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Thread: Does experience matter?

  1. #61
    Papa Smurf
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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    I admit English is not my native language,
    I don't think it's woodfaces either

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    Although WF knows I am ignoring him, I find through the quote by Andy that he is actually addressing posts to me.

    What I'm gonna say is pretty simple: when people first post on this forum, as far as I am concerned they have some basic level of respect, i.e. fellow dance addict and potential forum friend. From then on, if they consistently demonstrate insensible posting behaviour, they go into the 'consistent insensible' box, aka the moron's box.
    WF has been remarkably consistent in being insensible, therefore is deeply buried in the aforementioned box. Now it'd take some pretty serious and sustained sensible behaviour for me to consider un-buring him and putting him in a more 'friendly' box, shall we say.
    He might be a nice chap in real life, I don't know the only thing I can base my opinion on are his posts on the forum. And those lead me to believe that he and I wouldn't have a great load of shared interests.

    Because you ask for it WF, I'll un-ignore you for a while. You want respect, earn it.

    If that's important to you, then I suggest you stop trolling, and post sensibly.
    If not, then keep going: you post in your infamous provocative moronic style, and I reply accordingly. You enjoy creating trouble, and I am playing your game (well, when I'm not ignoring you). So what exactly are you complaining about?

    I think you are the only person on this forum with whom I am not looking forward to dancing. It has to be said, it's a first.
    I trust that answers your PM as well.
    Well, personally, I look for the moronic postings and there I identify a person I can identify with (being myself a some time moronic poster). Someone who can take a Camusian perspective on things and reflect the absurdity (that is Camusian absurdity) of dancing wins hands down.

  3. #63
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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    Camusian absurdity
    and that'd be a pleonasm.

    PS: feel free to forward this to the pedant's corner
    Last edited by Caro; 21st-May-2007 at 04:30 PM.

  4. #64
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    Now it'd take some pretty serious and sustained sensible behaviour for me to consider un-buring him and putting him in a more 'friendly' box, shall we say.
    Dear God WoodFace... just think, some serious posts and you could be introduced to Caro's 'friendly box'..

  5. #65
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    I'm sorry Gus, but this has got to be the 'funniest' thing you have written - all these spelling mistakes in just one post...

    Amoir and Kate dnacing a jave fusion called Jamgo. The peolle amdit they are the best instriuctors because of their muisc knowledge but there will alwys be excpstions to teh rules ...

    Have you got a faulty keyboard or some kind of special numpty glasses goin on or what??
    All the above ... its called too much baracrdi and coke, trying to focus on doing my accounts on the other PC, half asleep but mostly being a cr@p typist and not having the good manners to spell check before I post .... sorry

  6. #66
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    Re: Does experience matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    Think I might just invent my own language
    good idea, you're half way there already

  7. #67
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    Well the obvious glaring exception of Woodface, the current UK double trouble champ, that seems like a pretty solid list. Is this a first; something we actually agree on Gus
    Urrrr maybe not. The point I made earlier is that winning a competition does NOT mean that someone is competent to teach or spot what someone is doing wrong.

    Not picking on WF in particular, but the non-core events (doube trouble, aerials etc) at the MJ competitions have had variable quality over the years ... but more particularly, there have been winners of the main freestyle competitions have admitted that they couldn't tell someone else to dance as they do. Old story/fable is that a previous (succesfull) coach of the British swimming team couldn't actualy swim.

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Urrrr maybe not. The point I made earlier is that winning a competition does NOT mean that someone is competent to teach or spot what someone is doing wrong.

    Not picking on WF in particular, but the non-core events (doube trouble, aerials etc) at the MJ competitions have had variable quality over the years ... but more particularly, there have been winners of the main freestyle competitions have admitted that they couldn't tell someone else to dance as they do. Old story/fable is that a previous (succesfull) coach of the British swimming team couldn't actualy swim.
    Of course Gus, how very silly of me to even consider that you may agree with something I said. I'm sure there may come a day when you are able to get over yourself and actually discuss things reasonably without being so deliberately obtuse; although I won't hold my breath

  9. #69
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    Of course Gus, how very silly of me to even consider that you may agree with something I said. I'm sure there may come a day when you are able to get over yourself and actually discuss things reasonably without being so deliberately obtuse; although I won't hold my breath
    Sorry to dissapoint ... but I don't see what is obtuse. I'm proffering my opinion

    My view is FWIW that just being able to do something does not neccesarily mean you can teach something. A point that had been mooted elsewhere. Is this something you disagree with ... or just disagree with me expressing a view?

    Now remembering why I escaped from Stoke

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Is it important to know the experience / expertise of the person making the post?
    {snip}
    There has always got to be room for all to voice their opinion, but if someone is new to the game are they likely to not recognise the wise words of the Oracle and instead be persuaded by comments by any miscellaneous numpty?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Sorry to dissapoint ... but I don't see what is obtuse. I'm proffering my opinion

    My view is FWIW that just being able to do something does not neccesarily mean you can teach something. A point that had been mooted elsewhere. Is this something you disagree with ... or just disagree with me expressing a view?
    When you started this thread there was no mention in your post of some one's credentials relying solely on their ability to teach. When drawing up a list of people with expertise, I would have thought that winning a championship at national level would at least qualify that person to discuss the matter with a modicum of authority; rather than marking them out as a miscellaneous numpty.

    It would seem by your earlier derogatory comments about 'quality' of entrants in competitions that this is not the case. Some may even say it was a rather cheap shot at a worthy winner. I was at the championships and saw WF win - remind me, we're you there? Only I don't recall seeing you watching or indeed competing in any of the finals. Woodface is many things, but he is certainly not a miscellaneous numpty when it comes to dancing double trouble. But as that doesn't fit your argument there is a need to realign the goalposts a little

    So I stand by what I said, in my opinion you are just being obtuse. Grind whatever little axe you have with me by all means, but try to keep your contrary stance at least consistent, even if you can't manage plausible. Maybe I'm reading this all wrong, maybe it is this just another half baked, Bacardi fuelled rant? If so I'm sure Woodface will forgive you; he's a pretty decent fella in real life you know.

    I have no problem with you having and expressing your views Gus - however off the wall and crass they may be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Now remembering why I escaped from Stoke
    Such a shame Gus, because we all miss you so very very much

  11. #71
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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    Some may even say it was a rather cheap shot at a worthy winner. I was at the championships and saw WF win - remind me, we're you there? Only I don't recall seeing you watching or indeed competing in any of the finals. Woodface is many things, but he is certainly not a miscellaneous numpty when it comes to dancing double trouble. But as that doesn't fit your argument there is a need to realign the goalposts a little
    Sorry ... I thought I specifically said I wasn't having a go at WF (ok, not as well phrased as I intended ... but I've got no axe to grind with the chap) ... in fact the whole of the posting was about the possibility that some competition winners may not be able to teach. Hmmm ... logic not your strong point ... not a St Jospeh's student were we? little stokie joke


    Actually ... good point raised about the original supposition .... i.e. is it experience that matters when instructing other. Thinking back to those that I've learnt most from, only about half of them have competed ... but the unifying thing was that they either taught me something new or could identify where I was going wrong.

    Some have many years of expereince, e.g. Amir, Roger C ... whereas some where dancers very new to the scene .. Pistol Pete, Jive Brummie and Nadine all had far less MJ experience than me but were able to teach/show me things that really helped me to improve. So .. maybe its not about experience per se but about being able to understand the pupil and teach. Now ... how the heck do you identify and authenticate that?

  12. #72
    Registered User NZ Monkey's Avatar
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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Actually ... good point raised about the original supposition .... i.e. is it experience that matters when instructing other. Thinking back to those that I've learnt most from, only about half of them have competed ... but the unifying thing was that they either taught me something new or could identify where I was going wrong.

    Some have many years of expereince, e.g. Amir, Roger C ... whereas some where dancers very new to the scene .. Pistol Pete, Jive Brummie and Nadine all had far less MJ experience than me but were able to teach/show me things that really helped me to improve. So .. maybe its not about experience per se but about being able to understand the pupil and teach. Now ... how the heck do you identify and authenticate that?
    I'm a teacher in other aspects of my life and I can vouch that teaching and doing are different skills.

    I saw an episode of Extreme House Makeover (not sure if you get that in the UK - it's feel good American television charity program) last night where the subject was an ex-professional ballet dancer who had contracted cerebral palsy and could now only walk with difficulty. She was still able to teach ballet.

    Teaching requires understanding of the subject and empathy with the students. Usually the understanding comes with the ability to do it anyway but not always so. Empathy has nothing to do with either understanding or ability.

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Back to the subject of this thread...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    The point I made earlier is that winning a competition does NOT mean that someone is competent to teach or spot what someone is doing wrong.
    That is sadly all so true. Technique is only one aspect of judging in a competition, and other criterias such as showmanship can make a technically weak couple win over a much sharper couple, who just aren't great performers.

    Then to be a good teacher, you need not only to understand and articulate technique, but more importantly to pass it on to people who might not have the same abilities as yourself (therefore I'd argue it's more difficult for somebody who has 'talent' and picks up dancing technique very easily to be a good teacher, than somebody who has never been particularly fast at learning dancing - there are exceptions of course).

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    Can see where your comming from but there are alot of cases where this isn't true. Cetral Alex and Jamie are two examples from a fairly long list. Im sure Jordan, Tatiana and the WCS lot pick things up really quick. Just makes them naturally talented were as some of us have to work harder for the same things.

    {snip bits about WF and DT}
    In the case of Jamie and CentraAlex, I can't comment, as I have never been taught by them.
    However I know for sure that J&T went through some pretty extensive training both in judging and teaching... So if even the best get trained to teach...

    And please WF we all know by now that you won the DT, can we not make this thread about you - you've explained what your stance is based on your experience many times already. My post, although inspired from a real case of comp winner starting teaching without the basic technique right, wasn't refering to you. At all.

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    Re: Does experience matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Teaching requires understanding of the subject and empathy with the students. Usually the understanding comes with the ability to do it anyway but not always so. Empathy has nothing to do with either understanding or ability.

    It helps a great deal to have an understanding of the processes one went through to learn something.

    I'm pretty good at teaching people to juggle, because I understand how I learned it, and I can break it down very well for people.

    I cannot teach people about computers, even though I've been using 'em intensively for over 24 years. I learned a great deal of it by total immersion in the subject, and I now assume far too much background knowledge that many people do not have - I struggle to explain things to people who don't have that knowledge, and I often struggle to break things down to a level which people will find useful.

    On the juggling front again - I once met a man named Kit Summers - who had been a top professional performer. Then he had a bad accident, which left him brain-damaged - what he lost was all his motor skills, and it was as if he'd 'forgotten' every single movement skill he'd ever learned. So he had to learn again how to walk, talk, feed himself etc... and juggle. Again. His claim is that someone who has had to learn to juggle, from scratch, to a high standard, twice, he is uniquely qualified to teach others.

    I don't know what he'd have been like without the accident, and it was a very hard price to pay, but he's certainly an outstanding teacher now.

  16. #76
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    But...... having said all of that, I don't feel I would be missplaced to tell someone what I thought looked good or help them investigate what was going wrong with a DT dance. Would prob be comfortable teaching a small double trouble routine to a class as well.
    No I think that's fair enough. But I bet you'd get far better with experience.

    I've told this story before, but Andy and Rena (JumpNJive) have won several airsteps competitions, and taught aerials for many years. Every year they would teach a "set" of seven workshops comprising about 50 aerials in total. And my experience of their teaching was that it was excellent. They had a lot of understanding of how to get different couples to do the moves properly, and how different moves would work differently for different people. (Some moves are much easier if the man isn't much bigger than the girl, for some it's the complete opposite, etc.)

    Then they added an eighth workshop of "new" moves. And (IMHO), their teaching of it was much worse than the seven they'd been doing for years. Not because they couldn't do the moves themselves. But because they hadn't yet gained the experience of finding out how different, less technically proficient couples would manage. So even with couples who've already been teaching for years and year, experience matters.

    One caveat about your teaching double trouble: so far, your explanations about what you did don't exactly give me confidence that you would be good at explaining double trouble to other people. There's a certain amount of truth in what someone else said: if you really didn't have to work in order to win the competition, chances are you can't explain how you did it.

  17. #77
    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    Only reason we done DT champs is that the girls thought it would be a laugh and I wanted to make Robd eat his words.
    I wish you'd show me these words that I am supposed to eat. I know we had some sparring going on but am sure it wasn't me that suggested you needed to enter the champs to 'prove' yourself.

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    But I'm really only replying because I wanted to post this link to some really cool double trouble aerials...

    Cool video, though it looks like they only have three or four tricks which they repeat a few times with slight variations...
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    ...The forum is abit of pantomime...
    That's unfortunate.

    You may have some insightfull information to pass on. You may have some genius teaching that will help every reader of the forum. You may say something on musicality that everyone sighs and 'clicks' with. You may have ideas and views on Double Trouble dancing that make everyone sit up and listen.... you may...

    ...but no-one will listen to you or take it seriously because it's all a bit of a pantomime to you. Who wants to learn from the experiance of a comic dame?
    {cue andy}

    "It's behind you!"


    Re: Does expereince matter?
    In my opinion, experiance dosn't matter as much as the information given (and the way it's portrayed).

    I have learned from people who have just stepped through the door - fresh eyes and beginner questions often lead to some searching for the correct answer and the best way to give it.

    I have learned from people who have been dancing all their lives and MJ for most of that - they know what they are teaching and how to teach it.

    I have learned more from people who were "better teachers than dancers" than from people who were "better dancers than teachers". I think that experinace only gives you a bredth of knowledge in what to put forward, not in the depth required or how to put it forward.

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    The forum is abit of pantomime. Everyone gets that. Look at how I rip at Rocky and Andy. They know it's all a laugh and the give it back. Seems the only people who don't realise that is you and Caro. Shame.
    And me. I don't seem to 'realise' it either.

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