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Thread: Does experience matter?

  1. #21
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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    There has always got to be room for all to voice their opinion, but if someone is new to the game are they likely to not recognise the wise words of the Oracle and instead be persuaded by comments by any miscellaneous numpty?
    Everyone is entitled to their opinion regardless of their dance experience. Purely saying that a newbies opinion carries no weight is insulting. Sure the more experience you have the more advise you may be able to give. The longer you have had to try out your beliefs, to back up your opinion. There is no argument here. The argument I have is as a newbie my opinion is not invalid. It may not be as weighted as many but this does not make it invalid. It is only an opinion after all. I'm not making anything I think a rule or saying it is the one and only way to do things.

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    No experiance doesn't matter but skill does.

    Advice by it's very nature is something that can either be taken on board or ignored, but it is always something that should be considered, no matter who the advice comes from.
    Nobody is being forced to listen to anybody's advice and take it on board. Couldn't have said this better myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    Would you take Double Trouble advice from me or consider my advice valid on the subject?
    Yes I would. You obviously know what you are talking about and have the (huge) trophy to back this up. However this wouldn't mean that I would accept everything that you said on the subject. I would also listen to the advice of somebody who didn't have your merit. All areas of advice would be considered.

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    Not at all. For 2 obvious examples, I think that Tom and Vicky are amazing dancers, and nice, unassuming people, who I could definitely learn stuff from.
    Them and 10,000 other dancers

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    I think that Jamie is a fantastic talent. He picks things up amazingly quickly, and I'm sure that given another few months, will be outstripping a lot of the areas that I'd consider myself to be good in.
    That happened ages ago. Jamie was prob still in the beginners classes when he passed you.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    On the other hand, there are plenty of examples of 'new kids', whose talent doesn't come anywhere near the level that they think that it does, and who I wouldn't want to listen to in the main...
    Maybe you should stop being so anti them and view them for what and who they are not how you think they are in your head. Watching your flash moves class from Storm. Can give you a few more for next time if you want to get people imagination going

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirlie Bird View Post
    Everyone is entitled to their opinion regardless of their dance experience. Purely saying that a newbies opinion carries no weight is insulting. Sure the more experience you have the more advise you may be able to give. The longer you have had to try out your beliefs, to back up your opinion. There is no argument here. The argument I have is as a newbie my opinion is not invalid. It may not be as weighted as many but this does not make it invalid. It is only an opinion after all. I'm not making anything I think a rule or saying it is the one and only way to do things.

    :.
    You are absolutely right TB but you do have to experience it to understand what they are going through and how it is feeling or what you could do to make it better.

    I can vouch that as newbies, you and stokie are one of the nicest dancers on the circuit and i would very much value your opinion on anything i did should you decide to give me one. (no pun intended) You have however, experienced it and are entitled to that opinion and as i have experienced you (well DTS has and he says your absolutely fantastic) i would respect it.

  4. #24
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirlie Bird View Post
    Everyone is entitled to their opinion regardless of their dance experience. Purely saying that a newbies opinion carries no weight is insulting. Sure the more experience you have the more advise you may be able to give. The longer you have had to try out your beliefs, to back up your opinion. There is no argument here. The argument I have is as a newbie my opinion is not invalid. It may not be as weighted as many but this does not make it invalid. It is only an opinion after all. I'm not making anything I think a rule or saying it is the one and only way to do things.
    Urrrrr I never said that someone new should have their view point ignored ... quite the opposite (if you read what I said ). When I was referring to newbies, I was saying that for them it is harder to assess whom they should listen to ... as they are less likely to know whether the person giving the advice knows what they are talking about or not. As adequately illustrated by some of the flame wars going on elsewhere in the Forum between our more 'senior members' ... length of service does not always equal 'grasp of the facts'

  5. #25
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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    Maybe you should stop being so anti them and view them for what and who they are not how you think they are in your head. Watching your flash moves class from Storm. Can give you a few more for next time if you want to get people imagination going
    Hold on there duck. Trampy may not always be in everyones dancecard but its a brave man who disses his record and ability. We may not see eye to eye but Steve has a whole string of competition succeses over the yaers (in meaningfull competitions in meaningfull events), has become a regular teacher for Ceroc (without being CTA trained?) and is an established DJ on the upper circuit. Doesn't that count for something?

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Hold on there duck. Trampy may not always be in everyones dancecard but its a brave man who disses his record and ability. We may not see eye to eye but Steve has a whole string of competition succeses over the yaers (in meaningfull competitions in meaningfull events), has become a regular teacher for Ceroc (without being CTA trained?) and is an established DJ on the upper circuit. Doesn't that count for something?
    Nigel A has alot of credentials too, but me and I know a fair amount of other people don't rate his dancing. Each to their own.

    Im sure Trampy on Form is a great dancer. Infact the first thing I done when I joint the forum was send him a PM saying that I thought so after seeing him at Camber.

    But since then, I have become a better dancer, evolved my dance style and seen bateer and better dancers on my travels.

    I have attchieved a hell of alot in the 14 odd months I have been dancing.

    Unfortunatly, in Trampys case the lack of respect is mutual. He thinks nothing of my dance ability and that I have an over inflated ego, I think the same of him. Just one of those things.

    I wouldn't say hand on heart, that im a better dancer than Trampy, though I would say it in jest like I do to Rocky and Andy McGreggor (though we all know it to actually be true ).

    I would love to hear from Trampy as to what he considers himself to be better than Jamie at because quite frankly I can't see anything other than bigging himself up.

    At least Jamie is polite, friendly and a laugh. Never been able to hold a conv with Steve.

    "Hi, im Woodface" - Holds Hand out for a shake

    "I know who you are" looks at hand, then walks off

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    Nigel A has alot of credentials too, but me and I know a fair amount of other people don't rate his dancing. Each to their own.

    Im sure Trampy on Form is a great dancer. Infact the first thing I done when I joint the forum was send him a PM saying that I thought so after seeing him at Camber.

    But since then, I have become a better dancer, evolved my dance style and seen bateer and better dancers on my travels.
    I think there is a huge difference between being a visually good dancer and being able to help others. I know a number of good dancers who will never win a competition but have real insight into how to teach and help develop dancers. Unfortutaley the converse is true and there are a plethora of good/great dancers who are teaching ... and really shouldn't. The thing is that Nigel, and to a lesser extent Trampy, have an experience and understanding that they can pass on ... and thats a very valuable thing. Like you I did well early on, placed 4th in the UK in my first Nationals (Blackpool) ... and beat Trampy in the process . Looked good on paper. What did I really know about dancing ... naff all. Five years on, I'd be embarressed to even try to compete at Intermediate level, but my knowledge and reaching have developed massively (though still not started to scratch the surface).

    So ... by all means tak eissue with Steve's attitude, he can be a complete twonk at times ... but then again so can many of us at times ... and there are usualy reasons as to why people react like that. However, do recognise that once he drops the attitude, he has much to teach ... and isn't that all part of the game .... finding those who can impart knowledge that makes us better then we currently are, be it in dance, work or life itself?

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    The point I've been trying to make about this is that all opinion is 'valid' but some opinion carries more weight than others.
    Strange, thats exactly what I believe too


    I've always found DS' views, which are the exact opposite of this viewpoint, to be bizarre.

  9. #29
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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    While somehow everybody seem to agree to some extent that everybody is entitled to express their opinion, but that the credit given to such opinions tends to depend largely on the knowledge (skills and/or experience) of the poster; and while it would be fairly entertaining to discuss if anybody really wants to take advice from WF or whom, between WF and Trampy, has got the biggest ego (and is there any other worthy contendent for the my-ego-is-bigger-than-yours comp); is there any chance we could discuss, and may be offer solutions (!), to the problem underlying this thread, i.e. how can we make sure that newbies could distinguish between advice that comes from a punter (even an experienced/skilled one) and one that comes from a well-established teacher, recognised by his/her peers as being one of the best in the field ?

    (and do I win an award for the longest sentence in history here?)

    I guess where I'm coming from is that on the strictly westies forum, there is a whole section called 'ask the pros' where you can, hmm, ask your questions to the pros, and get rapid and comprehensive answers by the best (without having to scroll through numerous posts by other punters).
    To get an idea of what a pro might post on a fairly common topic (hand connection), have a look here.

    Is that something that could be implemented on here ? Is it a good idea in the first place ?
    The pros are fairly obvious, what about the cons ? Would that reduce interaction between the (non-pros) forumites ? How would we decide who's a pro in what field and how ? (talk about bruised egos...)

    Or could we have 'special members' like Amir, David B (please come back), and others with a special tag / profile so that whenever their post on a dance thread, everybody would know who they are and what credit they should give to their answer ?

  10. #30
    Registered User spindr's Avatar
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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Experience doesn't matter per se -- being able to explain why a technique works is the key ability.

    Experience should make it easier to provide the explanation tho'

    SpinDr

  11. #31
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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    Or could we have 'special members' like Amir, David B (please come back), and others with a special tag / profile so that whenever their post on a dance thread, everybody would know who they are and what credit they should give to their answer ?
    Would be great ... but can you imagine the fight over who gets to sit on the selection board for such posts .... would make the UN look like a Scout group. AND can you imagine the fun if no-one from Ceroc(tm) was deemed good enough to sit on the panel


    OK ..... suggestions for experts by section

    Aerials: David B & Lily; David F; Andy & Rena

    Blues: Nigel & Nina; Val & Rocky

    Competition Dancing: Simon & Nicole; Phil & Yuko; Dave & Lily

    Dance technique: Dave & Lily; Amir; Roger Chin; Simon & Nicole

    Any others?

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    OK ..... suggestions for experts by section

    Aerials: David B & Lily; David F; Andy & Rena

    Blues: Nigel & Nina; Val & Rocky

    Competition Dancing: Simon & Nicole; Phil & Yuko; Dave & Lily

    Dance technique: Dave & Lily; Amir; Roger Chin; Simon & Nicole

    Any others?
    Well the obvious glaring exception of Woodface, the current UK double trouble champ, that seems like a pretty solid list. Is this a first; something we actually agree on Gus

  13. #33
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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    At least Jamie is polite, friendly and a laugh. Never been able to hold a conv with Steve.

    "Hi, im Woodface" - Holds Hand out for a shake

    "I know who you are" looks at hand, then walks off
    Actually, that WAS the polite and friendly response.

    To those people I like, I can be polite, friendly and a laugh. To those people I don't, why would I pretend? Nothing worse than a hypocrite.

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    Actually, that WAS the polite and friendly response.

    To those people I like, I can be polite, friendly and a laugh. To those people I don't, why would I pretend? Nothing worse than a hypocrite.

    Because as has been said to you (and you said this yourself) im diffrent off the forum. The forum is abit of pantomime. Everyone gets that. Look at how I rip at Rocky and Andy. They know it's all a laugh and the give it back. Seems the only people who don't realise that is you and Caro. Shame.

    I only took a dislike of you after we met. No need for rudeness at all but hey, at lest I know I was polite. Even at the champs I made a note of asking how you were doing and things, being polite and freindly as I am to most people.

    I even tried chatting to you at Chill but again was just met with sarcasam.

    Sad thing is Trampy, you may have been around for x amount of years and may have won x amount of comps in your time and travelled the world dancing but someone in your position who ob gets respect from some of the forumites, should be encoraging us 'new kids' (esp with your teaching creds) and not acting like the big 'I am' and lamblasting them.

    Anyway Tramps, thats the last im prob going to say on the subject. Most people know who has the attitude in real life.

    on a seperate note Caro, ask Fletch, witty, DT, DTS, Trouble, Jamie, Caz, Minnie, Rocky, Robd, Spikey Steve,Cruella,onker, Stokie,Barmpot, Diana S Andy McGreg etc etc etc if I have an ego. They will all (hopefully tell you) im pretty humble in real life. The forum is just a laugh and all those people know that. Hopefully at Southport I will be able to add you to that list.

