View Poll Results: Which workshop level would you take?

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  • Beginner

    3 20.00%
  • Intermediate I

    3 20.00%
  • Intermediate II

    3 20.00%
  • Post-intermediate

    5 33.33%
  • Advanced

    1 6.67%
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Thread: What Weekender Workshop Level are You?

  1. #21
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    Re: What Weekender Workshop Level are You?

    From these descriptions, I don't make it into Intermediate 1 - in this scale I'm a beginner.

    A lot of emphasis seems to be on external apperance of the dance to others and what your own opinion of your dancing is - In my opinion "ability" is measured by your partners enjoyment

  2. #22
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: What Weekender Workshop Level are You?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    From these descriptions, I don't make it into Intermediate 1 - in this scale I'm a beginner.

    A lot of emphasis seems to be on external apperance of the dance to others and what your own opinion of your dancing is - In my opinion "ability" is measured by your partners enjoyment
    False modesty...

    The point of the exercise requires you to form your own opinion of your dancing – when you decide if you are capable of doing a workshop you have to do this, you don't have time to form a focus group with a sample selection of your recent partners.

    Also, I don't think the "external appearance" criteria comes in until the last two categories.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  3. #23
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    Re: What Weekender Workshop Level are You?

    While I match most if not all criteria in MH's Post-Intermediate category, I do match some critera in Advanced. I'd put myself somewhere in the middle.

  4. #24
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    Re: What Weekender Workshop Level are You?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    False modesty...
    not at all:
    Intermediate 1:
    You know a variety of simple left-handed, right-handed, and two-handed moves.
    - I tend not to stick to "moves" and kinna make it up, so I suppose that's a tic.
    You are happy dancing freestyle, - tic
    but can already tell how much better other dancers are. - I find it hard to tell if dancers are better or worse than I am: I'm normally dancing, so don't get to watch them. But I suppose I know who I would like to steal stuff from... tic
    You are very comfortable in regular beginner classes, and are starting to take intermediate classes. - tic
    You can spin well both on your own and with a partner. - no tic. I can spin, but I wouldn't say "well". Loose balance easily and can't get the orientation coming out just right.
    You can lead or follow with both hands, but one hand may feel better than the other. - no tic. I follow poorly with either hand. And there is no real differential in which hand I lead with - whichever is closest and will do what I want.
    You have danced with your local teacher and may have picked up some valuable feedback that way. - tic
    [i]You don't yank your partners,[i] - tic
    or make them feel uncomfortable, - don't know. I have made a few uncomfortable.
    and rarely fall over. - tic
    In freestyle you are aware of other dancers - tic
    and considerate towards them. - debatable. I keep stealing their space, but I do give it back
    You will add more variety to your dancing, - I don't think I can add any more varity to my dancing.
    and learn to lead or follow all kinds of movements, from double spins - tic, but can't follow them very well
    ... to precise footwork. - big no tic. I dislike precise footwork. With venom.

    Don't tic all the boxes - must be beginner.

    The point of the exercise requires you to form your own opinion of your dancing – when you decide if you are capable of doing a workshop you have to do this, you don't have time to form a focus group with a sample selection of your recent partners.
    I would look at what was being taught (& perhaps who) rather than any 'level' indicator.

    I think that the only usefull information on a workshop would be a list of prerequisites - match these, then you can do the workshop. Not a list of prerequisites for a generic level that the workshop then tries to match: you don't need that middle man.

  5. #25
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    Re: What Weekender Workshop Level are You?

    Jamie, Wuzzle, et al, feel free to select whichever category feels closest to your skill level. That's what you'd do in the real world, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    no tic. I follow poorly with either hand.
    Yeah, this was unclear. To repeat myself:

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    This meant that you can either lead with both hands (if you're a leader) or follow with both hands (if you're a follower), not that you can do both!
    Shows how much well thought out wording matters. I deliberately didn't include knowledge of the opposite role in the descriptions; I know plenty of Advanced dancers who can only dance one role, and plenty of Beginner dancers who can dance both.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    ... to precise footwork. - big no tic. I dislike precise footwork. With venom. .... Don't tic all the boxes - must be beginner.
    Well, if that's how you feel, and you'd choose to take Beginner-level workshops for those reasons, please do tick "beginner" in the poll. After all, that's the point of the exercise. We're all different.

