Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 91

Thread: Improving the male dancer "stock"

  1. #1
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    6,312
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: Dance partners

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    I find threads like this confusing

    AND ............ for someone as gorgeous as you and a fab dancer you shouldn't have a problem
    I think there are loads of women dancers who would like to compete and not so many men.

    I think there are far more good women dancers than there are good men dancers.

    This imbalance which can be seen at every freestyle event and weekender.

    The stock of good male dancers who are willing to commit to compete is actually very small.

    This leaves a lot of very disappointed women unfortunately.

    Solution: improve the quality of the male dancing stock. This will make them more likely to commit to compete.

    Moved from the "Dance partners" thread - DJ
    Last edited by David Bailey; 30th-May-2007 at 09:03 AM.

  2. #2
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    6,312
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: Dance partners

    I have been asked
    And how do you do that clever clogs
    Interestingly enough I have posted several times before about franchisees teachers and MJ organisers promoting the teaching of leads as a priority especially in their formative first 6 months.

    Loads of good leads = loads of paying customers.

    Provision of good leads at an event is becoming a necessity for providing the service needed by the majority of the paying customers.

    The provision of extra help for leaders at every class will assist in the retention of male leads and this will avoid your 20 women over syndome.

    Sorry for hijacking Missy D s thread.

    Moderators may wish to split my comments off to another thread.

  3. #3
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Northeastern Parts
    Posts
    5,221
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: Dance partners

    Quote Originally Posted by under par View Post
    Solution: improve the quality of the male dancing stock.
    I agree wholeheartedly with the idea, but I've never quite heard it phrased like that before. Do you think it's time to start a selective breeding programme?

  4. #4
    Registered User spindr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Brizzle
    Posts
    1,617
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Dance partners

    • Followers will get better at dancing if they dance with good leads.
    • Leaders will get better at leading if they learn to lead well.
    • Leaders will only learn to lead well if they can spot and correct their own mistakes.
    • Leaders will only spot and correct their own mistakes if followers *do exactly* what they are led to do.
    • So followers that anticipate and "help" the leaders are actually doing themselves a disservice in the long term.

    Paraphrased badly from my salsa teacher.

    SpinDr

    P.S. Quite fancy having a go at a comp' -- tho' would probably be beginners, since it'd be my first one

  5. #5
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    455
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Dance partners

    Quote Originally Posted by under par View Post
    Solution: improve the quality of the male dancing stock.

    Moved from the "Dance partners" thread - DJ
    Who are the brood mares and who are the stallions?

  6. #6
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    6,312
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Now this is its own thread I would like to quote myself from another thread.
    rather than rewrite another long winded post.



    Twirly Bird, what you describe is the second biggest problem that ceroc/leroc etc has.

    The first is the retention of males/leaders and making them the competent /pleasant/ challenging dancers you describe as the dancers who give you the buzz/high.

    Ceroc/leroc do not appear to have grasped that it is the very good male leads that the improving/advanced followers need and chase to get their highs.

    The fact there is always more women than men should encourage Leroc Ceroc to provide higher quality training for the leaders so that more of them can satisfy the followers needs.

    The problem you have desribed is that once you have learned to follow well your lessons are boring/dull. I do not believe most followers learn anything new after about 6-8 months of following from lessons.
    After this period of time followers learn far more from freestyling with good leads than anything from a lesson. (workshops involving style tecniquue an exception)

    Followers are in fact the manequins that are required by leaders to learn the moves taught during classes.
    Although beginner followers believe they need to LEARN moves this is never challenged by teachers and is actually a hindrance to leaders learning to lead IMHO

    Leaders actually need followers who do not anticipate or backlead during classes so they can learn to properly LEAD the moves being taught.

    I hope that all dance class organisers will prioritise their teaching to improving the quality of their leaders which will in turn satisfy the needs and requirements of the far more numerous, much higher standard followers.
    the thread can be found here http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/l...tml#post337465

  7. #7
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    6,312
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    The more I think about it the more I am confused that the majority of MJ organisers don't get it.

    All the busking and advertising they do to attract newcomers is great .... but then they get people through the doors and most of the men fail to stay more than a few weeks.

    Then you go to a venue and there are 20 women over in the class and later in the freestyle you see at least that number sitting out. How many evenings do you see the sitter outers leaving early because they haven't been getting asked because there are not enough leaders.

    Surely the ladies who are sat out or leaving early are paying customers too and deserve to get a similar level of service and satisfaction for their money.

    If my theory is right and you agree that without leaders there is no partner dancing thus no MJ......... then it follows that if you want lots of people paying for their night out dancing MJ you must provide lots of leaders.

    leaders are a commodity.

