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Thread: Improving the male dancer "stock"

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    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Quote Originally Posted by Groovemeister View Post
    Just as a thought rather than discussing or ways of marketing how about

    1) Discussing or coming up with a list of unique selling points that may attract men to dance modern jive in the first place.
    You get to meet women. Job done!

    The other ones are the difficult ones.

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    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheepman View Post
    Johnny ? (Lindy teacher at Beach Boogie)
    Johnny Lloyd (at a guess)

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    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    There seems to be an assumption running through this thread. That assumption is that more good male leads would correct the imbalance of the sexes. I think it would make things worse as even more ladies would turn up to dance with them....

    so true !

    forgot to capture quote, but I also agree with what Rachel said

    What constitutes a good lead ? It varies from dancer to dancer.

    There are many leads (and followers) who have inflated opinions of their ability.

    I believe that most of the organisers do their best to create good dancers (leads & follows) and it is up to the more experienced dancer to make the effort to dance at least a half a dozen (if not more) with the less experienced dancers at every dance. These are the good dancers of tomorrow, and they are possibly too shy to ask the more experienced dancer

    Whereas the most of the less experienced followers have no problem in dancing with the good leads and therefore the good leads have less time to give the good follower her fix for the night

    PLUS !!! The greedy good followers who hog the good dancers by repeatedly asking them


    --ooOoo--
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    Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, Minnie, made her film debut, along with Mickey, in "Steamboat Willie" on November 18, 1928.
    That date is recognized as her official birthday.

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    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    PLUS !!! The greedy good followers who hog the good dancers by repeatedly asking them
    Just slam dunk the greedy bitches. Problem solved.

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    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Quote Originally Posted by under par View Post
    I have posted several times before about franchisees teachers and MJ organisers promoting the teaching of leads as a priority especially in their formative first 6 months.
    They already do. Regular MJ classes are very much lead-focused.

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    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    There seems to be an assumption running through this thread. That assumption is that more good male leads would correct the imbalance of the sexes. I think it would make things worse as even more ladies would turn up to dance with them.
    On the basis that like tends to attract like, I very much disagree here. More good male leads means more people to help and inspire the less experienced / skilled leads, and provide more encouragement for new guys to come and dance in the first place.

  7. #47
    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    There are ways, I know I've tried introducing the 'Focus workshops' to add technique and as Lynn says sending those guys to week-enders often proves a turning point for them, which is why it's great that week-enders are so much more available and affordable these days, but ultimately, it's a patience game, and the more 'good leads' we have the more guys will want to learn and join that group...
    Yes, I am seeing the change in some of our leaders after Blaze. Small changes, but noticeable and progress is being made.

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    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    The best series of lessons I ever had, involved around five hours, spread out over the course of a week, in which we learned.
    On the other hand a couple of women who were in connection classes I've been in have stated "I don't see the point in this" which I found surprising (especially for followers where connection classes is something they can use). If you told me when I started that we'd be doing an hour class on isolating the connection I'd probably see that as less valuable than a class where we learnt 6 moves. I don't see it that way any more but I'm not sure if you stated that technique is much more important than moves I would have listened and I'm not sure many beginner leads would listen if you told them that either.

    I'd be interested in lead retention in things like Tango that often start very technique focused and move onto moves much later with a much slower learning curve.

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    I'm a) a whole lot better than I was four years ago, and b) have a lot less moves in my repertoire than I did back then.
    I'd say the same for me. I don't write or revisit lists of moves any more (though maybe I should make more of an effort to scribble down a couple I really like) and I'd say my dancing has benefited from leaving the ranks that think that moves make a dance (both the number and flashiness).

  9. #49
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    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    You get to meet women. Job done!

    The other ones are the difficult ones.
    It is easy to say that but it's what comes with making that statement.

    I think it is something all modern jive organisations have kept away from stating for what ever reason

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    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Quote Originally Posted by killingtime View Post
    On the other hand a couple of women who were in connection classes I've been in have stated "I don't see the point in this" which I found surprising (especially for followers where connection classes is something they can use).
    There were several people in the class who didn't see the point, and who wanted moves. They tended to be the weaker dancers (although not necessarily the most inexperienced)

    Quote Originally Posted by killingtime View Post
    If you told me when I started that we'd be doing an hour class on isolating the connection I'd probably see that as less valuable than a class where we learnt 6 moves. I don't see it that way any more but I'm not sure if you stated that technique is much more important than moves I would have listened and I'm not sure many beginner leads would listen if you told them that either.
    Hmmm - interesting. Normally, I find that it's the relative newcomers who are more likely to listen and to buy into the idea, whereas the people who feel they'd rather do moves tend to have been dancing for longer.