  6. #26
    Registered User Ghost's Avatar
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    Re: What Weekender Workshop Level are You?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Jamie, Wuzzle, et al, feel free to select whichever category feels closest to your skill level. That's what you'd do in the real world, right?
    Ok assuming this sytem was incorporated coherently eg Teacher A's Int1 class isn't harder than Teacher B's Int 2 class

    I'd get a weekended dvd and look at what was taught in the different levels. I'd then try out some of the concepts / moves with friends and then freestyle. I'd ask people who know me and who have been how they found the various levels and where they thought I'd fit.

    At the weekender I'd sit in and watch a few workshops to check I'd gauged the level correctly. I'd then do a workshop one level below where I thought I was. Provided that went fine, then I'd do workshops at the level that I was at.

    (This is pretty much what I did with Jango)

  7. #27
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    Re: What Weekender Workshop Level are You?

    I just dive right in and have a go at anything, unless of course it's a different dance style I've never done, but MJ, I just have a go at anything, even if it says "only for people with 15+ years of experience" or whatever.

  8. #28
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    Re: What Weekender Workshop Level are You?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    I just dive right in and have a go at anything, unless of course it's a different dance style I've never done, but MJ, I just have a go at anything, even if it says "only for people with 15+ years of experience" or whatever.



    I try to come from the "have no fear" school of dance.
    In terms of personal damage, the floor can only be about 6 foot away and if I look like an idiot - so???

    I don't think I have ever held anybody else's learning back. If I ever have, please PM me and I shall apologise profusely

    I hopefully still have many years of dance left in me but my fitness (strength and flexibility) is already decreasing and my ability to take on new forms and step structures will, no doubt, reduce If I really want to do something, this is not the time to hold back!

  9. #29
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    Re: What Weekender Workshop Level are You?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I would check all the catagories too, depends on a lot of things, style and teacher being the main ones. Also, previous experience with "advanced" classes tell me they're not all that advanced in the MJ world at least
    I completely agree with this. Based on the dancer descriptions, I'd put myself at Intermediate 2. But have you ever seen a modern jive workshop aimed specifically at dancers who fit these descriptions of post-intermediate and advanced level?

    (This is not a rhetorical question, I'm genuinely curious. For example, anyone who matches either post-intermediate or advanced - what would you actually want to learn? Are there workshops available for you in mj??)

    Most 'advanced' mj workshops seem to be about moves/drops, etc, and, if I'd wished to do those, I wouldn't hesitate to try them. But I'd think I'd learn a hell of a lot more from early intermediate connection/musicality/style workshops. Again, depends on the teacher...

    Rachel

  10. #30
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    Re: What Weekender Workshop Level are You?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rachel View Post
    Most 'advanced' mj workshops seem to be about moves/drops, etc, and, if I'd wished to do those, I wouldn't hesitate to try them. But I'd think I'd learn a hell of a lot more from early intermediate connection/musicality/style workshops. Again, depends on the teacher...

    Rachel


    I won't hesitate to put myself in an advanced class for MJ at a weekender as my experience is that they are not that difficult if you have solid basic technique (not necessarily great, just solid...). I don't match the description posted of an advanced dancer by any stretch of the imagination though.

    Musicallity classes are usually worth doing regardless of your ability, and because they tend to use only very simple moves for illustration it's very unlikely you'd be holding anyone else back by attending even if you are quite new.

    I wouldn't try anything more than an intermediate WCS or Jango workshop. Anything else would find me in the beginner classes (unless it's Lindy, in which case I'll be at the bar ).

    I think there's a bit of a stigma associated with considering yourself an ''advanced'' dancer. I've heard so many people say that they're always still learning and only consider themselves beginners, including a couple of highly rated profesionals I can think of.