    They are necessary for a MJ event.

    A commodity has a worth.

    A good leader then has more worth.

    An event that attracts lots of good leaders will generally have lots of followers of all levels.

    As an MJ organiser surely the more attending the more money made.

    So it must be financially worth while for MJ organisers to prioritise their training for their most needed commodity... leaders

    They must ensure that every new leader (normally male) that comes through the door, should be given the 5 star treatment in order to train and retain them for the benefit of all the women who need leaders and would prefer good, well trained leaders.

    I fear I am repeating myself over and over again... but I want this message to get through.

    Am I talking sense? or have I missed out an important bit and have got it totally wrong.

    How many women forumites have been to events and had a cr*p night because of the lack of good leaders.

    How many women have been in the line of 20 women over and enjoyed it?

    How many women would appreciate having more higher standard leaders at their venues.

    Why is it not happening for you?

  8. #8
    Registered User Twirly's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    SE London
    Posts
    4,204
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Quote Originally Posted by under par View Post
    How many women forumites have been to events and had a cr*p night because of the lack of good leaders.


    I agree UP - but how to get the message across? I often think with a lot of the discussions on here that there are some very good (and very bad!) ideas floating about which Ceroc would do well to take note of, but I doubt that senior management even read them, let alone take notice of them (Franck excepted of course). It's a shame, as there is a lot of passion for modern jive on this forum, as well as experience. I also find it quite frustrating sometimes.

    What is Ceroc's business philosophy? Is it to provide a good service, or is it to make money? If the latter, then their current business model is probably serving them just fine. And there may be a mismatch between what we as the dance community would like, and what MJ organisations as businesses see it as their role to provide. Can the dance community really be served by the MJ business community - particularly when one player is so dominant? (This isn't a criticism of Ceroc per se - it's just a statement of how things are right now.)

  9. #9
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    6,312
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post


    I agree UP - but how to get the message across? I often think with a lot of the discussions on here that there are some very good (and very bad!) ideas floating about which Ceroc

    Can the dance community really be served by the MJ business community - particularly when one player is so dominant? (This isn't a criticism of Ceroc per se - it's just a statement of how things are right now.)
    I was conscious of not naming Ceroc or leroc for that matter ..and using MJ as an umbrella for discussion .

  10. #10
    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Nr Cambridge
    Posts
    3,696
    Rep Power
    12

    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Consider also the other aspect - men who have been 'retained' but whose leading is poor. I am sure all forumite followers could name a few of these. How can this group become desirable partners? Do followers have a 'pay it forward' type duty here to nurture these leaders?

  11. #11
    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Belfast
    Posts
    8,925
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Dance partners

    Quote Originally Posted by under par View Post
    Interestingly enough I have posted several times before about franchisees teachers and MJ organisers promoting the teaching of leads as a priority especially in their formative first 6 months.

    Loads of good leads = loads of paying customers.

    Provision of good leads at an event is becoming a necessity for providing the service needed by the majority of the paying customers.

    The provision of extra help for leaders at every class will assist in the retention of male leads and this will avoid your 20 women over syndome.
    Good thread. This is exactly what I have been focusing on at my local venue for the past number of months.

    Initially I was keen to help the beginners, but that meant I was spending a lot of my time with them and not with the developing intermediates and when I did get to dance with them I noticed that they seemed to have become 'stuck' at a certain level - adding new moves to their lists but not developing in terms of lead, musicality, technique etc.

    Our lovely teacher has been working on this too by including workshops that are helping to develop these skills but for me personally my approach has been -

    - encourage the leads to attend workshops when they are available here and at Blaze
    - give feedback where appropriate (and where I know it will be taken the right way) on leading technique
    - encourage them to develop musicality
    - allow space to be creative with moves and make mistakes

    Its been encouraging to see the improvements.

  12. #12
    Registered User Twirly's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    SE London
    Posts
    4,204
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Consider also the other aspect - men who have been 'retained' but whose leading is poor. I am sure all forumite followers could name a few of these. How can this group become desirable partners? Do followers have a 'pay it forward' type duty here to nurture these leaders?

    I consider it a good policy to do so, though I know that not everyone does. In fact, I know of follows who actively avoid dancing with people they feel aren't good enough.

