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Thread: Does experience matter?

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Does experience matter?

    Prompted by the mutual b1tch-slapping that Rocky/DS/Andy have been enjoying elsewhere .....

    Is it important to know the experience / expertise of the person making the post? Take an example of ... 'What is Blues about'. Would all comments be welcome or should people look for comments from the likes of Nigel, Rocky etc ... or can anyone make comments like, "its just slow Ceroc" . A common area of comment is aerials. Statements were made with absolute authority by people who have just joined the dance scene ... at complete variance to the 'known' experts such as DavidB, Dave F etc.

    There has always got to be room for all to voice their opinion, but if someone is new to the game are they likely to not recognise the wise words of the Oracle and instead be persuaded by comments by any miscellaneous numpty?

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    No experiance doesn't matter but skill does.


    Someone might come on to the dance scean and give really good valid advice on aerials that might contradict something someone more experianced says. It wont make them wrong, It could just be the advice that works for them.

    Advice by it's very nature is something that can either be taken on board or ignored, but it is always something that should be considered, no matter who the advice comes from.

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    No experiance doesn't matter but skill does.
    Could I counter by saying that maybe its knowledge that matters. I've seen some great dancers but they don't know 'how' they do what they do and/or are unable to articulate to other how to improve.

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    Advice by it's very nature is something that can either be taken on board or ignored, but it is always something that should be considered, no matter who the advice comes from.
    But isn't the fundamental point that as a newbie you may not be able to discerne the valid form the invalid comments? Case in point, when I started volleyball one of our main exercises was to do deep bunny hops round the gym. Later I was told how dangerous this was for the knees

    "Oh dear Lord, spare us from those that speak yet do not know."

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Maybe your right, it prob is knowledge rather than skill.

    But then how do you know who has the best knowledge if it's not related to skill or experiance?

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    But then how do you know who has the best knowledge if it's not related to skill or experiance?
    Dunno. Thats the problem. If you only accept the word of the accepted greats ... then any 'new kids on the block' would find it hard to get listened to.

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    No experiance doesn't matter but skill does.

    Someone might come on to the dance scean and give really good valid advice on aerials that might contradict something someone more experianced says. It wont make them wrong, It could just be the advice that works for them.

    Advice by it's very nature is something that can either be taken on board or ignored, but it is always something that should be considered, no matter who the advice comes from.
    Oh god. Here we go again! Of course, I know that you're saying it just to wind people up, but unfortunately, it happens, and it's not good to be suggesting it.

    This is SO not true. At least, it has the potential to be not true. And has the potential to be very dangerous.

    Just because something works for one couple does NOT make it "really good valid" advice. Many people I've seen doing aerials substitute sheer brute strength for good technique. And while that may serve them, it's not good advice for other people.

    Aerials are inherently dangerous. That's why most people who learn to do them well, learn from other, more experienced people. There are only a few people on the MJ scene who I would recommend to anyone wanting to learn aerials - Andy & Rena, David & Lily, and Dave F & Bryony, if they ever started teaching them, maybe a couple of others.

    Any "advice" that contradicts anything any of these people say, is just stupid. And may well be dangerous.

    Feel free to tell me now how wrong I am, Woodface.

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Dunno. Thats the problem. If you only accept the word of the accepted greats ... then any 'new kids on the block' would find it hard to get listened to.
    I think that it would depend on who the 'new kids on the block' were. Where they'd learnt. Whether or not the 'old kids on the block' thought that they were capable.

    It would also probably depend on their circumstances. If they turned up after dancing for a limited time, and proceeded to tell everyone how wonderful they were, and give blatantly bad advice, then no, experienced dancers wouldn't listen to them, and would probably criticise them....

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    I think that it would depend on who the 'new kids on the block' were. Where they'd learnt. Whether or not the 'old kids on the block' thought that they were capable.

    It would also probably depend on their circumstances. If they turned up after dancing for a limited time, and proceeded to tell everyone how wonderful they were, and give blatantly bad advice, then no, experienced dancers wouldn't listen to them, and would probably criticise them....
    But then again some people hate 'new kids' don't they trampy.