    But I do agree that it's not the wisest course to overload this stuff onto beginner leads. I think they do benefit hugely from learning it early, but it has to be balanced with a good proportion of more instantly usable moves and techniques, or they can easily be discouraged. The lesson I described above was in an environment where you go expecting to be worked hard - which obviously isn't the case in a weekly class, where people want more of a fun mix.

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    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    I know that when I first started to lead, I had girls coming to ask me for a dance (lack of male leads), and somehow I didn't really like that. I thought it was fine as long as I had control over it - essentially I'd much rather follow than lead, however in certain circumstances (lack of leads, or if I'm really in the mood for it, or just want to dance with my female friends) I'll decide I want to lead (vs somebody will ask me to lead them).
    Thanks for being honest Caro.
    No one else has mentioned it, so it seems as I though it's just a friend thing.

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    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    I lead, and I don't mind if a girl asks me to dance, so feel free
    "If you rebel against high heels, take care to do so in a very smart hat.'' George Bernard Shaw

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    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    .......No one else has mentioned it, so it seems as I though it's just a friend thing.
    AFAIK it is a 'friend' thing, but there is a new breed of followers, who now actually ask anyone to lead them

    I often lead in beginner classes (especially WCS) and often get asked to lead these beginners - in a class situation I really don't mind, but do get miffed when asked during freestyles when I want to do the following (this only counts for followers I don't know). And my lead in both WCS & MJ is very very average - shows you how desparate some of these ladies are.

    Just thought - maybe we have it all wrong !!
    Why don't these average (potential good dancers) ask for experience followers to dance They should be encouraged by the organisers to ask ladies to dance, we don't hear that very often these days

    One other thought !
    Why is it that so many men appear to me dancing together these days - that cuts the number of leads down dramatically - Nothing wrong with chaps wanting to follow, but ask a good female lead please, leave our men alone
    Last edited by Minnie M; 30th-May-2007 at 05:24 PM.


    --ooOoo--
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    Leroy (Satchel) Paige (1906-1982)

    Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, Minnie, made her film debut, along with Mickey, in "Steamboat Willie" on November 18, 1928.
    That date is recognized as her official birthday.

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    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    Thanks for being honest Caro.
    No one else has mentioned it, so it seems as I though it's just a friend thing.
    again, don't assume this is true for all female leads, this may well depend on people... where are Sparkles, MsFab, Tessalicious, Cruella and Freya (to name but a few of the best female leads I know) when you need them ?

    However I suspect the 'being in control' thing still may apply, as the drawback of being a good female lead, is that you can spend most of your evening leading (if you're in demand), and little time following...

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    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiggerbabe View Post
    I lead, and I don't mind if a girl asks me to dance, so feel free
    Next time you come to London then Tiggerbabe!


    Minnie's, Caro's and Tiggerbabes all came in together. Not ignoring you!
    Last edited by Astro; 30th-May-2007 at 05:36 PM. Reason: New posts posted together

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    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Is anyone else finding it amusing hearing an advanced leader explaining in such detail why advanced leaders are very valuable and important?

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    Why is it that so many men appear to me dancing together these days? That cuts the number of leads down dramatically - Nothing wrong with chaps wanting to follow, but ask a good female lead please, leave our men alone
    Oh, I can answer that:
    * There are more male leads than female leads.
    * There are more good male leads than good female leads.
    * Male leads are more easily identifiable in a crowd. Female leads are awesome, but look like regular women. Kinda like superheroes.
    * A proportion of women who are capable of leading would prefer to be following. Eg, Caro, Minnie, etc.
    * It's really not that dramatic. It's equivalent to a couple of women chatting with each other for a few minutes.

    More bluntly:
    * They're not your men.
    * Ask a good female lead yourself.
    * I'm valuable and important. Under par says so. Nah-nah-na-nah-nah.

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    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    Hmmm - interesting. Normally, I find that it's the relative newcomers who are more likely to listen and to buy into the idea, whereas the people who feel they'd rather do moves tend to have been dancing for longer.
    That's actually probably true. Beginners have no preconceptions about what you teach and, as has been mentioned before, this is perhaps the best time to teach them some good foundation before they get into that "I already know how to lead" frame of mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    But I do agree that it's not the wisest course to overload this stuff onto beginner leads.
    And this is one of those counter points against teaching technique early. I'd say WCS has a higher point of entry than MJ. If, when I started to dance, picked WCS I'd probably decide that this dancing lark wasn't really for me and would have given up. The accessibility and friendliness of Ceroc was definitely something that kept me going to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    One other thought !
    Why is it that so many men appear to me dancing together these days - that cuts the number of leads down dramatically - Nothing wrong with chaps wanting to follow, but ask a good female lead please, leave our men alone
    I'm aware it takes two leads out of the pool but certainly I maybe follow once an evening so it's not like we are hogging other men all night. There are loads of reasons to ask other guys; their leading technique (for the same reason women ask lots of different men, it's a different experience with each lead), you can pick up style with them and generally you can just have a laugh. I know lots of women who can lead and I often enjoy following them as well but it seems a little unfair on them too to go up and ask them to lead you when, maybe, they wanted a chance to follow with you leading.