    Actually, on that note, anyone got any tips on how to do that? There was a new lead at my regular class the last two weeks who belongs on Woodfaces "should we tell beginners the truth" thread I've been wondering all week what I can do to help him without coming across as condescending. Last week he managed the basket and yoyo - but that was only because I got out of him verbally which moves he knew - everything else was unrecognisable, and if I didn't get it, he'd just let go and apologise and look really embarrassed. He has spaghetti arms, weak hands and a tendency to let go every few seconds (even when I am following - and particularly in the middle of a return). Yet he stands at the edge of the dancefloor looking really keen - till he gets on it, when he looks totally terrified! (Sorry for sort of going off-thread a bit there.) Should I take him to one side and just run through things with him? Ask him to firm his arms up a bit? Or just point him out to the taxi dancer and ask them to launch a rescue bid?

  13. #13
    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Glasgow
    Posts
    3,045
    Blog Entries
    2
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Quote Originally Posted by under par View Post
    The more I think about it the more I am confused that the majority of MJ organisers don't get it.
    You'd be surprised UP, most MJ organisers get it fine, but transforming all the guys who turn up at classes into wonderful leads is not as straightforward as you suggest.
    Quote Originally Posted by under par View Post
    They must ensure that every new leader (normally male) that comes through the door, should be given the 5 star treatment in order to train and retain them for the benefit of all the women who need leaders and would prefer good, well trained leaders.
    The numbers do not add up, At a regular night, you'll typically get 2 new women to every man. Now even if you give those guys the 5 star treatment (and assuming that you don't put them off with the extra attention / pressure), each new man's motivation for turning up is very different, some only came because they fancied the girl who asked them, some want to learn to dance, some just want to try a new social activity to meet new people. Working out which of the above motivations applies to each person is the single most difficult challenge in retaining those beginners, and even then, two-thirds of those guys will give up for a variety of reasons (classes were too difficult, too much footwork, an undermining comment from a follower, not what they expected, other commitments, the crowd is too old / young, music is too old-fashioned, the girl they fancied got off with some other guy, etc...), so even with 5 star treatment and a good male retention record we still get twice as many women.
    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    I agree UP - but how to get the message across? I often think with a lot of the discussions on here that there are some very good (and very bad!) ideas floating about which Ceroc would do well to take note of, but I doubt that senior management even read them, let alone take notice of them (Franck excepted of course). It's a shame, as there is a lot of passion for modern jive on this forum, as well as experience. I also find it quite frustrating sometimes.

    What is Ceroc's business philosophy? Is it to provide a good service, or is it to make money? If the latter, then their current business model is probably serving them just fine.
    This is not true, most of us do listen, and go beyond listening, we actually do market research (phone, questionaires, forum feedback and database mining) to improve our retention rate, as Under Par says, retaining more men would be a financially rewarding strategy.
    The Ceroc business philosophy is to introduce as many people as possible to the wonders of partner dancing, and to make sure that we don't lose people in the first few weeks / months so that they enjoy dancing for years after they start. I'm frustrated that we (Ceroc) keep getting accused of 'just wanting to make money' as most of us really do it for the love of dance and indeed running regular classes is a very poor way to make real money for the time / commitment / effort involved (compared to other businesses).
    Franck.

    There's an A.P.P. for that!

  14. #14
    Groovemeister
    Guest

    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    TBH i think there is a more fundamental problem than getting good leaders and that is a question I asked when I was fisrt on the forum "why do men dance"

    A minority dance because they genuinly want to learn and become dancers.

    Most men dance because of various reasons i.e. there wife/girlfriend does, they want to meet people/women etc.

    Add into that the you dance you must be "GAY" factor and low and behold you have the answer. I have around 150 men work for me in engineering company's and it is not even a consideration to dance in any way shape or form. I don't even broadcast the fact I dance.

    I also realise that I am in the minority of men who dance and want to progress. I was commenting last night on how many guy's who started when I did are just doing the same old routines with no musicality.

    I would say firstly to get guy's in the door and hold on to them you need to change their impression of dancing I don't know how you could do it but I would say that was the starting point.
    Last edited by Groovemeister; 30th-May-2007 at 11:14 AM.

  15. #15
    Registered User Spiky Steve's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Beckenham
    Posts
    433
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: Dance partners

    Quote Originally Posted by under par View Post
    I think there are loads of women dancers who would like to compete and not so many men.
    Be careful what you wish for. Obviously it's a good thing for us all to improve. It's one thing to develop leads and another to encourage them to compete. When people are competing they tend to concentrate on dancing with their partners or partners. This means your lead is now less available and hence reducing the availability for a followers. Competition negates what you are trying to achieve - more available good leads!

    We all know people who generally mostly dance with their competition dance partners.

