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Thread: Improving the male dancer "stock"

  1. #21
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    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Two things determine whether I'm likely to go back to a specific venue. The music, and how likely the majority of the followers are to take notice of my lead. There's no point me going to a class where the moves taught suit what I want to develop if I won't be able to practice them after the class. More interesting music helps with this, because it reduces the average follower's desire to finish a move after I lead the first step. Slower music helps because I can more easily sabotage their automatic following and make them start to listen to the music.

    Most of the discussion on this thread seems to be aimed at teaching the leads. Actually, the followers need some instruction about what they need to do as well, particularly after they have got past the initial beginner stage and have started to notice what is happening.

    Sean

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    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: Dance partners

    Quote Originally Posted by under par View Post
    I think there are loads of women dancers who would like to compete and not so many men.



    Moved from the "Dance partners" thread - DJ
    Based on what ?

    Have a forum vote on it

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    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    This is not true, most of us do listen, and go beyond listening, we actually do market research (phone, questionnaires, forum feedback and database mining) to improve our retention rate, as Under Par says, retaining more men would be a financially rewarding strategy.

    The Ceroc business philosophy is to introduce as many people as possible to the wonders of partner dancing, and to make sure that we don't lose people in the first few weeks / months so that they enjoy dancing for years after they start. I'm frustrated that we (Ceroc) keep getting accused of 'just wanting to make money' as most of us really do it for the love of dance and indeed running regular classes is a very poor way to make real money for the time / commitment / effort involved (compared to other businesses).
    I’m pleased to hear it – and I wasn’t accusing, I was questioning. I’ve never heard that stated from someone senior in Ceroc before – so thank you. (Though I thought that would be your attitude anyway! )

    I still wonder how compatible the aim of introducing people to partner dancing and keeping them for the first few months (get them hooked – I agree it’s vital) is with the desire for dancers to progress beyond the basics. Is the Ceroc model up to this? Does it need some development? And I’m talking about the normal class night, not special events such as weekenders, which I presume is where Ceroc will make most if it’s money. (Sorry for keeping on referring to Ceroc – it’s the only MJ organisation I’ve got experience of.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Groovemeister View Post
    TBH i think there is a more fundamental problem than getting good leaders and that is a question I asked when I was fisrt on the forum "why do men dance"

    *snip*

    I would say firstly to get guy's in the door and hold on to them you need to change their impression of dancing I don't know how you could do it but I would say that was the starting point.


    Does this mean getting in at the ground level – encouraging young people? Get out into schools, etc. I suspect that the recent rash of dancing comps on TV has helped.

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    This is a very good point, and a more subtle one to address. Once people are 'sold' on the idea of partner dancing and reach a certain comfort level, it's difficult to motivate them to work (often pretty hard) to move to the next level.
    Getting the balance right between encouraging comments and Twirly / Woodface's "There was a new lead at my regular class the last two weeks who belongs on Woodfaces "should we tell beginners the truth" thread" approach is tricky as bad feedback might put off leaders who just need a bit more time / confidence to become great, but being too nice will never give them the incentive to progress...
    Just to be clear – I was trying to avoid being negative to the lead in question, hence my requesting advice on the best way to encourage him. I’m not used to doing this (at least to the extent I feel this person needs). Sorry if it came over wrong. Whilst I do believe in encouraging people and avoiding negativity, I don’t believe in telling someone they are doing well when they’re not. I don’t believe in lying, just encouraging.

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    Registered User Dizzy's Avatar
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    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    What a great thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    The numbers do not add up, At a regular night, you'll typically get 2 new women to every man. Now even if you give those guys the 5 star treatment (and assuming that you don't put them off with the extra attention / pressure), each new man's motivation for turning up is very different, {snip} so even with 5 star treatment and a good male retention record we still get twice as many women.

    As the only female taxi dancer at my local venue, I try very hard to give my time to teach the leads so they feel inspired and more confident but because there is more women the majority of the time, I tend to have to lead to make up numbers therefore I cannot give my time to the leaders. I don't know if this also the case with a lot of venues.

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    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    The numbers do not add up, At a regular night, you'll typically get 2 new women to every man. [...]
    Perhaps the best place to start in getting more, better men is to try to improve the male/female ratio of new-comers.

    I don't know all of the marketing strategies used by the various MJ organisations, but the most obvious one is the busk.

    Typically busks are held on a Saturday afternoon in a main shopping area. This doesn't seem to me to be the best time to find dance-curious men.

    Other people have talked about busks outside football grounds, and the like. I'd also suggest busks outside (or even inside) concert venues and night-clubs.

    Just a though. Perhaps others have some?
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    What about a recruitment drive from the women.

    Couldn't Ceroc give admit one's to all ladies who introduce men to ceroc?