    I don't doubt that they're telling the truth when they say this. We're all always still learning if we keep an open mind. If you're placing in professional divisions of large internertional competitions though, chances are you're not a beginner. I'd go as far to say that if anyone could be considered advanced (or super/uber/ultra advanced).....it'd *have* to be them.

    At the end of the day the label *advanced* is just an arbitrary statement of ability relative to others around you. Nobody has any problems with the definitions of beginner and intermediate, but we need some label for those clearly more able than the typical intermediate dancer if we're going to talk about them in the same vein. Calling them endless derivates of intermediate 2, 3, post intermediate etc seems a little like false modesty to me in many ways.

  11. #31
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    Re: What Weekender Workshop Level are You?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rachel View Post
    Have you ever seen a modern jive workshop aimed specifically at dancers who fit these descriptions of post-intermediate and advanced level?
    Not me. I have seen post-intermediate and advanced MJ dancers (IMO) in workshops. I agree it seems like an open question as to whether there's even any demand for that level of workshop in MJ.

  12. #32
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    Re: What Weekender Workshop Level are You?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    I think there's a bit of a stigma associated with considering yourself an ''advanced'' dancer. I've heard so many people say that they're always still learning and only consider themselves beginners, including a couple of highly rated profesionals I can think of.

    I don't doubt that they're telling the truth when they say this. We're all always still learning if we keep an open mind. If you're placing in professional divisions of large internertional competitions though, chances are you're not a beginner. I'd go as far to say that if anyone could be considered advanced (or super/uber/ultra advanced).....it'd *have* to be them.

    At the end of the day the label *advanced* is just an arbitrary statement of ability relative to others around you. Nobody has any problems with the definitions of beginner and intermediate, but we need some label for those clearly more able than the typical intermediate dancer if we're going to talk about them in the same vein. Calling them endless derivates of intermediate 2, 3, post intermediate etc seems a little like false modesty to me in many ways.
    Good points

    "So when do I get a belt?
    Already got belt Julie-san.
    No, no - y'know, brown belt, black belt?
    *sigh* Why need belt Julie-san?
    So everyone will know how good I am
    You know how good you are - nothing else matters"
    Mr Miyagi and Julie, Karate Kid 4

    If you're really good enough to be doing classes at Martin's "advanced level", you don't need a label telling you they're "advanced classes". Likewise if you really are that good, you don't need to call yourself "advanced". The stigma, such as it is, seems to be in calling yourself advanced. There's no real issue with calling others advanced that I can see.

  13. #33
    Registered User Ghost's Avatar
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    Re: What Weekender Workshop Level are You?

    If a worshop was set at "Advanced" and only beginners turned up, would it be cancelled or taught as a begginners class?

    If a workshop was set as "Beginner" and only Advanced turned up would it be taught at a higher level (I'm guessing lack of prepared material would be a bigger barrier here) or still at Beginner?

    If a workshop was set as "Beginner" and mainly Advanced turned up with some Beginners would it be taught at a slightly higher level assuming the Advanced could carry the Beginners or would it remain a Beginners Class?

    I'm wondering if the categories for workshops are more related to the highest potential the teacher is prepared to teach (maybe one level lower?) and in reality are then adjusted on the day depending on who actually turns up. The categories themselves attempt to stop people from below that level turning up, but don't enforce it and indeed are ignored by some.

  14. #34
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    Re: What Weekender Workshop Level are You?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    If a worshop was set at "Advanced" and only beginners turned up, would it be cancelled or taught as a beginners class?
    I'm confident that with detailed descriptions like this, you would not find large numbers of beginners turning up to an advanced class. That's been my experience with Lindy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    The categories themselves attempt to stop people from below that level turning up, but don't enforce it and indeed are ignored by some.
    The categories are really an attempt to help people pick the groups where they'll learn stuff that they'll benefit the most from. Carrot, not stick. Obviously good teachers will adapt based on how their students are doing, for all kinds of reasons (tiredness, previous classes, luck, teacher misjudged the material, etc). However, they shouldn't have to adapt quite as much as they do now.

    Enforcement is possible too (and much easier than with vague descriptions like "experienced dancers only"), but I think that's a separate discussion.

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