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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Does experience matter?

    Prompted by the mutual b1tch-slapping that Rocky/DS/Andy have been enjoying elsewhere .....

    Is it important to know the experience / expertise of the person making the post? Take an example of ... 'What is Blues about'. Would all comments be welcome or should people look for comments from the likes of Nigel, Rocky etc ... or can anyone make comments like, "its just slow Ceroc" . A common area of comment is aerials. Statements were made with absolute authority by people who have just joined the dance scene ... at complete variance to the 'known' experts such as DavidB, Dave F etc.

    There has always got to be room for all to voice their opinion, but if someone is new to the game are they likely to not recognise the wise words of the Oracle and instead be persuaded by comments by any miscellaneous numpty?

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    No experiance doesn't matter but skill does.


    Someone might come on to the dance scean and give really good valid advice on aerials that might contradict something someone more experianced says. It wont make them wrong, It could just be the advice that works for them.

    Advice by it's very nature is something that can either be taken on board or ignored, but it is always something that should be considered, no matter who the advice comes from.

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    No experiance doesn't matter but skill does.
    Could I counter by saying that maybe its knowledge that matters. I've seen some great dancers but they don't know 'how' they do what they do and/or are unable to articulate to other how to improve.

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    Advice by it's very nature is something that can either be taken on board or ignored, but it is always something that should be considered, no matter who the advice comes from.
    But isn't the fundamental point that as a newbie you may not be able to discerne the valid form the invalid comments? Case in point, when I started volleyball one of our main exercises was to do deep bunny hops round the gym. Later I was told how dangerous this was for the knees

    "Oh dear Lord, spare us from those that speak yet do not know."

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Maybe your right, it prob is knowledge rather than skill.

    But then how do you know who has the best knowledge if it's not related to skill or experiance?

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    But then how do you know who has the best knowledge if it's not related to skill or experiance?
    Dunno. Thats the problem. If you only accept the word of the accepted greats ... then any 'new kids on the block' would find it hard to get listened to.

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Dunno. Thats the problem. If you only accept the word of the accepted greats ... then any 'new kids on the block' would find it hard to get listened to.
    I think that it would depend on who the 'new kids on the block' were. Where they'd learnt. Whether or not the 'old kids on the block' thought that they were capable.

    It would also probably depend on their circumstances. If they turned up after dancing for a limited time, and proceeded to tell everyone how wonderful they were, and give blatantly bad advice, then no, experienced dancers wouldn't listen to them, and would probably criticise them....

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    Registered User nebula's Avatar
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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Dunno. Thats the problem. If you only accept the word of the accepted greats ... then any 'new kids on the block' would find it hard to get listened to.
    yeah, but those of us, who have only joined fairly recently, don't know who the greats are!!!
    And does it really matter? Yes, it was said already, that it is a nature of advice - you either take it, or spit at it. Don't we all?
    Sometimes you are taught a move and don't feel right however much the teacher (a "great" even, perhaps?) is trying to explain and show it to you. And then another partner comes along for a dance and gives a bit of advice - and despite the "great"'s insistence that it should have been done "this" way, you find it much easier to do it slightly differently - sometimes the beginners find the shortcuts that make more experienced dancers look unnecessarily fanciful and complicated. We can all, I presume, realise, when the advice is dangerous. But otherwise, try it, see if it works for you -and then either use it or ditch it!

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    No experiance doesn't matter but skill does.

    Someone might come on to the dance scean and give really good valid advice on aerials that might contradict something someone more experianced says. It wont make them wrong, It could just be the advice that works for them.

    Advice by it's very nature is something that can either be taken on board or ignored, but it is always something that should be considered, no matter who the advice comes from.
    Oh god. Here we go again! Of course, I know that you're saying it just to wind people up, but unfortunately, it happens, and it's not good to be suggesting it.

    This is SO not true. At least, it has the potential to be not true. And has the potential to be very dangerous.

    Just because something works for one couple does NOT make it "really good valid" advice. Many people I've seen doing aerials substitute sheer brute strength for good technique. And while that may serve them, it's not good advice for other people.

    Aerials are inherently dangerous. That's why most people who learn to do them well, learn from other, more experienced people. There are only a few people on the MJ scene who I would recommend to anyone wanting to learn aerials - Andy & Rena, David & Lily, and Dave F & Bryony, if they ever started teaching them, maybe a couple of others.

    Any "advice" that contradicts anything any of these people say, is just stupid. And may well be dangerous.

    Feel free to tell me now how wrong I am, Woodface.

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    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    No experiance doesn't matter but skill does.
    ...
    Skill matters positively in that a sufficient level of skill is needed.

    However, an exceptional level of skill the most talented may have probably still matters, but in a negative way.


    The very talented pick up things easily and are able to learn in a way that the majority are less likely to follow.

    So what they say should be taken with a pinch of salt.


    Sometimes the particular talented do end up as good teachers, but that is probably more to do with experience - because they are experienced they've picked up a lot of teaching work. With lots experience of teaching they may become good.

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Prompted by the mutual b1tch-slapping that Rocky/DS/Andy have been enjoying elsewhere .....

    Is it important to know the experience / expertise of the person making the post? Take an example of ... 'What is Blues about'. Would all comments be welcome or should people look for comments from the likes of Nigel, Rocky etc ... or can anyone make comments like, "its just slow Ceroc" .
    The point I've been trying to make about this is that all opinion is 'valid' but some opinion carries more weight than others.

    So in your example, I would consider an explanation about Blues musicality and technique from Nigel to have more value than an explanation from someone who has never taught a Blues dance class in their life.

    I've always found DS' views, which are the exact opposite of this viewpoint, to be bizarre.

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    The point I've been trying to make about this is that all opinion is 'valid' but some opinion carries more weight than others.

    So in your example, I would consider an explanation about Blues musicality and technique from Nigel to have more value than an explanation from someone who has never taught a Blues dance class in their life.

    I've always found DS' views, which are the exact opposite of this viewpoint, to be bizarre.

    It also comes down to how much you like that persons style etc.

    I would rather take advice about a move from Jamie, Central Alex or the Troubles than I would Nigel purley because I don't have much admaration for him or the way he dances and his style.

    For example, if he said "kick your legs out in a 1940's swing fashion on everysong you hear" then I wouldn't listen to that advice.

    But if he came up to me and said "Thats good but try it this way" it might be helpful or I might like that new way of doing it.


    I guess advice is only usefull if you use it, no matter who it comes from.

    We all advise each other whether we know it or not. We all say to people "I like the way you done that" or "That was a brilliant dance" which in itself is a form of advice.

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Experience does matter to a certain extent because you need to experience something to really understand how it works IMO.

    I may watch soembody do aerials and think to myself, well that didn't look good but i would not try and advise them how to make it look better because i wouldn't know how too. I might be dancing with somebody who was yanking me about too much, i would advise that person of a better way to do it and try to show them its not needed as i lead and would know how they could do this and improve it.

    Experience does matter in most things in life. Take the first time you have sex. I bet not one single person on this forum could remember it as a fantastic time. infact quite the opposite but thats another story.
    Last edited by Trouble; 20th-May-2007 at 04:59 PM.

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    Take the first time you have sex. I bet not one singe person on this forum could remember it as a fantastic time. infact quite the opposite but thats another story.
    I could't remember it as a fantastic time, but I bet she could

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    In 1981, a 61 year old potato farmer called Cliff Young entered the Sydney to Melbourne ultra distance race - a race where performances are measured in days rather than hours and minutes.

    Conventional wisdom suggested that participants ran like marathon runners, for 18 hours, then slept for 6 hours. Cliff Young showed up wearing overalls and gumboots, and he didn't even know that you were allowed to sleep! He denied himself sleep and shuffled very very slowly along the whole course without stopping. He beat some of the worlds greatest ultra distance runners by days! Cliff Young's way of running is now the accepted method for running ultra distance races....

    The point is, Young did not have conventional beliefs, so he was not restricted by them. This allowed him to set a new bar.

    In 1968 American Dick Fosbury astonished the athletics world with his new 'back float' technique in winning the Mexico City Olympic High Jump competition. This is now the accepted technique for 99% of the Worlds top high jumpers.

    Where there is a mismatch between our beliefs and our results, our thinking and behaviour often changes so as to make our results consistant with our beliefs.

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    The point I've been trying to make about this is that all opinion is 'valid' but some opinion carries more weight than others.
    Strange, thats exactly what I believe too


    I've always found DS' views, which are the exact opposite of this viewpoint, to be bizarre.

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    While somehow everybody seem to agree to some extent that everybody is entitled to express their opinion, but that the credit given to such opinions tends to depend largely on the knowledge (skills and/or experience) of the poster; and while it would be fairly entertaining to discuss if anybody really wants to take advice from WF or whom, between WF and Trampy, has got the biggest ego (and is there any other worthy contendent for the my-ego-is-bigger-than-yours comp); is there any chance we could discuss, and may be offer solutions (!), to the problem underlying this thread, i.e. how can we make sure that newbies could distinguish between advice that comes from a punter (even an experienced/skilled one) and one that comes from a well-established teacher, recognised by his/her peers as being one of the best in the field ?

    (and do I win an award for the longest sentence in history here?)

    I guess where I'm coming from is that on the strictly westies forum, there is a whole section called 'ask the pros' where you can, hmm, ask your questions to the pros, and get rapid and comprehensive answers by the best (without having to scroll through numerous posts by other punters).
    To get an idea of what a pro might post on a fairly common topic (hand connection), have a look here.

    Is that something that could be implemented on here ? Is it a good idea in the first place ?
    The pros are fairly obvious, what about the cons ? Would that reduce interaction between the (non-pros) forumites ? How would we decide who's a pro in what field and how ? (talk about bruised egos...)

    Or could we have 'special members' like Amir, David B (please come back), and others with a special tag / profile so that whenever their post on a dance thread, everybody would know who they are and what credit they should give to their answer ?

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    Registered User spindr's Avatar
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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Experience doesn't matter per se -- being able to explain why a technique works is the key ability.

    Experience should make it easier to provide the explanation tho'

    SpinDr

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    Or could we have 'special members' like Amir, David B (please come back), and others with a special tag / profile so that whenever their post on a dance thread, everybody would know who they are and what credit they should give to their answer ?
    Would be great ... but can you imagine the fight over who gets to sit on the selection board for such posts .... would make the UN look like a Scout group. AND can you imagine the fun if no-one from Ceroc(tm) was deemed good enough to sit on the panel


    OK ..... suggestions for experts by section

    Aerials: David B & Lily; David F; Andy & Rena

    Blues: Nigel & Nina; Val & Rocky

    Competition Dancing: Simon & Nicole; Phil & Yuko; Dave & Lily

    Dance technique: Dave & Lily; Amir; Roger Chin; Simon & Nicole

    Any others?

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    OK ..... suggestions for experts by section

    Aerials: David B & Lily; David F; Andy & Rena

    Blues: Nigel & Nina; Val & Rocky

    Competition Dancing: Simon & Nicole; Phil & Yuko; Dave & Lily

    Dance technique: Dave & Lily; Amir; Roger Chin; Simon & Nicole

    Any others?
    Well the obvious glaring exception of Woodface, the current UK double trouble champ, that seems like a pretty solid list. Is this a first; something we actually agree on Gus

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    Re: Does expereince matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Is it important to know the experience / expertise of the person making the post? Take an example of ... 'What is Blues about'. Would all comments be welcome or should people look for comments from the likes of Nigel, Rocky etc ... or can anyone make comments like, "its just slow Ceroc"
    Ummm I'm not sure that you have really grasped the fundamental concept of a public forum Gus. Anyone can say anything they like (within the bounds of the forum's rules).

    Dancing is not an exact science, so there will usually be more ways of doing and viewing things. Sometimes a new person will bring fresh ideas and new ways of looking at old problems/methods. If it were not for new ideas pushing things forward we would still be listening to Rave... no I mean Punk.... no I mean Disco.... no I mean Rock 'n Roll... no I mean Charleston.... no I mean Mozart.... no I mean.... It's called evolution Gus. That evolution doesn't have to invalidate the huge amount of already accepted expertise from knowledgeable sources. However, I think it is dangerous to imbue messianic status to any dancer - especially one's self
    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    There has always got to be room for all to voice their opinion, but if someone is new to the game are they likely to not recognise the wise words of the Oracle and instead be persuaded by comments by any miscellaneous numpty?
    Just being around something for a long time does not always make someone an expert either. A dancer may have been on the scene for many years and still not have the first clue about musicality for example Gus. Things are not always as straight forward as they seem either. Take the word 'teacher' for example. Is the advice of an out of practice ex-teacher more or less valid that the advice of current teacher who has their finger on the pulse of current teaching methods and ideas? Even though they may both be bandying the word about to claim their own oracle status.

    In life you tend to get what you pay for; that includes free advice on the Internet. Buyer beware

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