    It's a win/win situation. We get a freebie and more men to dance with and ceroc get more men in their venues and everyone is happy.


    No?


    I'll get my coat then.

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    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post

    Actually, on that note, anyone got any tips on how to do that? There was a new lead at my regular class the last two weeks who belongs on Woodfaces "should we tell beginners the truth" thread I've been wondering all week what I can do to help him without coming across as condescending. Last week he managed the basket and yoyo - but that was only because I got out of him verbally which moves he knew - everything else was unrecognisable, and if I didn't get it, he'd just let go and apologise and look really embarrassed. He has spaghetti arms, weak hands and a tendency to let go every few seconds (even when I am following - and particularly in the middle of a return). Yet he stands at the edge of the dancefloor looking really keen - till he gets on it, when he looks totally terrified! (Sorry for sort of going off-thread a bit there.) Should I take him to one side and just run through things with him? Ask him to firm his arms up a bit? Or just point him out to the taxi dancer and ask them to launch a rescue bid?
    Couple of thoughts on this, which may or may not be right in this case...

    I've been asked to be "more brutal" in the leading of certain moves - and while the ladies concerned were right, the reason I was being too gentle was that I knew I didn't have the move down and I was worried about hurting them (this is in class rather than freestyle). I'd rather pussy-foot through a move than crash through it while I'm learning. It may be he's similarly concerned and so has a lot of give in his lead. It can feel when leading a return like you're about to wrench their wrist for example, particularly if you're not familiar with it yet.

    As for giving advice. Go with honesty mixed with flattery. Explain you think he's got potential and want to dance with him, but would he mind if you went through a few things with him so you can both enjoy the dances more. Still gives him the out to say "No", but if he's got any sense at all.........It could really build up his confidence to know that he can lead with more tension without hurting you.

    (Course it could be something else entirely)

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    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    What about a recruitment drive from the women.

    Couldn't Ceroc give admit one's to all ladies who introduce men to ceroc?

    It's a win/win situation. We get a freebie and more men to dance with and ceroc get more men in their venues and everyone is happy.


    No?


    I'll get my coat then.
    Why no? I know a lot of venues that do this, either occasionally or as a general rule. Ceroc Greenford (now Uxbridge) ran this as a permanent promotion when I was dancing there, for about 6 months. I'm not sure how much it helped though.

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    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzy View Post
    As the only female taxi dancer at my local venue, I try very hard to give my time to teach the leads so they feel inspired and more confident but because there is more women the majority of the time, I tend to have to lead to make up numbers therefore I cannot give my time to the leaders. I don't know if this also the case with a lot of venues.
    At our local venues the female taxis tend to act as extra leads most of the time, at least during the beginner's class and the refresher class. It's only when they are dancing with a beginner lead that they get to be followers.

    You've also touched on the fact that it is actually harder to teach someone how to lead, than it is to teach them how to follow. By definition, you can't be led into how to lead. The moment the follower starts doing things to "help" the lead, they're hampering the learning process, in a sense.

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    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Quote Originally Posted by under par View Post
    ...
    leaders are a commodity.

    They are necessary for a MJ event.

    A commodity has a worth.

    A good leader then has more worth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    You'd be surprised UP, most MJ organisers get it fine, but transforming all the guys who turn up at classes into wonderful leads is not as straightforward as you suggest.
    The numbers do not add up, At a regular night, you'll typically get 2 new women to every man. Now even if you give those guys the 5 star treatment (and assuming that you don't put them off with the extra attention / pressure), each new man's motivation for turning up is very different, ...


    It's sad to say, but I think there are at least a few men who:
    - don't want to improve
    - don't realise they could improve
    - have all the fun and partners they need, so why should they improve?

    Even sadder, is that there is one particular venue where I don't think the dancing will ever change. Somewhere Marc taught once upon a time for a few weeks while they didn't have a teacher. The men are (big generalisation, I know, but I can only think of 2 exceptions) fast, rock'n'roll-lovin bouncy types who prefer to verbally tell their partners what move they are about to do, rather than lead it.

    Many of the men had been dancing for upwards of 5 or 10 years. The venue manager had danced at least twice a week for several years but, he said, had never ever been to a venue outside his area.

    During Marc's short time there, they kept begging for advanced routines, with complicated moves, drops, seducers, etc. But, to be honest, they weren't up to it. Whenever Marc tried to teach basic leading and musicality, they moaned that it was 'too technical' and they'd rather just have some exciting moves.

    So what do you do??? You can't tell them that, unless they learn to improve their lead, they won't have any women to dance with, or they won't be able to lead their partners into the right moves. Because there were always plentiful women who were more than happy to dance with these guys – in a lot of cases, I suspect they'd never known any different.

