In defence of 'moves'

[bigdjiver]

I have watched the clip posted by 'woodface' about ten times now, and I would enjoy watching it again. I understood that he wanted reactions to the moves included to help him and Coni choose which to work on and include in their routines. I just accepted any imperfections as due to the novelty of some of the moves and the environment.

I have not seen the CerocX finals video, and I am sure that the dancers in them would inspire me, but I cannot believe that I would want to watch them 10 times. There are many of the great and the good that post here saying that it is not how many moves that you know, but how well you do them. To me the moves are the plot and the vocabulary, and are what keeps my interest. How well they are done is the spelling and the grammar, and I have never bought a book for the quality of its spelling and grammar (though errors do make a text less enjoyable).

To sum up, I am quite content with the way Ceroc classes are taught within my experience, quite content to throw away 19 / 20 of the moves taught, and quite content to complain about a few of them.

[LMC]

Dances that feel absolutely fantastic may not always be that interesting to the observers. And dances that look wonderful to an observer may not always feel that great to the participants - how many of us have never asked to dance with someone because they looked fantastic, but were actually really difficult to lead/follow?

To me the moves are the plot and the vocabulary, and are what keeps my interest. How well they are done is the spelling and the grammar, and I have never bought a book for the quality of its spelling and grammar (though errors do make a text less enjoyable).

Good analogy, but I would put it the other way around, actually. IMO, the beginners' moves are the basic structure of the dance language - the grammar if you will. How they are put together forms the 'plot' - so yes, a certain number of moves are needed to create sufficient plot. Style and variations are the vocabulary that add interest to the plot.

I have never bought a book for the quality of its spelling and grammar either. But the structure of those may make it unenjoyable.

As a lead, I treat classes the same way - I may add one move from the class to my still very limited repertoire. I think the high "it's not about the number of moves" consensus (guilty as charged) is a backlash against the lack of "grammar" teaching by most Ceroc operators - too much focus on how many shiny new long words you can learn with no training in how to put them together most comprehensibly and effectively.

[Beowulf]

To me the moves are the plot and the vocabulary, and are what keeps my interest. How well they are done is the spelling and the grammar, and I have never bought a book for the quality of its spelling and grammar (though errors do make a text less enjoyable).

Good analogy, but I would put it the other way around, actually. IMO, the beginners' moves are the basic structure of the dance language - the grammar if you will. How they are put together forms the 'plot' - so yes, a certain number of moves are needed to create sufficient plot. Style and variations are the vocabulary that add interest to the plot.

I have never bought a book for the quality of its spelling and grammar either. But the structure of those may make it unenjoyable.

Hmm.. "feersum enjin" anyone?

I have a limited vocabulary, and I sometimes spell things wrong or put things in the wrong order. But generally I get my sentence across and occasionally do a little dance floor haiku .. Small ... but perfectly formed. However those times are rare.. more often than not I'm the dance floor equivalent of Professor Stanley Unwin .. amusingly incomprehensible

[David Franklin]

I have not seen the CerocX finals video, and I am sure that the dancers in them would inspire me, but I cannot believe that I would want to watch them 10 times. There are many of the great and the good that post here saying that it is not how many moves that you know, but how well you do them. To me the moves are the plot and the vocabulary, and are what keeps my interest. How well they are done is the spelling and the grammar, and I have never bought a book for the quality of its spelling and grammar (though errors do make a text less enjoyable).

I don't know how it breaks down for other people, but I'd guess 90% of my dancing uses less than 20 moves (as I think Ducasi said somewhere: travelling return = greatest move ever). Then there are a lot of other moves that make up the 10%. Those other moves are disproportionately important, as they are the ones that add highlights and interest. But at the end of the day, you can manage without them. Whereas 90% of the time, people will be looking at (or experiencing) your basics. If they suck, then so does the dance.

To continue the analogy about vocabulary, in SF fandom, there's a hugely famous story "The Eye of Argon". Famous, for being really, really bad, unfortunately. And one of the main complaints is that the author clearly overused a thesaurus without actually understanding what many of the words actually meant. Of course, you can take it in many ways: in some ways the story has been a huge success. It's been read by thousands, it has a place in SF folklore. And part of that is that it's not really that bad. It's reasonably plotted and coherent (for fanfic). But it's the poorly used vocabulary that damns it.

[bigdjiver]

Hmm.. "feersum enjin" anyone? ...

Feersum Endjinn is a science fiction novel by Scottish writer Iain M. Banks, first published in 1994. It won a British Science Fiction Association Award in 1994.

It won an award - my case rests.

[Ghost]

I think it's just that different people want different things. I know one lady who'd rather follow lots of different "interesting" moves poorly led, than a few simple moves well led. And I know a lady who'd much rather follow a few simple moves well led than lots of different "interesting" moves poorly led. And I know another lady who's somewhere in between. I love dancing with all of them (I just need to remember which is which )

[Lou]

I know one lady who'd rather follow lots of different "interesting" moves poorly led

I'd like to learn from this lady. I need to work on following a poor lead...

(Seriously - I bet she backleads & anticipates!)

[ducasi]

... (as I think Ducasi said somewhere: travelling return = greatest move ever) ...

To give credit where it's due, I think it was Franck that first pointed this out to me.

About "moves"...

In MJ, bits of moves can usually be broken down into what you might term "syllables" and reformed in different ways, with the resultant "new" move should be understandable by a competent follower, assuming the move is well-formed.

Rather than focussing on complete moves, I think classes should instead focus more on the syllables of dancing, allowing people to build up their own moves on the spot which fit with the music, rather than be limited to the number of moves they have been taught. Working with smaller units of movement can also improve the "flow" of a leader's dancing – the gaps between moves tend to disappear as the syllables of movement blend into one another.

That's not to say that there isn't a place for standard, taught, moves in MJ – much of my dancing is based on standard moves like the first move, yoyo, basket, etc... (Though my yoyo, first move, etc., tend not to look especially like the one taught to beginners.)

Usually though, especially when I am dancing with a follower who is in tune with me, I try to break out of the straight-jacket of moves and allow myself greater expression using the syllables of this dance language that I know to do something a little bit more special.

[Ghost]

I'd like to learn from this lady. I need to work on following a poor lead...

Try asking someone who can dance well (ie no yanking, jerking etc) to lead moves they're still working on

(Seriously - I bet she backleads & anticipates!)

Nup - she can follow Jango moves she doesn't know at full Ceroc speed

Bear in mind I barely know some of the stuff I've lead on her, so there's no way she's going to be able to recognise / backlead / anticipate it.

[Gadget]

Rather than focussing on complete moves, I think classes should instead focus more on the syllables of dancing, ~

Hmmm..... ... moves, moves, moves

That's not to say that there isn't a place for standard, taught, moves in MJ...

I think that the selection of standard, taught, beginner, moves are very good: each puts five or six syllables together to give a move. Five or six different syllables. And that's the most important bit - each move contains unique elements with perhaps a couple of shared ones.

They have common syllables like stepping back and stepping in. They give structure of hand levels and orientations you can use to build your own 'words' within. They show how to join syllables together with contact, connection, pressure and tension.

By mixing up these elements you get the "intermediate" moves. Any 'syllable' within an intermediate move that is not a 'syllable' in a basic move somewhere is normally some form of styling*.

The beginner class is not really about teaching the beginner moves; it should be about teaching the movements within the moves. By removing a couple of the returns from the classes (which was one of the identifying features of "ceroc"), the boundaries between moves are being broken down. Attendees of beginner classes are being shown that one move need not 'end' with X or 'start' with Y - this is the start of wondering exactly where moves can be started and when you can say a move has finished.

(*There are a few exceptions - dip/seducer, elbow roll, duck under, hip block, shoulder block.)


Most of my dancing 'exploration' has been in this feild - many, many, many hours(years ) of thought, practice, trial and error have gone into it. I'm still discovering new ways to join various elements.

Usually though, especially when I am dancing with a follower who is in tune with me, I try to break out of the straight-jacket of moves and allow myself greater expression using the syllables of this dance language that I know to do something a little bit more special.

What can I say? I'm special!
Dancing like this is the main reason that I no longer consider myself to dance "ceroc", but dance "Modern Jive" - Ceroc have taught me all the elements, but I'm not using them in the way that Ceroc teaches. {Taught?... is this changing?...}

[Lou]

Try asking someone who can dance well (ie no yanking, jerking etc) to lead moves they're still working on

Oh, I'd happily dance with someone who leads well, but is working on moves. That's fine.

It's just you'd said "poorly led", which indicated to me a "moves monster" - you know - the type who'll just put every move he knows into a routine, regardless of the music or ability to do the move well. I couldn't imagine any reasonable woman prefering that!

[Beowulf]

Hmmm..... ... moves, moves, moves

Seen that before but once again

Having read that again it actually makes more sense to me now than it did the first time I read it. Have to stick that onto my IPAQ for reading on the move (Printing things off is soooo last year you know daaaahlings! )

[ducasi]

... Have to stick that onto my IPAQ for reading on the move (Printing things off is soooo last year you know daaaahlings! )

Can't you put it on your phone? Having a mobile phone and a PDA is so 5 years ago...

[Ghost]

Oh, I'd happily dance with someone who leads well, but is working on moves. That's fine.

It's just you'd said "poorly led", which indicated to me a "moves monster" - you know - the type who'll just put every move he knows into a routine, regardless of the music or ability to do the move well. I couldn't imagine any reasonable woman prefering that!

there's a definite range of preference though about following moves that are being worked on. Some like it, some don't. Happy to oblige both.

Also thinking about it, in my experience there's also a spectrum of preference from:

Likes to follow pure motion (pretty much free-form dance)
to
Likes to follow movements (Gadgetised dancing)
to
Likes to follow moves

Again I'm happy to dance the way the follow wishes.

[Jhutch]

there's a definite range of preference though about following moves that are being worked on. Some like it, some don't. Happy to oblige both.

Should you feel you have to oblige both? Isn't it a bit selfish of someone to only want the finished article and not help along the way?

*Well, ok, if someone is happy to help with following moves then maybe it isnt that selfish perhaps but why should they rely on someone else to do the harder work?

[Twirly]

Again I'm happy to dance the way the follow wishes.

How do you know what your follow wishes though? Particularly if it's someone whom you've never danced with before?

[Ghost]

Should you feel you have to oblige both?

It's a personal choice on my part. I'm quite comfortable and happy dancing in all the ways I mentioned so it makes more sense to match the follow.

Isn't it a bit selfish of someone to only want the finished article and not help along the way?

It's a hobby. They're not teachers. They may well have helped others earlier in their dancing career.

How do you know what your follow wishes though? Particularly if it's someone whom you've never danced with before?

I'm considering getting ladies to fill in some kind of form detailing their preferences, injuries, areas of expertise etc

With ladies I know, I ask. With ladies I don't know then it's educated guesswork. It usually only a preference on their part anyway, so it's not the end of the world if I'm dancing in a different style to the way they'd ideally like.

[TA Guy]

There is nothing wrong with knowing lots of moves. There is nothing wrong with being a 'move monster'. 'Move monster' has unfortunately, and wrongly, achieved a slightly derogatory emphasize on this forum.

What people mean when they use 'move monster' in a derogatory sense is something you'd have to ask them, but in most instances on this forum, what they seem to mean is 'I wish people were smoother dancers'. That is not the same thing as 'I wish they knew fewer moves'.

Wanting to learn lots of moves is a phase. It's a natural progression of the teaching method employed at 99.99% of MJ venues which revolves around learning moves. Virtually every lead goes thru this phase. It is also an essential part of the road to becoming a good dancer. Why? because it's the dipping of the toe into many waters out of which comes your own style, your own preferences and greater experience.

Later, as the lead gets more experienced, at least two things start to happen. One, they start to refine their own style, and along with this comes a natural filtering of their moves to suit that style. Usually this involved dropping some moves. And two, they start to realise which moves they are good at executing, and which moves they are bad at executing. Knowing their own limitations in other words, which also usually results in some moves being dropped.
So the natural progression, after the 'move monster' phase, is to reduce the number of moves a lead uses. However, even after this progression, if you start from a high enough number of known moves, it is still possible to have a huge repertoire, to be a 'move monster'. It is a relative thing.

So, all in all, I sometimes find the way 'move monster' is used on this forum to be similar to the way 'bouncers' and other slightly derogatory phrases are sometimes used. I.E Not very intelligently and with a dose of hotshot'edness thrown in for good measure.



As well as learning good technique and smoothness, when it comes to moves, variety is the spice of life. Don't let some move-challenged hotshots on here put you off!

[robd]

There is nothing wrong with knowing lots of moves. There is nothing wrong with being a 'move monster'. 'Move monster' has unfortunately, and wrongly, achieved a slightly derogatory emphasize on this forum.

What people mean when they use 'move monster' in a derogatory sense is something you'd have to ask them, but in most instances on this forum, what they seem to mean is 'I wish people were smoother dancers'. That is not the same thing as 'I wish they knew fewer moves'.

A big

I wish I knew more moves and could execute them smoothly - it would stop me getting bored with my own dancing.

[Gojive]

...eminently sensible post...

I have to confess I've used the term 'move monster' before - this post has certainly made me think twice about it now