  15. #35
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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    No experiance doesn't matter but skill does.
    ...
    Skill matters positively in that a sufficient level of skill is needed.

    However, an exceptional level of skill the most talented may have probably still matters, but in a negative way.


    The very talented pick up things easily and are able to learn in a way that the majority are less likely to follow.

    So what they say should be taken with a pinch of salt.


    Sometimes the particular talented do end up as good teachers, but that is probably more to do with experience - because they are experienced they've picked up a lot of teaching work. With lots experience of teaching they may become good.

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    On the other hand, there are plenty of examples of 'new kids', whose talent doesn't come anywhere near the level that they think that it does, and who I wouldn't want to listen to in the main...
    Yeah, but that won't stop me trying to tell you how to dance anyway Trampy

    I certainly value the words of wisdom from our established gurus here such as DavidB and LilyB, DavidF, Amir, Rocky and a bunch of others I don't know myself. Experience makes a difference, and the phrase ''old age and experience will beat youthful enthusiasm every time'' wasn't invented for nothing.

    The flip side is that the word of experience can be taken dogmatically, and anyone who challenges their view (regardless of objective consideration of their claims) can be burned down in the flames of religious fervor and forever labeled a heretic or pariah......

    OK, so it isn't *that* bad, but there is a tendency for many to simply reject idea's out of hand without considering them. Often then appealing to the authority that told them what to think in the first place as proof of their position. I think G. Patton said something along the lines ''if everyone is thinking the same thing then nobody's thinking''. Dissent is important for re-evaluation and improvement.

    I agree with Gus in that it's very hard for a newbie to determine the difference between sound advice and sketchy advice if you consider every post as being equally valuable. The most powerful tool I have found to date to do this in any forum and on any topic is this:

    Correct grammar implies careful and educated thought

    It's that simple. Spell checkers can make spelling a poor indicator (and I should know....my spelling is poor on a good day). Think of all the people who you admire and who's opinion you respect on this forum or on any other and I can almost guarantee that you'll find the same. There are the occasional spanner in the works but they are very much the exception.

    Perhaps the forum should have a ranking system based on grammar? DavidJames, how are you for policing that?

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    on a seperate note Caro, ask Fletch, witty, DT, DTS, Trouble, Jamie, Caz, Minnie, Rocky, Robd, Spikey Steve,Cruella,onker, Stokie,Barmpot, Diana S Andy McGreg etc etc etc if I have an ego. They will all (hopefully tell you) im pretty humble in real life. The forum is just a laugh and all those people know that. Hopefully at Southport I will be able to add you to that list.
    I have met woodface in real life. I can't say that I know him well, but he seems like a pleasant guy. Does woodface in real-life have and ego? Yes he does, but no more than any of us show-off dancers. However, I find his Forum persona irritating for so, so many reasons. My advice to woodface is to stop posting in the way he does on the Forum if he wants the respect of the members of the Forum.

    Of course, if woodface want to continue to irritate us on here there's nothing we can do to stop him

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post

    Perhaps the forum should have a ranking system based on grammar? DavidJames, how are you for policing that?

    well I would be a the bottom of that one, but then again you carn't be the best at everything can you

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by fletch View Post
    well I would be a the bottom of that one, but then again you carn't be the best at everything can you
    You'll just have to be happy being the best at everything else

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Experience, by definition, will also include an awareness of things that don't work (and sometimes an insight into why they don't work) and this can be as useful as being able to highlight things that do work.

    In general I will give greater weight to the opinion of someone who has achieved (whether through teaching pedigree/competition success/positive feedback from those I trust) in the relevant field (not just dance) than those who have not (or maybe who have yet to do so) but ultimately it's my decision as to what advice to take on board. I do agree that sometimes though the opinions of certain individuals are taken as sacred and any kind of questioning is shot down with 'Don't you know who you are disagreeing with??' accusations rather than reasoned argument. Similarly, when seeking to strengthen the value of their own opinions some forumites will announce that 'famous name X also believes this/teaches this/says this so I must be right'.

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