel room.

    Don't forget Lindy Chamberlain in Australia - it seemed so clear that she had done something dreadful until the evidence was carefully and calmly looked at.
    Lets assume it was accident , the sedative killed her. They panic , their doctors there going to loose there other two children if there found out

    Lets say she dies at 6pm (when was she last see alive by a third party ?)

    The whole bit about going back to check is a ruse

    It’s the body I cant get around , hide it some where then hide it further away ??

    Maybe they got rid of the body at 6pm and the rest was made up

    Didn’t any of their friends see the kids after 6pm ??

  11. #131
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    Re: Madeline

    I'm not sure why, but it's making me cross to read this thread. Not cross at the thought that we have all been duped by the parents, but by the fact that so many people are willing to believe that they could actually do it. So much so, that they are all trying to work out how they did it. Maybe it's because I can't possibly believe that anyone could be so good at concealing the fact that they knew how their own daughter had died. Accident or not. I can't get my head around how any human being could be so callous. To me, the fact that so many believe that they could be, is nearly as disappointing.

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    Re: Madeline

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruella View Post
    I'm not sure why, but it's making me cross to read this thread. Not cross at the thought that we have all been duped by the parents, but by the fact that so many people are willing to believe that they could actually do it. So much so, that they are all trying to work out how they did it. Maybe it's because I can't possibly believe that anyone could be so good at concealing the fact that they knew how their own daughter had died. Accident or not. I can't get my head around how any human being could be so callous. To me, the fact that so many believe that they could be, is nearly as disappointing.
    Could it be that people are going through all the possibilities because none of them are easily believable.
    The more possibilities you dismiss as unlikely, the more likely that the option that this was someone else becomes?

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    Re: Madeline

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruella View Post
    I'm not sure why, but it's making me cross to read this thread. Not cross at the thought that we have all been duped by the parents, but by the fact that so many people are willing to believe that they could actually do it. So much so, that they are all trying to work out how they did it. Maybe it's because I can't possibly believe that anyone could be so good at concealing the fact that they knew how their own daughter had died. Accident or not. I can't get my head around how any human being could be so callous. To me, the fact that so many believe that they could be, is nearly as disappointing.
    Trust me Cruella i know exactly where your coming from and i feel the same way. But, this is the world we live in and most people have suspected them for a while now anyway so most people are thinking i knew it, thought so, no surprises there etc etc.

    The news that we are hearing today doesn't make me angry, it makes me feel anxious and sick. The last time i felt like this was the Jamie Bulger case and i still have anxieties about that now.

    I think people are wanting to find an answer on top of everything else and this just makes sense whether its right or wrong.

    Its not good either way really though is it.

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    Re: Madeline

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruella View Post
    I'm not sure why, but it's making me cross to read this thread. Not cross at the thought that we have all been duped by the parents, but by the fact that so many people are willing to believe that they could actually do it.
    I guess that's because there've been so many similar cases in recent history. Apparently, young children are most likely to be murdered by a relative. Nasty, but true.

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    Re: Madeline

    I would really like it if the McCanns were cleared of any wrong-doing – the questions I'm asking are because I can't believe it is possible for them to have done what has been implied.

    Here's the time line from the BBC News...
    THE NIGHT MADELEINE VANISHED
    * Kate McCann tucks Madeleine into bed in their ground floor apartment.
    * Mrs McCann and husband Gerry then go to a nearby tapas bar, which has a clear view to their apartment, to eat dinner.
    * The McCanns said in an interview they checked on their children every half an hour.
    * At about 2200 local time Mrs McCann returns to the apartment to find Madeleine missing from her bed.
    * She goes back to her husband at the restaurant to raise the alarm and police are called.
    Based on that, there's little time for them to conspire to do anything.

    I don't believe that it's possible to cause the death of your own daughter then behave as if everything's OK for the rest of the evening. How long was Mrs McCann away for at 2200? And how long does it take to hide the evidence of a crime like this?