    So from these guys' point of view, they could do a few moves, throw ladies into a few drops, always had partners waiting and always had a great fun night out. Why should anyone tell them that they need to improve? Do they actually need to improve? If they're achieving everything they want from a Ceroc night, then isn't that fine?

    Can you really condemn anyone for not seeing the need to change their dancing when they're getting everything they want out of the evening? (However, my concern remains that these guys could be very dangerous, especially given their voracious appetite for drops….)

    Sorry, didn't mean to put such a downer on this thread, really. But given this, I think that however much '5-star treatment' you give to leads, it will only work on a minority of men who actively want to go beyond that 'do a few moves and have a laugh' mentality.

    There are some good suggestions for getting more men into venues in the first place, and this will proportionately increase that minority of men who do wish to get better and better. But how to inspire those others?? Perhaps more local showcases of the best of the best dancers, perhaps a little dvd library in the venues of inspirational dance films for people to borrow, perhaps more encouragement to visit weekenders, Utopia's and other venues (via subsidised minibuses?) ….

    Rachel

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    Registered User killingtime's Avatar
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    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck View Post
    ...working out which of the above motivations applies to each person is the single most difficult challenge in retaining those beginners, and even then, two-thirds of those guys will give up for a variety of reasons
    It's really interesting to read this. I guess I didn't really think about the business side that much. I suppose from our (punter) perspective we can just be friendly and welcoming to everyone and hope lots of them stay.

    Also if I was a women joining an MJ venue I might feel a bit miffed that the venue manager bought all the guys a drink and they got a back rub at the end of the evening.

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirlie Bird View Post
    Agreed it's great that they are always pushing for newbies. However I can't help but feel that the newbies take priority over the other dancers.
    Well, to a degree, I worry about this a little but more in the fact that taxis are for beginners and after that short period of time the early intermediates are left out in the cold. This is a whole other discussion though so I'll cull it now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirlie Bird View Post
    Sadly the common attitude seems to be once they are in they have paid their money so it makes no difference if they leave early. I have actually had one organiser say this to me. Obviously enough people turn up week after week that no extra effort is required.
    What real extra effort can they take? I mean they could turn you down at the door because there are too many women (like they do sometimes at night clubs with men) but would you rather prefer this to trying to get dances? I doubt most venue organisers really see it this way. I mean you enjoying your evening at a venue increases the chances of you coming back. You did mention eventually you'd just stop going and that's bad for their business.

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirlie Bird View Post
    ...tend to cater to these beginners by teaching them more and more moves. It seems to be all about the moves. This is what the beginners get taught. This is why their heads get jammed with more and more moves and they try desperately hard to put them all into their freestyle and then feel bad when they can't do this
    When I was a beginner I joined the forum. I read a lot of people saying that it's not about the moves. Never the less I recorded the moves I knew, I read over the notes and tried to integrate moves I didn't use or had forgotten about. I did worry about repeating a move too many times in a given dance.

    Moves, much more than technique, are a usable metric of your "progression". It's also something you can explain more from a stage. Seeing where people's connection needs strengthening (and even that word might well confuse). I do think we should try teaching a little more in the way of connection or technique. Maybe 5 minutes a lesson or something, if that's cuts us from 4 intermediate moves to 3 then so be it.

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    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Apologies if its already been said, but I think that in many classes there is too much emphasis placed on "if it all goes wrong then its entirely the mans fault". This may be the case, but is it helpful to nervous and self conscious male beginners? Could this 'advice' be re-packaged somehow?

    Paul

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    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Quote Originally Posted by killingtime View Post
    Moves, much more than technique, are a usable metric of your "progression". It's also something you can explain more from a stage. Seeing where people's connection needs strengthening (and even that word might well confuse). I do think we should try teaching a little more in the way of connection or technique. Maybe 5 minutes a lesson or something, if that's cuts us from 4 intermediate moves to 3 then so be it.
    Funnily enough, the best series of lessons I ever had, involved around five hours, spread out over the course of a week, in which we learned.

    Exactly.
    One.
    Move.

    Which was a move that we already knew (we thought) forwards, backwards, inside-out.

    That one set of lessons did more to improve my dancing than anything else I've ever done.

    At the last MJ venue I went to, I was told by two different followers that I was a super-advanced dancer - and I think that the only stock 'move' I did in any of the dances I had that night was a first move.

    I don't see myself as a very good dancer, but I do know that I'm a) a whole lot better than I was four years ago, and b) have a lot less moves in my repertoire than I did back then.

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    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Quote Originally Posted by Paulthetrainer View Post
    Apologies if its already been said, but I think that in many classes there is too much emphasis placed on "if it all goes wrong then its entirely the mans fault". This may be the case, but is it helpful to nervous and self conscious male beginners? Could this 'advice' be re-packaged somehow?
    Maybe we could try saying it with flowers?