    I have been practicing to compete for a few months. I really enjoyed returning to dancing with beginners and improvers last night and also watched them in the beginners review class and seeing the happiness in their faces. The look that inspired me to proceed through the pain of learning to dance. Great music at ISH too

  16. #16
    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Glasgow
    Posts
    3,045
    Blog Entries
    2
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Consider also the other aspect - men who have been 'retained' but whose leading is poor. I am sure all forumite followers could name a few of these. How can this group become desirable partners? Do followers have a 'pay it forward' type duty here to nurture these leaders?
    This is a very good point, and a more subtle one to address. Once people are 'sold' on the idea of partner dancing and reach a certain comfort level, it's difficult to motivate them to work (often pretty hard) to move to the next level.
    Getting the balance right between encouraging comments and Twirly / Woodface's "There was a new lead at my regular class the last two weeks who belongs on Woodfaces "should we tell beginners the truth" thread" approach is tricky as bad feedback might put off leaders who just need a bit more time / confidence to become great, but being too nice will never give them the incentive to progress...

    There are ways, I know I've tried introducing the 'Focus workshops' to add technique and as Lynn says sending those guys to week-enders often proves a turning point for them, which is why it's great that week-enders are so much more available and affordable these days, but ultimately, it's a patience game, and the more 'good leads' we have the more guys will want to learn and join that group...
    Franck.

    There's an A.P.P. for that!

  17. #17
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Stoke-on-Trent
    Posts
    948
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Quote Originally Posted by under par View Post

    All the busking and advertising they do to attract newcomers is great .... but then they get people through the doors and most of the men fail to stay more than a few weeks.
    Agreed it's great that they are always pushing for newbies. However I can't help but feel that the newbies take priority over the other dancers. It's all about the newbies for Ceroc. It doesn't make for a great night when you have a class of newbies and hardly any established dancers. This is especially true for followers. While I always dance with new man I also need to have some good leads there, some established leads who know what they are doing to make it a good night for me. You are so true that this fact gets overlooked time and time again.

    As an extra twist it seems to be much harder for men right at the beginning. On a ladies first night they can get taken on the floor by an experienced dancer, spun around and made to feel like they are really dancing. A man doesn't get this. They have to lead. They sit and watch all the other leads and think I will never be able to do this and when they try to lead their mind goes blank, they freeze, then panic and this backs up the 'I'm not going to be able to do this theory'. That's why sadly so may men leave. I know how tough it was for Stokie and he only persevered because he knew how badly I wanted us to dance. A lot of men sadly don't have any incentive to persevere so understandably, just quit.

    Quote Originally Posted by under par View Post
    Surely the ladies who are sat out or leaving early are paying customers too and deserve to get a similar level of service and satisfaction for their money.
    Sadly the common attitude seems to be once they are in they have paid their money so it makes no difference if they leave early. I have actually had one organiser say this to me. Obviously enough people turn up week after week that no extra effort is required.

    Quote Originally Posted by under par View Post
    If my theory is right and you agree that without leaders there is no partner dancing thus no MJ......... then it follows that if you want lots of people paying for their night out dancing MJ you must provide lots of leaders.
    Leaders are so important but that fact gets overlooked. I'm very fortunate that I hardly ever find myself sat out of a dance when it's not my choice to be sat out. However if I did find myself missing more and more dances due to a lack of men and a lack of being asked then I would start leaving early and that would lead to just not bothering to go in the first place. This is so sad.

    Another thing to back up what you are saying is sometimes my decision to attend a certain freestyle is based on whose going to be there. If I know that there are going to be some particulary good leads there then I will go to that event. I am guaranteed a good night. Fortunately for me (just like Mrs Underpar) I am married to a fabulous lead so I am pretty much guaranteed a good night every night but you know what I mean. If this sways my decision then it must sway other ladies too.

    Quote Originally Posted by under par View Post
    They must ensure that every new leader (normally male) that comes through the door, should be given the 5 star treatment in order to train and retain them for the benefit of all the women who need leaders and would prefer good, well trained leaders.
    Absolutely. Again completely overlooked. Organisers/teachers tend to cater to these beginners by teaching them more and more moves. It seems to be all about the moves. This is what the beginners get taught. This is why their heads get jammed with more and more moves and they try desperately hard to put them all into their freestyle and then feel bad when they can't do this. It becomes apparent as you advance that it's not about moves. You can have stunning dances and use only a very small amount of moves. The fantastic leads that everyone raves about certainly are not move monsters. There's so much more to dancing than moves. Why these beginners are not taught this fails me. They need to be taught the very basics of leading. They need to understand that they can have a good dance with just a few simple moves. I'm sure this would make it so much easier for them and this would encourage the men to stay and persevere. It would also mean we would be left with great leaders. They are not going to get us on the dance floor and tangle us up with every single variation of pretzel they know!