    I'm sceptical, but then none of us really know all the facts.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Madeline

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    I'm sceptical, but then none of us really know all the facts.
    Exactly.

    As a father and someone who is trusted with others' kids, I know that I would kill for my/our kids if I had to, and I would rather die myself than cause them any harm. That's why I always find it hard to believe that anyone could do anything like this to a child, but parents? I know it happens, but I still don't understand how.

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    Re: Madeline

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruella View Post
    I'm not sure why, but it's making me cross to read this thread. Not cross at the thought that we have all been duped by the parents, but by the fact that so many people are willing to believe that they could actually do it. So much so, that they are all trying to work out how they did it. Maybe it's because I can't possibly believe that anyone could be so good at concealing the fact that they knew how their own daughter had died. Accident or not. I can't get my head around how any human being could be so callous. To me, the fact that so many believe that they could be, is nearly as disappointing.
    I strongly agree with you Cruella.

  18. #138
    Not a spoon! Lou's Avatar
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    Re: Madeline

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    I strongly agree with you Cruella.
    There's one thing in trying to figure out how such a thing could be possible - but too many people are writing as if she's already been proven guilty. It's a tone that's all over the press, too.

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    Re: Madeline

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    I would really like it if the McCanns were cleared of any wrong-doing – the questions I'm asking are because I can't believe it is possible for them to have done what has been implied.

    Here's the time line from the BBC News...

    Based on that, there's little time for them to conspire to do anything.

    I don't believe that it's possible to cause the death of your own daughter then behave as if everything's OK for the rest of the evening. How long was Mrs McCann away for at 2200? And how long does it take to hide the evidence of a crime like this?

    I'm sceptical, but then none of us really know all the facts.
    Well your easy to fool ?? The time line is based on what they said .What if one or both lied ?, when was she last seen alive by a independent third party ?

    as i said maybe it was an accident , maybe as doctors they did thid for years a few re seditives etc

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    I strongly agree with you Cruella.
    Wondered when this would happen

    *** , the rest of the world are discussing this based on 3% of the facts various people know

    If you don’t like it get out of the kitchen

    Were not the jury and our 10 mins of guess based on 3% of the facts doesn’t mean anything to anyone
    Last edited by stewart38; 7th-September-2007 at 03:56 PM.

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    Re: Madeline

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruella View Post
    I'm not sure why, but it's making me cross to read this thread. Not cross at the thought that we have all been duped by the parents, but by the fact that so many people are willing to believe that they could actually do it. So much so, that they are all trying to work out how they did it. Maybe it's because I can't possibly believe that anyone could be so good at concealing the fact that they knew how their own daughter had died. Accident or not. I can't get my head around how any human being could be so callous. To me, the fact that so many believe that they could be, is nearly as disappointing.
    I can sort of understand where you are coming from, we would all like to believe the best of our fellow human beings.
    But the British press has not in my opinion reported this case in an objective manner. Non of the questions has been raised which would normally has been reported about if it hasn't been because the McCans is a nice professional couple.
    Would the press has been as sympathetic if it had been a single mom who had left her 3 kids home alone whilst popping across the road to the pub for their local Karaoke night?
    What if she had been with her friends one of whom had left her 8 months old baby home alone too? What if a 3rd of her friends had gone home to check on one of his kids, found they had been sick, cleaned them up and still went back to the pub? (as was the case with the other couples in the tapas restaurant) Do we not think they would have social services knocking on the door?)

    People can be bad parents, even appauling parents no matter their status in live. What education they have, what jobs they hold or their social background.
    Trust me, years spent in fostercare and childrens home has taught me that

    I am not saying that the McCans are in any way guilty. Hopefully with time we will find out what happened to this poor little girl. However it makes me cross that they are painted with a pink brush and the media is so kind to them because they are who they are. If they had not decline the free baby sitting service, or the use of the creche, or taken their children with them Madeleine would still be with them. Fact.
    Last edited by Connie; 7th-September-2007 at 04:04 PM.

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