    Basicly what your saying is people should only take advice from people who you belive know best.

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Ok my Fish eating friend....

    DF gave me some great advice about my hand grip when doing a swan. When I can move again, Im going to give things ago with the way DF said (locking arms rather than hands). It might not work for me (though it prob will). I would have taken his advice and tried.

    Another forumite who has only been dancing a few months pm'd me and said that the swan looks nice if you hold the girl by the shoulders. Again, im happy to give it ago this way (the way it was taught to me once) and it might or might not work.

    Both are valid bits of advice from two diffrent people at different experiance levels. Neither of them are wrong but both contradict what the other is saying.

    I will try both ways and see what works for me.

    If either of them had said "Just let go of the lady and let her bounce up off her head", then that advice would be dangerous and bad no matter who it came from and I would use my judgment in recognising that.



    Would you take Double Trouble advice from me or consider my advice valid on the subject?

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    I went into an apprenticeship when I left school. It consisted of 5 years of 6 month stints in various departments. My first inkling that my masters might not be perfect was two almost identical office blocks were slightly different sizes because the conversion from metric to imperial had been done differently for each block.
    Engineering Dept. - A diagram of a footstool could not possibly be right, it did not match Pythagorus's theorem. I was told to make it to prove it. The computer memory dept - a PhD was writing a scientific paper on electronic temperature control down to 1/100 of a degree. His test equipment was a cardboard box with an ordinary mercury thermometer sticking out of it. He did his wiring according to the resistor colour code. Black (0) 0 volts, Green (conventionally earth) =500 volts. . Trigger tube dept. I asked if I could play with a non-working testing machine. I got it working. My boss was ecstatic, and wanted to use it. I told him it was no use, because it relied on the properties of the failing tubes. I said harsh words about the inventor. I looked at my boss's face ....
    We had a two high power research teams in. One to find out why some tubes tested good later failed when retested. The other was trying to determine if gas contamination was causing failure, which would be shown by an exponential failure rate. I took the data from the testing N times team and analysed it to find an exponential failure rate of 10% every 100 hours.My boss scoffed at my work, saying the average life of 1000 hours. I was moved on before I could get back to him with the news that 10% per 100 hours is an average life of 1000 hours.
    The valve pass rate had just dropped to 80% when I joined that dept.. My next boss twiddled knobs and lowered it to 75%.. then 70%. He called in a superior. Through the apprentice grapevine I found out that the original drop was due to cathode contamination, and told him. He ignored me. The pass rate dropped to 50%. They called in heavier and heavier guns. The last run before I quit had a pass rate of 10%

    I have acquired a sceptical view of the unquestioned value of "experience", paradoxically, based upon my experience.

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Dunno. Thats the problem. If you only accept the word of the accepted greats ... then any 'new kids on the block' would find it hard to get listened to.
    yeah, but those of us, who have only joined fairly recently, don't know who the greats are!!!
    And does it really matter? Yes, it was said already, that it is a nature of advice - you either take it, or spit at it. Don't we all?
    Sometimes you are taught a move and don't feel right however much the teacher (a "great" even, perhaps?) is trying to explain and show it to you. And then another partner comes along for a dance and gives a bit of advice - and despite the "great"'s insistence that it should have been done "this" way, you find it much easier to do it slightly differently - sometimes the beginners find the shortcuts that make more experienced dancers look unnecessarily fanciful and complicated. We can all, I presume, realise, when the advice is dangerous. But otherwise, try it, see if it works for you -and then either use it or ditch it!

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Prompted by the mutual b1tch-slapping that Rocky/DS/Andy have been enjoying elsewhere .....

    Is it important to know the experience / expertise of the person making the post? Take an example of ... 'What is Blues about'. Would all comments be welcome or should people look for comments from the likes of Nigel, Rocky etc ... or can anyone make comments like, "its just slow Ceroc" .
    The point I've been trying to make about this is that all opinion is 'valid' but some opinion carries more weight than others.