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    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    There is a large "stock" of female leads.
    (I am not one of them) But I would much prefer to dance with a female lead, than with a male lead who can't dance.

    Anyway, I am reluctant to ask female leads as I'm never sure if they only dance with their friends. What is the equitette?

    Would female leads rather lead a proficiant follower, than be lead by a poor lead?

    Opening up the whole female lead issue could be a huge help in solving the problem of lack of leads and followers having to sit out.

    Also, I noticed that the Ceroc X catogary allowed same sex couples to compete. Perhaps all catogaries could follow suit, then more females could compete in competitions.

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    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Quote Originally Posted by Paulthetrainer View Post
    Apologies if its already been said, but I think that in many classes there is too much emphasis placed on "if it all goes wrong then its entirely the mans fault". This may be the case, but is it helpful to nervous and self conscious male beginners? Could this 'advice' be re-packaged somehow?
    As a more serious answer. I think that this a) applies chiefly to social dancing, and b) as you point out, isn't always the most helpful thing that can be said during a lesson.

    What can be said though, is that when a leader tries a move, and the follower doesn't get it right, leaders should not ascribe fault to the followers (which is something I've seen a lot of) - instead, the leader should - if they want to try it again - make an effort to adapt how they lead the move, to try and help the follower get it the next time.

    To do this well takes practice, but if a leader won't even try, their lead isn't likely to improve any time soon.

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    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    There are just a few teachers which stand out for me as teaching excellent lead & follow (it is a 2 way thing!) workshops/lessons.

    Robert Cordoba
    Kyle Redd & Sarah Van Drake
    Johnny ? (Lindy teacher at Beach Boogie)
    Franck
    Amir

    No doubt there are others, that I haven't attended.

    Common to these is that they were/are not part of a standard Ceroc/MJ evening.

    The regular lessons I attend rarely have more than 1 or 2 extra ladies, frequently there are extra men, they are certainly not viable on the same business scale as an average MJ night, as the numbers are far smaller. But most people are happy to just enjoy their regular night out, rather than trying to take their dancing to another level.

    At Amir's regular lessons, even for advanced dancers, up to half the teaching time is spent on lead and follow technique. That is only going to appeal to a tiny minority. Workshops at weekenders do help, but it is not a case of "once learned, never forgotten" regular reviews always help, even if I think "I've heard all that before."

    I don't know how you increase the pool of good leaders and followers, (the term "stock" makes me think that selective breeding is required!) We need the numbers in order to make businesses viable, but we also need education, if only to let people know there is more out there, but if that "more" is not incorporated within MJ, then it is hardly in the businesses interests to do that education.

    Greg

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    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    There seems to be an assumption running through this thread. That assumption is that more good male leads would correct the imbalance of the sexes. I think it would make things worse as even more ladies would turn up to dance with them.

    IMHO there is no solution to the current situation. We need to learn to manage it better. And, to some extent, we need to manage expectation. I have a little speech I give each time there are loads of ladies over. I goes something like this;

    "There seems to be a lot of lovely ladies over tonight. That's good for me and I'm really looking forward to dancing with them all. But it's not so good for the ladies. Listen girls, the solution is in your hands. When we research why ladies come to our classes we get loads of different answers. When we ask guys it's mostly the same answer 'dragged along by a woman'. So girl, get dragging. And, as an incentive, if you bring a new man next week you will get in for free!" Sometimes this works, other times it makes no difference - but, at least the ladies come back next week in the expectation that it will make a difference...

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    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    Anyway, I am reluctant to ask female leads as I'm never sure if they only dance with their friends. What is the equitette?

    Would female leads rather lead a proficiant follower, than be lead by a poor lead?
    well my guess is that it depends for everybody.... (helpful, aren't I )


    I know that when I first started to lead, I had girls coming to ask me for a dance (lack of male leads), and somehow I didn't really like that. I thought it was fine as long as I had control over it - essentially I'd much rather follow than lead, however in certain circumstances (lack of leads, or if I'm really in the mood for it, or just want to dance with my female friends) I'll decide I want to lead (vs somebody will ask me to lead them).

    So I kinda stopped leading for a while, and although I still do try from time to time (usually in weekenders), I'm not a good lead anyway so girls don't come and ask me to dance. Sorted.
    (and sorry for the girls I do ask to follow me )

  20. #40
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    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Just as a thought rather than discussing or ways of marketing how about

    1) Discussing or coming up with a list of unique selling points that may attract men to dance modern jive in the first place.

    2) Find the unique selling point for keeping them coming back.

    3) Find the unique selling point for them wanting to improve.

    I think the first one is the most difficult if we are honest with ourselves

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