    So, nope, I'm not going to leave your men alone .

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    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    More bluntly:
    * They're not your men.
    * Ask a good female lead yourself.
    * I'm valuable and important. Under par says so. Nah-nah-na-nah-nah.
    thanks Martin - I needed that laught this evening

    BTW it was meant to be a light-hearted post


    --ooOoo--
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    Leroy (Satchel) Paige (1906-1982)

    Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, Minnie, made her film debut, along with Mickey, in "Steamboat Willie" on November 18, 1928.
    That date is recognized as her official birthday.

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    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    This problem crosses over into other partner dance styles as well - when I used to dance ballroom at uni, we always struggled to find men for the classes, that is until one of their mates told them how many women there were over...

    It's a difficult problem and the solution is tricky (not much help am I ) - IMO it's just a stigma attached to men dancing.

    However, it can be changed (albeit slightly) - look at SCD and how Darren Gough/Mark Ramprakash made it cool . I'm sure that improved numbers everywhere (including MJ)

    So that's got them dancing but as for encouraging men to want to improve, for me (and yes, I'm not a man ) I want to improve to look like the amazing dancers I see at weekenders, utopia and the like and it was going to those events in the first instance that made me seek out other similar events/workshops. I then found the forum and more events/advice etc. Maybe encouraging people to go to these events or at least provide demos at weekly lessons would help? However, there has to be a certain degree of caution to not "scare" people (..."I'm never going to be able to dance like that...")

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    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Do followers have a 'pay it forward' type duty here to nurture these leaders?
    That's my take on it. It's what I try to do. Create personal projects for myself. We all benefit from it so I don't see anything wrong with doing this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    I'm assuming you hadn't read my reply before you posted yours to Under Par. You are quite wrong about 'the majority of organisers', we haven't missed out an important bit, we try to juggle many factors that make our nights successful and take MJ forward.
    No I didn't read your reply before I replied. Actually nobody had replied when I started writing mine. I think we are all enjoying having a great thread to get our teeth into. Your posts have been very interesting Franck. Seeing it from the other side is always good. However do you believe that your opinion and the way you do things is the same as the majority or are you the minority? I can't help thinking that if everyone had your outlook than things would maybe be different. It's difficult as I only have a limited experience of organisers and what I've seen so far hasn't been great.

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    The most common complaint is for someone who has danced between 6 and 12 months to say that we don't cater for 'them' and that we should change the format of our events, failing to realise that the reason they are still dancing after a year is because we run our nights that way, changing it would have possibly lost them in the first few weeks.
    Guilty as charged.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyr View Post
    As in any other interest group there will a percentage usually small that feel the need to expand, explore and develop further. The key word is small, why change a successful "Business" model to cater for the minority. It won’t happen. Lets not forget The majority are happy under the current model which caters to them more than adequately.

    We are talking about teaching Dancers which is a wholly different proposition!!
    This is very true and I think this is where the edges get blurred. Like somebody has said before there seems to be a lot of people on here that have taught or are involved in a deeper sense with the MJ community than simply turning up every week as a hobby and a bit of fun. That's why there is so much passion and enthusiasm on here so it's easy for those edges to get blurred.

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post

    Other people have talked about busks outside football grounds, and the like. I'd also suggest busks outside (or even inside) concert venues and night-clubs.
    I agree that maybe Saturday afternoons at the local shopping centre isn't the best place to find men who want to dance but I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable busking outside of a football ground (and yes I have been to many football matches).

    Quote Originally Posted by Rachel View Post

    Many of the men had been dancing for upwards of 5 or 10 years. The venue manager had danced at least twice a week for several years but, he said, had never ever been to a venue outside his area.
    Some franchisees don't even feel the need to venture outside of their area. They are happy where they are and don't see the benefit of venturing out of their comfort zone.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rachel View Post
    So from these guys' point of view, they could do a few moves, throw ladies into a few drops, always had partners waiting and always had a great fun night out. Why should anyone tell them that they need to improve? Do they actually need to improve? If they're achieving everything they want from a Ceroc night, then isn't that fine?
    Absolutely. Again this is going back to those blurred edges. You are absolutely correct. We all dance for for different reasons. Some people simply dont want to advance. There is nothing wrong with this. It's just about getting the balance right and catering for all I guess. Far easier to say than actually do and I don't envy these organisers who are trying to get it right.

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