    So in your example, I would consider an explanation about Blues musicality and technique from Nigel to have more value than an explanation from someone who has never taught a Blues dance class in their life.

    I've always found DS' views, which are the exact opposite of this viewpoint, to be bizarre.

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    The point I've been trying to make about this is that all opinion is 'valid' but some opinion carries more weight than others.

    So in your example, I would consider an explanation about Blues musicality and technique from Nigel to have more value than an explanation from someone who has never taught a Blues dance class in their life.

    I've always found DS' views, which are the exact opposite of this viewpoint, to be bizarre.

    It also comes down to how much you like that persons style etc.

    I would rather take advice about a move from Jamie, Central Alex or the Troubles than I would Nigel purley because I don't have much admaration for him or the way he dances and his style.

    For example, if he said "kick your legs out in a 1940's swing fashion on everysong you hear" then I wouldn't listen to that advice.

    But if he came up to me and said "Thats good but try it this way" it might be helpful or I might like that new way of doing it.


    I guess advice is only usefull if you use it, no matter who it comes from.

    We all advise each other whether we know it or not. We all say to people "I like the way you done that" or "That was a brilliant dance" which in itself is a form of advice.

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Experience does matter to a certain extent because you need to experience something to really understand how it works IMO.

    I may watch soembody do aerials and think to myself, well that didn't look good but i would not try and advise them how to make it look better because i wouldn't know how too. I might be dancing with somebody who was yanking me about too much, i would advise that person of a better way to do it and try to show them its not needed as i lead and would know how they could do this and improve it.

    Experience does matter in most things in life. Take the first time you have sex. I bet not one single person on this forum could remember it as a fantastic time. infact quite the opposite but thats another story.
    Last edited by Trouble; 20th-May-2007 at 04:59 PM.

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    Take the first time you have sex. I bet not one singe person on this forum could remember it as a fantastic time. infact quite the opposite but thats another story.
    I could't remember it as a fantastic time, but I bet she could

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    In 1981, a 61 year old potato farmer called Cliff Young entered the Sydney to Melbourne ultra distance race - a race where performances are measured in days rather than hours and minutes.

    Conventional wisdom suggested that participants ran like marathon runners, for 18 hours, then slept for 6 hours. Cliff Young showed up wearing overalls and gumboots, and he didn't even know that you were allowed to sleep! He denied himself sleep and shuffled very very slowly along the whole course without stopping. He beat some of the worlds greatest ultra distance runners by days! Cliff Young's way of running is now the accepted method for running ultra distance races....

    The point is, Young did not have conventional beliefs, so he was not restricted by them. This allowed him to set a new bar.

    In 1968 American Dick Fosbury astonished the athletics world with his new 'back float' technique in winning the Mexico City Olympic High Jump competition. This is now the accepted technique for 99% of the Worlds top high jumpers.

    Where there is a mismatch between our beliefs and our results, our thinking and behaviour often changes so as to make our results consistant with our beliefs.

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Is it important to know the experience / expertise of the person making the post? Take an example of ... 'What is Blues about'. Would all comments be welcome or should people look for comments from the likes of Nigel, Rocky etc ... or can anyone make comments like, "its just slow Ceroc"
    Ummm I'm not sure that you have really grasped the fundamental concept of a public forum Gus. Anyone can say anything they like (within the bounds of the forum's rules).

    Dancing is not an exact science, so there will usually be more ways of doing and viewing things. Sometimes a new person will bring fresh ideas and new ways of looking at old problems/methods. If it were not for new ideas pushing things forward we would still be listening to Rave... no I mean Punk.... no I mean Disco.... no I mean Rock 'n Roll... no I mean Charleston.... no I mean Mozart.... no I mean.... It's called evolution Gus. That evolution doesn't have to invalidate the huge amount of already accepted expertise from knowledgeable sources. However, I think it is dangerous to imbue messianic status to any dancer - especially one's self
    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    There has always got to be room for all to voice their opinion, but if someone is new to the game are they likely to not recognise the wise words of the Oracle and instead be persuaded by comments by any miscellaneous numpty?
    Just being around something for a long time does not always make someone an expert either. A dancer may have been on the scene for many years and still not have the first clue about musicality for example Gus. Things are not always as straight forward as they seem either. Take the word 'teacher' for example. Is the advice of an out of practice ex-teacher more or less valid that the advice of current teacher who has their finger on the pulse of current teaching methods and ideas? Even though they may both be bandying the word about to claim their own oracle status.

    In life you tend to get what you pay for; that includes free advice on the Internet. Buyer beware

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    Ummm I'm not sure that you have really grasped the fundamental concept of a public forum Gus. Anyone can say anything they like (within the bounds of the forum's rules).
    Just being around something for a long time does not always make someone an expert either. A dancer may have been on the scene for many years and still not have the first clue about musicality for example Gus. Things are not always as straight forward as they seem either. Take the word 'teacher' for example. Is the advice of an out of practice ex-teacher more or less valid that the advice of current teacher who has their finger on the pulse of current teaching methods and ideas? Even though they may both be bandying the word about to claim their own oracle status.
    I was wondering how long before some thing like this would happen.

    OK ... lets get a few things right first of all. There will alwys be excpstions to teh rules ... but for gods sake lets droip all these wild cases of 'evolution'. We can alwys come up with some far more pertinent examples. Look at Nigel introducing Blues, Dan bringing in hip-hop fucion, Amir & Kate with Jamgo. Yes, these were all revolutionary changes in MJ ... BUT, thats not what we are talikng about.

    I base my assertion on my day job, change management. For the last 20 yaers I've had to deal with numpties who know jack-sh1t 'changing' things: running projects; bringing in new technology; changing working practices WITHOUT having the real knowledge/expertise to make it work. This is also evident, in a slightly different wasy, on the dnace scene. I've lost track of the number of 'copy cat' instriuctors who have got on the aerials, Blues, tango-fusion band wagons and tried to make out that they are competent to teach ... when experienced dancers can quite clearly see that they are not. If I had a pound for everytime I've had to stop some ego-monster trying to teach beginners a drop or lift I'd have at least £37!

    Even in MJ, there is rarely a right way. The way thet David B, Amir, Mike Ellard etc would teach you to dnace will all be different. The trick is to take what works for you. BUT, at least they all jave dance/muisc knowledge and at least what they would try to show you had a firm basis. Sure, there are alwys peolle coming up who from natural ability or experience elsewhere in the dnace world, can contribute ... but these numbers are dwarfed by the 'I've done 6 months of Ceroc and so now I can teach' bridage.

    Ex-teacher I may be .... but my day job is based around understanding what needs to be taught, then conveying that to people at the appropriate level by the appropraite method. Even teachers have to learn to teach. Take AMoir as an example. HJe will openly amdit that when he started, there were 'areas for improvement'. His teaching approach now is significantly better than what it was ... and he continues to improve .

    I'm not attacking 'unknown' dancers by any means. What I am VERY cautious of is taking an idea that some new dancers are gifted and have revolutionary ideas ... and then extrapolating that idea so that EVERYONE is talking sense ... even when it counters the accepted logic of MJ.

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    For all the nice things we can say about the hidden wisdom in dancing advice given by non-expert dancers (like me!) it must be admitted that they are mostly just reformulations, and sometimes chinese-whisper reformulations, of things said by experts.

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    But then again some people hate 'new kids' don't they trampy.

    Basicly what your saying is people should only take advice from people who you belive know best.
    Not at all. For 2 obvious examples, I think that Tom and Vicky are amazing dancers, and nice, unassuming people, who I could definitely learn stuff from.

    I think that Jamie is a fantastic talent. He picks things up amazingly quickly, and I'm sure that given another few months, will be outstripping a lot of the areas that I'd consider myself to be good in (though, I wouldn't tell him that, his head is already big enough! ).

    On the other hand, there are plenty of examples of 'new kids', whose talent doesn't come anywhere near the level that they think that it does, and who I wouldn't want to listen to in the main...

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