    Quote Originally Posted by under par View Post
    Am I talking sense? or have I missed out an important bit and have got it totally wrong.
    Unfortunately you are talking complete sense. It is the majority of the organisers that have missed out an important bit and got it wrong. The MJ scene is not going to get any better until this message starts getting across. Maybe newer teachers with a different attitude and outlook will start to get the message through. All we can do in the meantime is try to take beginners under our wings a little and help them understand that there's more to dancing than moves and continue to encourage and support them.

  18. #18
    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Glasgow
    Posts
    3,045
    Blog Entries
    2
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirlie Bird View Post
    Unfortunately you are talking complete sense. It is the majority of the organisers that have missed out an important bit and got it wrong. The MJ scene is not going to get any better until this message starts getting across.
    I'm assuming you hadn't read my reply before you posted yours to Under Par. You are quite wrong about 'the majority of organisers', we haven't missed out an important bit, we try to juggle many factors that make our nights successful and take MJ forward.
    The most common complaint is for someone who has danced between 6 and 12 months to say that we don't cater for 'them' and that we should change the format of our events, failing to realise that the reason they are still dancing after a year is because we run our nights that way, changing it would have possibly lost them in the first few weeks.
    Of course we must provide more for Intermediate dancers, workshops, focus classes, tea-dances, freestyles with guest teachers, different intermediate classes with extra focus on technique / style, week-enders, etc... but we must be cautious about wholesale changes.
    Franck.

    There's an A.P.P. for that!

  19. #19
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Back in London
    Posts
    507
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Quote Originally Posted by under par View Post
    The more I think about it the more I am confused that the majority of MJ organisers don't get it.
    ~snip~

    leaders are a commodity.

    They are necessary for a MJ event.

    A commodity has a worth.

    A good leader then has more worth.

    An event that attracts lots of good leaders will generally have lots of followers of all levels.

    As an MJ organiser surely the more attending the more money made.

    So it must be financially worth while for MJ organisers to prioritise their training for their most needed commodity... leaders
    Before I get to the serious response, I cannot pass up the opportunity of a dig at a certain organiser that shall remain nameless

    Firstly the leaders would than likely be required to obtain certification (that no one else really recognises) - for insurance purposes, then be bound by contract to only lead at the said organisers events

    Firstly the social dance business model has been successful in bringing the joy of dancing (as a social activity) to many more people than would have found it otherwise. In addition, it is because of this success that we find ourselves in this situation.

    Firstly lets assume for the sake of this thread that Leader = Man.

    Many men in dancing equate dancing Modern Jive with the number and complexity of the moves they can do, and why not, this is what is taught from day one. - And let’s face it, if it was any tougher how many of us would have come back of our own volition - Also Followers are taught the moves at the same time. -How many classes have you done where the follower does the move whilst watching the stage and takes no notice of your lead whatsoever - The combination of the above gives us the majority of the practioners in the social dance scene.

    As in any other interest group there will a percentage usually small that feel the need to expand, explore and develop further. The key word is small, why change a successful "Business" model to cater for the minority. It won’t happen. Lets not forget The majority are happy under the current model which caters to them more than adequately.

    It is therefore comes down to the number of supplementary learning resources available and do they reflect the market.

    A further point to ponder is a lot of Leaders still equates move complexity with advancement.

    We are talking about teaching Dancers which is a wholly different proposition!!
    Last edited by mikeyr; 30th-May-2007 at 11:51 AM. Reason: Clarity

  20. #20
    Groovemeister
    Guest

    Re: Improving the male dancer "stock"

    Here is an article I got of the net some time ago. It's a bit long I know but worth putting into word and reading at some point but as I say I think you need to address the fundamentals first.

    Why Men Won't Dance
    Last edited by ducasi; 30th-May-2007 at 12:51 PM. Reason: Replaced copyright material with link

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. One Blaze ticket - male or female!
    By Classified Adverts in forum Chit Chat
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 23rd-April-2007, 12:20 AM
  2. What's an intermediate dancer?
    By David Bailey in forum Intermediate Corner
    Replies: 46
    Last Post: 12th-March-2007, 03:06 PM
  3. Replies: 36
    Last Post: 9th-March-2007, 08:27 PM
  4. Windows Media Dancer - What the??
    By TurboTomato in forum Chit Chat
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 10th-December-2006, 09:01 AM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •