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Thread: Does experience matter?

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I have met woodface in real life. I can't say that I know him well, but he seems like a pleasant guy. Does woodface in real-life have and ego? Yes he does, but no more than any of us show-off dancers. However, I find his Forum persona irritating for so, so many reasons. My advice to woodface is to stop posting in the way he does on the Forum if he wants the respect of the members of the Forum.

    Of course, if woodface want to continue to irritate us on here there's nothing we can do to stop him
    Theres not really all that much wrong with what I post. I put my opinion on the forum, people either agree with it or they don't. Sometimes I might say something contraversial but some of the best disscussions going are about contraversy.

    Look at post number 2.......

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    No experiance doesn't matter but skill does.


    Someone might come on to the dance scean and give really good valid advice on aerials that might contradict something someone more experianced says. It wont make them wrong, It could just be the advice that works for them.

    Advice by it's very nature is something that can either be taken on board or ignored, but it is always something that should be considered, no matter who the advice comes from.
    Whats wrong with that statement? Nothing that I can see having re-read it a few times. It's my opinion and that of a few others having read through this thread.

    Now comes a response to that statement.....

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    Oh god. Here we go again! Of course, I know that you're saying it just to wind people up, but unfortunately, it happens, and it's not good to be suggesting it.

    This is SO not true. At least, it has the potential to be not true. And has the potential to be very dangerous.

    {snip}

    Any "advice" that contradicts anything any of these people say, is just stupid. And may well be dangerous.

    Feel free to tell me now how wrong I am, Woodface.
    Now which of these posts is more wrong. Mine giving my opinion to something or Trampys automaticaly trying to make it look like im causing trouble?

    According to Trampys post, you should not take any advice from anyone who's not on his list because it would be stupid. Hmmm your not on that list Mr McGreggor so I had best not ask you for your opinion on some aerials me and Blueeyes might put in to a showcase routine incase it's not the same advice that would be given by someone on his list, even if that advice is about spare arm style. Would be stupid to take advice on holding an egg with a spare arm if DF or Lilly B might sugest jazz hands eh.

    Best not to attend any weekender workshops not run by these people either. Does ceroc know how dangerous it is getting Steve and Lyida teaching baby aerials without ythem first confirming it what those on Trampy's list would say.

    Oh and Indy teachers better not teach any either. Maybe they should loose their insurance or we should destroy their reputation if they teach one at a work shop.

    Howard and Nicolas workshop recently taught a few lifts. I will write a letter of complaint to Mike Ellard that the proper checks were not made before this class was run.

    Lets now take Trampys therory further and any ceroc move has the potential for injury however small the risk may be. Would we all need to do training through one or two people of trampys choice before we teach. Maybe they should be the only ones who teach, or there could be a hotline through to them if a pupil asks a question that has not come up before.

    Of course all conversations of "I like that move, how did you do it?" would have to stop.




    So to sum up my point..........

    Some people might not agree with everything I post however, if it starts a good debate livens the forum up or gives a good laugh, then what is the harm.

    It's the people who deliberatly go out of their way to actually cause trouble that are the problem.





  2. #42
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    I do agree that sometimes though the opinions of certain individuals are taken as sacred and any kind of questioning is shot down with 'Don't you know who you are disagreeing with??' accusations rather than reasoned argument.
    This can be a problem, but in the thread I'm thinking of where this happened, it was in response to someone posting "If you think that you obviously don't know much about aerials...", so the response was somewhat justified.

    More generally, on an internet forum where anyone can claim anything, there's only so far you can go with reasoned argument if someone is hell bent on insisting "I can so do it like this". The "expert" says "it doesn't work (looks crap/is dangerous etc)" and gets the response "it does work if you do it properly".

    At which point you are very much down to deciding which person's credentials are more credible.

    Similarly, when seeking to strengthen the value of their own opinions some forumites will announce that 'famous name X also believes this/teaches this/says this so I must be right'.
    I've certainly used this argument, but generally in response to the credentials deadlock above. Because if, for example, a multiple world champion says "X is dangerous and we don't do it", I would hope people would see that it is a bit ridiculous to say "Well, it's not dangerous if you do it properly". (In practice, however, I was accused of arguing from authority, so ...)

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    {snip}

    There really is a valid argument for both things. I would hope in the case of aerials commons sense would prevail to ensure safty. Quite frankly, if a couple are stupid enough to practise aerials without ensuring safty of them or making sure things are as risk free as possible, then they should expect an injury.

    My advice about aerials would be to make sure things are done with safty in mind all the time. Me and Blueyes are just going to start doing a donut drop (then hopefully work out a double trouble donut drop) but not without ensuring we have 2 spotters, pleanty of soft flooring (crash mats etc), have the finest deails of the move worked out, spotting where things have the potential to go wrong, having a safty word and a way of bailing out for both people if things dont feel right and breaking the move down in to stages.

    I don't know if that, if this was given to someone as advice, it would be contraditionary to what any of the experts would say, but I feel it would be valid advice anyhow.

    If I was to see someone attempting to practise a dangerous aerial without them taking the above steps then I certainly feel I should step in and give them the 'advice' stated above no matter what my credentials.





    * on a seperate thought, most of the winning Double Trouble routine was aerials. Does this mean my aerials opining carrys some weight now?

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    If I wanted to dance like DanceGodX I might watch DGX and listen to DGX, pr, perhaps more effectively, learn from those that taught DGX. I am sure at the end of the day the best I could hope for would be to look like I was trying to dance like DGX. Whatever, I would not really consider myself an expert in anything if I was not able to listen to any advice and decide for myself whether it was good or bad.

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    Whatever, I would not really consider myself an expert in anything if I was not able to listen to any advice and decide for myself whether it was good or bad.
    If that's in response to my post, I'm perfectly able to listen to the advice from the Savoys and decide that I agree with it. Because I know darn well from experience that I would find "it" (leading full-on aerials without signals or pre-arrangement) impossibly difficult and dangerous.

    But the point is that on here, you will get people saying "you might not be able to do it, but I'm sure I could if I worked at it".

    Theoretically they might even have a point, but I think that if arguably the best couple in the world aren't good enough to make it work, perhaps it's time to accept it's just not a viable concept.

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    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    Howard and Nicolas workshop recently taught a few lifts.
    This reminds me of another element of the debate namely, do 'experts' practice what they preach? I have never been to a workshop by H&N and only pick them out as woodface mentions them above and made me remember this but I was watching their recap of a drops and dips class at one of the ceroc weekenders. They gave advice on posture and general do/don'ts prior to demoing the moves. One don't they highlighted was for followers to fling their head back during a dip. The very first dip they then demoed saw N throw her head right back contrary to everything they had just said

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Theoretically they might even have a point, but I think that if arguably the best couple in the world aren't good enough to make it work, perhaps it's time to accept it's just not a viable concept.

    I don't think thats true. Someone may be the best couple in the world but it doesn't automaticaly make them the best in all aspects of what they do.

    What if a new unheard of couple came on the sceane and won everything that year. Their advice might have been dismissed earlier on as a 'who are you to say'


    If a mechanic told me something I would trust his opinion more than that of the man down the pub. The man down the pub might be right though.

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    What if a new unheard of couple came on the sceane and won everything that year. Their advice might have been dismissed earlier on as a 'who are you to say'
    If they're that good, I would have to wonder why they are wasting their timing posting on a Ceroc forum!

    More seriously, if you know what you're talking about, I think people do generally work it out. I think a good example in point would be Andreas; within a few posts my assessment of him was "I dunno who you are, but you seem to really know your stuff".

    If a mechanic told me something I would trust his opinion more than that of the man down the pub. The man down the pub might be right though.
    Suppose you were a mechanic and the man down the pub posted on a forum "you know a really good tip? Pour a pound of sugar into the petrol tank, it doubles the fuel economy".

    Would you post that he's wrong, or would you say "well, I wouldn't do it myself, but you never know, he might be right?".

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    If that's in response to my post...
    It was not. It was something I had been planning to post for over two hours.

    .... Because I know darn well from experience that I would find "it" (leading full-on aerials without signals or pre-arrangement) impossibly difficult and dangerous...
    I know that from just thinking about it.

    But the point is that on here, you will get people saying "you might not be able to do it, but I'm sure I could if I worked at it".
    They said that about flying for centuries, and the words are buried in countless graves. Eventually the Wright men appeared...

    Theoretically they might even have a point, but I think that if arguably the best couple in the world aren't good enough to make it work, perhaps it's time to accept it's just not a viable concept.
    ... but "impossible" was the way to bet.

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post

    Suppose you were a mechanic and the man down the pub posted on a forum "you know a really good tip? Pour a pound of sugar into the petrol tank, it doubles the fuel economy".

    Would you post that he's wrong, or would you say "well, I wouldn't do it myself, but you never know, he might be right?".

    But then that is ob, just like if someone said do a swan dive without holding your partner, it make's it look neater. If your dumb enough not to realise your partner is going to end up flat on her face, then no matter who gives you advice, there's no hope.


    I agree with what your saying prob to a greater extent than you realise. My argument is, people shouldn't just dis-regard someones advice because they are not a 'name' in the world of dance. They should dis-regard it if it doesn't work for them or undermimes their own better judgment.

    As a I have said before, I know you are well respected on the forum and dance world, but I can't honestly say "Yes DF is a God of aerials and dance" as I have never seen you dancing. Doesn't mean I won't listen to your advice but it does mean that your advice would prob be of greater weight to me if I saw and liked what you did, rather than what others say they like.

    Hope this makes sence without causing offence.

    Really looking forward to seeing a showcase or something from you to see what all the fuss is about. Any clips on youtube or anything



    Anyway....

    I think the idea of having an advice panel is not a good one because....


    a) people prob wont listen anyway
    b) Who chooses the panel?
    c) what if someone on the panel was to give bad / dangerous advice who would be in a position to say they are wring?
    d) how many topics would be covered? Spinning, shoes etc etc all have questions
    e) Would create an elitist feeling.

  11. #51
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    But then that is ob, just like if someone said do a swan dive without holding your partner, it make's it look neater. If your dumb enough not to realise your partner is going to end up flat on her face, then no matter who gives you advice, there's no hope.
    What is obvious to one person is not to another.

    For instance I'm pretty sure it is possible to do a swan dive without holding your partner (I don't know how difficult it would be, but at worst case you could start with a 7 foot base and a 4 foot 6 top, and even at full extension she's not going to hit the floor). But it would be pretty stupid to give it out as general advice just because it might be possible for some couple somewhere.

    I agree with what your saying prob to a greater extent than you realise. My argument is, people shouldn't just dis-regard someones advice because they are not a 'name' in the world of dance. They should dis-regard it if it doesn't work for them or undermimes their own better judgment.
    To a large extent this is true, because generally the best way to learn is through experience and experiment. The problem is when safety is involved, because lying in an ambulance is a very poor way of finding out the advice someone you gave you really wasn't very good. (This is one of the reasons discussions about aerials on here tend to get heated).

    The other difficulty is people's "better" judgement is always coloured by their own experience or lack of it. People often don't know what they're really doing when they are dancing, and this is particularly true with aerials. (I frequently have no idea what's gone wrong during a move - it all happens so fast, and the priority is saving your partner, not making notes).

    Now I have seen literally hundreds of aerials go wrong to some extent or other without injury. And the thing is, very few people see those near-misses as anything serious, they end up sprawling on the floor laughing (and why not, I don't expect them to cry!). But in many of the actual accidents I've seen, you can trace it back to the near misses. Basically, they were doing the move badly, and I'm sure would have insisted "no, it's perfectly safe like this, we've done it like this a hundred times". Then came the hundred-and-first.

    [The one really scary fall Bryony's had was learning the Dulaine, and in hindsight it was exactly the scenario above. Occasionally it would go wrong, I'd grab her leg to save her - no problem. Until the time I didn't catch the leg ].

    As a I have said before, I know you are well respected on the forum and dance world, but I can't honestly say "Yes DF is a God of aerials and dance" as I have never seen you dancing.
    Heck, I can't honestly say that. I'm a pretty average dancer. I am pretty good at lifts, but even there I wouldn't even be a contender outside of the small world of MJ, to be honest.

    The funny thing is that because they've either been taught by or at least know how good David/Lily really are, the main competing couples are actually pretty humble. Because we all know that David and Lily could turn up on the day of the comp, practice for an hour or so, then when it comes to the actual comp do one aerial (lasting over a minute or so with transitions between 1 handed lifts), and blow everyone else off the floor.

    Really looking forward to seeing a showcase or something from you to see what all the fuss is about. Any clips on youtube or anything
    Avatar is the best you're gonna get, I'm afraid. (Yes, I'm chicken).

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    For instance I'm pretty sure it is possible to do a swan dive without holding your partner (I don't know how difficult it would be, but at worst case you could start with a 7 foot base and a 4 foot 6 top, and even at full extension she's not going to hit the floor). But it would be pretty stupid to give it out as general advice just because it might be possible for some couple somewhere.

    {and some other stuff}
    Will have a look in to that and let you know my findings .


    I agree that with aerials things can go wrong and is a darker subject matter for advice etc than standard MJ moves.

    I would never want to give advice on knife throwing as I have never done it. If however I have thrown a few knives, I would feel comfortable in telling people and advising them in where it went wrong for me so they could learn from my mistakes.

    Same with aerials, only less police involvment and funerals.

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    * on a seperate thought, most of the winning Double Trouble routine was aerials. Does this mean my aerials opining carrys some weight now?
    I know this was tongue in cheek, but your own argument applies: I'd have to see the video. (To be honest, the photos I've seen of your routine don't impress me. But photos can be very unflattering, and it's really hard to take good photos of freestyle aerials).

    But I'm really only replying because I wanted to post this link to some really cool double trouble aerials...


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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    I'm sorry Gus, but this has got to be the 'funniest' thing you have written - all these spelling mistakes in just one post...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post

    There will alwys be excpstions to teh rules ...

    Amir & Kate with Jamgo...

    BUT, thats not what we are talikng about.

    In a slightly different wasy, on the dnace scene. I've lost track of the number of 'copy cat' instriuctors...

    At least they all jave dance/muisc knowledge and at least what they would try to show you had a firm basis.

    Sure, there are alwys peolle coming up who from natural ability or experience elsewhere in the dnace world, can contribute ...

    Take AMoir as an example. HJe will openly amdit that when he started, there were 'areas for improvement'.
    Amoir and Kate dnacing a jave fusion called Jamgo. The peolle amdit they are the best instriuctors because of their muisc knowledge but there will alwys be excpstions to teh rules ...

    Have you got a faulty keyboard or some kind of special numpty glasses goin on or what??

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    I'm sorry Gus, but this has got to be the 'funniest' thing you have written - the spelling mistakes are just classic.



    Amoir and Kate dnacing a jave fusion called Jamgo. The peolle amdit they are the best instriuctors because of their muisc knowledge but there will alwys be excpstions to teh rules ...

    Have you got a faulty keyboard or some kind of special numpty glasses goin on or what??
    I've bhen givenn im tyyping lessonns.

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    I've bhen givenn im tyyping lessonns.


    It's like a west country accent in print.

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post


    It's like a west country accent in print.

    Don't, everyone up here looks at me as if I have the strange voice.

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    My advice to woodface is to stop posting in the way he does on the Forum if he wants the respect of the members of the Forum.
    Although WF knows I am ignoring him, I find through the quote by Andy that he is actually addressing posts to me.

    What I'm gonna say is pretty simple: when people first post on this forum, as far as I am concerned they have some basic level of respect, i.e. fellow dance addict and potential forum friend. From then on, if they consistently demonstrate insensible posting behaviour, they go into the 'consistent insensible' box, aka the moron's box.
    WF has been remarkably consistent in being insensible, therefore is deeply buried in the aforementioned box. Now it'd take some pretty serious and sustained sensible behaviour for me to consider un-buring him and putting him in a more 'friendly' box, shall we say.
    He might be a nice chap in real life, I don't know the only thing I can base my opinion on are his posts on the forum. And those lead me to believe that he and I wouldn't have a great load of shared interests.

    Because you ask for it WF, I'll un-ignore you for a while. You want respect, earn it.

    If that's important to you, then I suggest you stop trolling, and post sensibly.
    If not, then keep going: you post in your infamous provocative moronic style, and I reply accordingly. You enjoy creating trouble, and I am playing your game (well, when I'm not ignoring you). So what exactly are you complaining about?

    I think you are the only person on this forum with whom I am not looking forward to dancing. It has to be said, it's a first.
    I trust that answers your PM as well.

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post

    {some stuff}
    I think you are the only person on this forum with whom I am not looking forward to dancing. It has to be said, it's a first.
    I trust that answers your PM as well.

    Part of the problem Caro, is the way you read my posts. Read them twice if it helps. I admit sometimes things don't come out quite how I expected them too when I re-read back a day or so after posting but that is the nature of written comunication.

    You have got to stop listining to those who delib try to put me in a bad light too. Re read some of the posts that you have taken ommerage to and work out why you dont like them. Put them in a list as a pm if you want and we can take it from there.

    I don't ask that you un-ignore me. Feel free to do what you want. ASFIAK im only on your ingore list. Not going to cry over it.

    Assume it means I will get a few dances from you at Southport?

    I actually have a high expectancy for the standard of your dancing based on what I have heard from other forumites. Just hope you don't expect too much back.

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    Part of the problem Caro, is the way you read my posts. Read them twice if it helps. I admit sometimes things don't come out quite how I expected them too when I re-read back a day or so after posting but that is the nature of written comunication.
    I admit English is not my native language, but I think my understanding of it is fairly ok. As somebody else suggested, if a lot of people don't seem to understand the content/tone of your posts, may be YOU want to rethink about the way you communicate.

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    Re read some of the posts that you have taken ommerage to and work out why you dont like them. Put them in a list as a pm if you want and we can take it from there.
    euh, no thanks. Why would I want to put myself through posts, that I thought were idiotic, twice?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    I don't ask that you un-ignore me. Feel free to do what you want. ASFIAK im only on your ingore list. Not going to cry over it.
    You're addressing some posts to me, and sending me (a) PM, none of which I can see if I have you on ignore. So what does it call for?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    Assume it means I will get a few dances from you at Southport?
    Which part of 'I am not looking forward to dancing with you do you not understand exactly?'

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    I actually have a high expectancy for the standard of your dancing based on what I have heard from other forumites. Just hope you don't expect too much back.
    I suspect you and I don't enjoy the same things from our dancing, therefore I'd be surprised you'd enjoy dancing with me.

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