Improving the male dancer "stock"

[frodo]

I think there are loads of women dancers who would like to compete and not so many men.
...
The stock of good male dancers who are willing to commit to compete is actually very small.
...
Solution: improve the quality of the male dancing stock. This will make them more likely to commit to compete.

A possible solution, but is there really a problem.

Is the resulting, greater proportion of competitors, really a good thing.

[Freya]

again, don't assume this is true for all female leads, this may well depend on people... where are Sparkles, MsFab, Tessalicious, Cruella and Freya (to name but a few of the best female leads I know) when you need them ?

However I suspect the 'being in control' thing still may apply, as the drawback of being a good female lead, is that you can spend most of your evening leading (if you're in demand), and little time following...

I'm here and thankyou for the compliment.

I prefer to choose when and who I lead. As Caro said its a question of control. I don't want to lead all night as I love to follow and primarily thats what I want to do in a night.

[MartinHarper]

The stock of good male dancers who are willing to commit to compete is actually very small.

This leaves a lot of very disappointed women unfortunately.

Solution: improve the quality of the male dancing stock.

Alternative Solution: the disappointed women can get over themselves and go compete with the not-so-good male dancers.

[Magic Hans]

... lots of good stuff about trying to retain leads (men) to whom dancing has no natural and immediate draw, with multiple sets of expectations and goals, and generally leave after 4-5 weeks for a plethora of reasons

Ok .... so where do we start?

Firstly, I fully agree that in our (UK) culture, generally few blokes have done absolutely any dancing (of any real worth) throughout their formative years, and certainly nothing formal or partnered. Whereas other cultures (Cuba, Africa, S America) seem to have dancing far deeper embedded in their societies.
a fair proportion of lasses have, at least, done some manner of ballet, or tap or jazz.

Most of us are office based. What relevance is that? Give me someone who is more used to using their body (Sparky, mechanic, plumber, etc), and I'll show you someone who'll pick up different types of movement easier and quicker.

Once blokes do get to start dancing, they'll have incentives and dis-incentives [varying quite widely from person to person as Franck quite rightly notes]. However, if they come back at least 2-3 times before dropping out, that would sound like disillusion-ment (or something like that).

I've always suggested learning a simple routine to new blokes. Take your 4 most favourite moves, stick them together, and repeat ad-naseum, until they are totally and entire embedded and burned into muscle memory. [That means I'll have a real confident and competent ... if boring ... routine to any track]

This gives a target to aim for ... and to compare progress against. I believe that once this initial plateau is reached, that new bloke can never go back to being a non-dancer.

Then, since our new dancer has confidence with this new routine .... and is now thoroughly bored of it, he can slip in a new move every once in a while. Before he knows is, 4 moves becomes 5 .... 6 .... 8 .... 10 ..... then, Hey Prestoh!!! routine seems to have totally vanished.

... that's my personal solution. Learning to lead (or follow for that matter) is the absolute key to learning to (partner) dance, and is difficult (it certainly was for me!). No amount of moves, simple or complex, can ever be any manner of replacement. Learning moves is comparatively trivial IMHO.

[/Sermon ends .... anyone for popcorn?]

(sorry to all the converted I'm preaching to!)

Love you all
Ian

[NZ Monkey]

I'd like to dig up a couple of offhanded comments from earlier in this thread because I think they may highlight an angle which isn't considered very often. I'm not suggesting anything about the authors views, but it feels wrong to me to not quote someone near the beginning of a post

I don't see myself as a very good dancer, but I do know that I'm a) a whole lot better than I was four years ago, and b) have a lot less moves in my repertoire than I did back then.

I'd say the same for me. I don't write or revisit lists of moves any more (though maybe I should make more of an effort to scribble down a couple I really like) and I'd say my dancing has benefited from leaving the ranks that think that moves make a dance (both the number and flashiness).

It's really good connection, and technique that make most punters feel like they've had a fantastic dance with someone who's good and I'm not suggesting otherwise.

I think moves are often written off by many dancers as being unimportant though and this is something which I've come to realise isn't really true at all. Moves are still required to dance (...and the ''stating the obvious" award goes to....) and the more a leader is able to draw on instinctively the better.

A great leader with a small repertoire will wow his partner the first few times they dance, and if they dance irregularly then for a long time after that as well. It's the regular partners who can become bored with the same old things. I suspect most experienced leads have had their fir share of moments when they're feeling stale as well. By constantly adding moves to the repertoire a lead can keep the dance more interesting for himself (of course, paying very close attention to his own musical interpretation will do the same....but the two aren't mutually exclusive ).

The trick is to still have the really good technique that makes you an interesting dancer as opposed to a Move Monster

[Twirlie Bird]

At the last MJ venue I went to, I was told by two different followers that I was a super-advanced dancer - and I think that the only stock 'move' I did in any of the dances I had that night was a first move.

I'm wondering if I danced with you at Knutsford

[Twirlie Bird]

There are just a few teachers which stand out for me as teaching excellent lead & follow (it is a 2 way thing!) workshops/lessons.

In my limited experience the amount of times I have seen lead and follow taught can be counted on one hand. At one of my old regular venues the teacher used to use the word connection and say why it was important but didn't really teach it or show us how to make that connection. It wasn't until I went out of my area to a class night that I saw connection and lead and follow being taught. The beginners class was cut down to three moves and the first part of the class focused on lead and follow. At the end of the first class all follows closed their eyes and were 'led' through the routine. This was the first time I had ever done this and it was scary. Worked though and what a lesson for both leads and follows.

That was my first big eye opener and my second was watching the Chill DVD. It was Francks class and I sat watching opened mouthed. Wow. How much do I want to dance with Franck now..............

[Sheepman]

They already do. Regular MJ classes are very much lead-focused.

Really? Where do you do your MJ classes? As far as I've seen they're focused on moves, not lead and follow.

Greg

[Andy McGregor]

Really? Where do you do your MJ classes? As far as I've seen they're focused on moves, not lead and follow.

Greg

Much as I love the Sheepster, I have to disagree - and, even worse, I have to agree with the Harpster (even though he is is total to$$er ). Almost every MJ lesson is taught to the lead. The follows just get tips.

[Twirly]

That's my take on it. It's what I try to do. Create personal projects for myself. We all benefit from it so I don't see anything wrong with doing this.

I actually find it makes things more interesting for me now - I fear that I'm getting a bit bored with my regular classes. And before anyone suggests that this might be condescending, I’m pretty sure that more advanced guys took me in hand in the past and danced with me to encourage me to get better. (Not that I think I’m a great dancer now or anything, but I think I might have something to give back.)

Anyway, the chap I was talking about yesterday wasn't there last night unfortunately so my hopes to help improve his lead (or should I say our ability to dance together) will have to wait - if he ever does come back that is.

However the intermediate chap I seem to have taken under my wing was there so I was able to do my encouraging bit there instead Although he said he wasn't dancing well, and with my new shoes refusing to allow me to spin, I can't say it was the smoothest dance we've ever had! Still, I enjoyed it and there is always next week

[killingtime]

Really? Where do you do your MJ classes? As far as I've seen they're focused on moves, not lead and follow.

Much as I love the Sheepster, I have to disagree... Almost every MJ lesson is taught to the lead. The follows just get tips.

Sheepman is stating that we are taught moves not the lead and follow concepts. He's not stating they aim the class to the follower.

[Astro]

Typically busks are held on a Saturday afternoon in a main shopping area. This doesn't seem to me to be the best time to find dance-curious men.

Other people have talked about busks outside football grounds, and the like. I'd also suggest busks outside (or even inside) concert venues and night-clubs.

Just a though. Perhaps others have some?

I once busked in a shopping centre, but there was a gym in it. You would be surprised how many men go to the gym. So i positioned myself between the entrance and the gym and handed out flyers.

A load of blokes showed at the next night( I wasn't there).
It makes sense
1. These guys will already have a certain level of fitness. (will aid their learning of dance).
2. They want to keep in shape, but may be bored at the gym and find dancing a more interesting method.

[MartinHarper]

Really? Where do you do your MJ classes? As far as I've seen they're focused on moves, not lead and follow.

Sorry: "leader-focused" would be less ambiguous.

I'm not sure how we could make MJ classes more leader-focused, even if we wanted to.

[JCB]

IMHO there is no solution to the current situation. We need to learn to manage it better.

<yeah that="">
Until dance becomes an integral part of our culture again, I fear Andy is right. (Lilia Kopylova’s BBC Radio 4 investigation was rebroadcast recently – worth a listen, anyone who missed it the first time BBC - Radio 4 - Arts and Drama - Fat Lads Don't Dance ) And although I would have thought that MJ would fit beautifully into the schools’ physical education curriculum, others don’t agree, even at our sons’ school, which is supposed to specialise in dance and drama! – rant over.</yeah>

[JCB]

...in many classes there is too much emphasis placed on "if it all goes wrong then its entirely the mans fault". <snip>
Paul

I have heard this, in one form or another, in most lessons.

<snip> as you point out, isn't always the most helpful thing that can be said during a lesson.

What can be said though, is that when a leader tries a move, and the follower doesn't get it right, leaders should not ascribe fault to the followers (which is something I've seen a lot of)

Agreed!!! : saving face, whichever side of the lead, won't make us better dancers.
( moi? never! - that I will admit to... ) But on the other hand, I have never even heard an instructor tell a class that it is, at the very least, twice as difficult to learn to lead the basic moves, as it is to learn to follow them, when, really, that point ought to be emphasized, and encouragement offered.

</snip></snip>

[JCB]

I know, and try to follow the commandment : Thou shalt follow what is led, nor shalt thou go into auto-pilot (and back-leading is right out! )


But there seems to be at least one totally lost beginner lead at most venues. There is one particularly lost soul at ours. I couldn't just stand there smiling but motionless, when, yet again, he stopped mid-yo-yo, with a panicky look on his face. I started watching the instructor, and switched to auto-pilot. After rotation, I watched. Every follower (except for the first-timers) was doing the same. (I should mention that he had been attending the venue for months before we started)

But extreme cases aside, my point is: there seems to be a scale of varying degrees of "lost leader," so although I understand that followers on auto-pilot are worse than useless to learner leaders, are there exceptions to this rule?

[MartinHarper]

There seems to be a scale of varying degrees of "lost leader," so although I understand that followers on auto-pilot are worse than useless to learner leaders, are there exceptions to this rule?

No exceptions.
For example, I know of a particularly lost soul who's been attending regular lessons for months, and still can't lead a yo-yo, despite every follower attempting to "help" him by switching to auto-pilot. I'd guess those followers aren't helping. Wouldn't you say?

[JCB]

No exceptions.

Yeah...Kinda what I thought. But my husband says there are an awful lot of followers on auto-pilot out there...and no, it doesn't help him at all.

[Twirlie Bird]

Yeah...Kinda what I thought. But my husband says there are an awful lot of followers on auto-pilot out there...and no, it doesn't help him at all.

It also doesn't help the follower

[Twirly]

No exceptions.
For example, I know of a particularly lost soul who's been attending regular lessons for months, and still can't lead a yo-yo, despite every follower attempting to "help" him by switching to auto-pilot. I'd guess those followers aren't helping. Wouldn't you say?

So what should the follower do?

If I find one of these I'm inclined to ask if they'd like some help, then backlead the through the move once or twice so they can feel the shape of it (know where their hands etc. are supposed to be) then ask them to lead me through it slowly and follow whatever they then lead to see if they've got it. Is this helpful? I always wonder if I should do it, but the leads I've done this with always seem to be appreciative.