Weekender workshop levels

[Lory]

In my opinion, those people would be best off going to a beginner Jango class to learn the basics of Jango, rather than assuming that their experience in other dances allows them to skip the basics of a new dance.

I'm very guilty of this myself that's why I chose to 'fix'... I wouldn't of wanted to hinder anyone else, if I was lost on something I should have already known..

But I did also (correctly) assume that there wouldn't be that many profficient pure Jangoister's in Scotland either! And so I deduced that it would make sense that Amir would use a combination of AT and MJ for the event!

[Ghost]

Sorry I don't think I worded that very well. I meant it wouldn't be fair to the experienced dancers. They would end up either being led by somebody who wasn't really able to lead those moves or they would be leading somebody who really wasn't able to follow the moves. Either way the advanced dancer who had attended that class due to it's description would end up very frustrated.


Agreed. However all punters are important. That means punters of all levels and all levels should be catered for.

Interestingly this is what Amir now does with his own workshops. There's two different foundation courses for beginners to chose from; the Monthly workshop for people who can do the foundation moves and the Advanced workshop for people who can do the intermediate moves. This means that beginners can take it at their own pace in the foundation. In the monthly workshop, people stand a chance of being able to pick up the moves because they're practicing on someone who's familiar with them rather than a beginner who's struggling with the basics. And the advanced can work on weird and wonderful moves because again everyone involved is at that level.

[MartinHarper]

Can you give an example of how this might translate into MJ or WCS?

Sure. I'll do MJ, since this is an MJ forum. The times given are rough guidelines of regular experience dancing.

Beginner: Less than six months. You are just starting off your journey with Modern Jive, and want to do it right. You find you learn a lot from beginner classes. Dancing in freestyle might feel daunting.
You will learn the basic moves of Modern Jive and how to perform them with confidence in freestyle. You will learn important aspects of dance etiquette.

Intermediate 1: 6-18 months. You know a variety of simple left-handed, right-handed, and two-handed moves. You are happy dancing freestyle, but can already tell how much better other dancers are. You are very comfortable in regular beginner classes, and are starting to take intermediate classes. You can spin well both on your own and with a partner. You can lead or follow with both hands, but one hand may feel better than the other. You have danced with your local teacher and may have picked up some valuable feedback that way. You don't yank your partners, or make them feel uncomfortable, and rarely fall over. In freestyle you are aware of other dancers and considerate towards them.
You will add more variety to your dancing, and learn to lead or follow all kinds of movements, from double spins to precise footwork.

Intermediate 2: 1-3 years. You have a solid repertoire of moves, including a few "trademark" moves that are more complex or surprising. You also know some close moves, some spinny moves, some travelling moves, some footwork, and some dips. You are still learning from regular intermediate classes, but are now feeling comfortable with that level. You have been to a few weekenders. You recognise the differences between different types of music, but don't know what do with them.
You will learn to dance with more style and better technique. You will also learn the basics of musicality, fitting your dancing to the music.

Post-Intermediate: 2-6 years. You have stopped collecting moves, and have started collecting new ways to move. You can dance to a wide variety of music, and your dancing reflects that music. You have been to many weekenders. You are one of the best dancers in your local scene. You can have great dances with international teachers and with complete beginners. You may have started teaching, or competing. Your dancing looks great and feels great. You have learnt the basics of some other dances, but are focused on Modern Jive.
You will learn to perfect your dance technique, hitting great lines and elegant sweeps that match every nuance of the music. Depending on the teachers, you may learn aerials, or drops, or other challenging moves.

Advanced: 4+ years. When you dance, you draw a crowd, without meaning to. You are a weekender regular, and one of the best dancers here. You can dance to any music at any speed, but you know which music you like best. All the other Advanced dancers know who you are, probably by name. You no longer have a repertoire of moves: you just dance. If you teach, you have taught at several weekenders. If you compete, you compete at Advanced or Open level. You search out the best national and international teachers for private tuition. You are so connected to your dance partners that it is as if they are an extension of your own body.
You will be taken to the very limit of your abilities. You will be asked to do things that defy the laws of physics. Your teachers will work you hard and give no mercy.

(I'd take Intermediate 2, given those descriptions)

[Lynn]

Hint for teachers. Get everyone off the dance floor. Everyone. Then explain the requirements. Then, and only then, allow folks to come onto the dance floor. Preferably get them to come onto the floor as singles, not couples, for example by saying "men on my right, women on my left".
Otherwise, your attempts to get folks who can't cope to leave will be fighting against people's instinctive desire not to abandon their current partner in the middle of the dance floor, and lose face by admitting they aren't capable of taking the class, and that's a losing battle.

I think that's an important point. In Amir's musicality class, near the end he offered the option to take things to a further level - those who felt they had taken in enough information were able to leave and those who wanted to learn a bit more could stay on - everyone was sitting around so it was easy for people to slip off at that point if they wanted to.

So I'd agree with getting everyone off the floor, sitting/standing around, not in pairs first - then explain the level and suggest that some might just want to watch. To illustrate this, maybe demo what people should be able to do in order to do the class, and then maybe demo some of what was going to be taught in that class.

Hopefully that would make a few folk be a bit more realistic - but some will still go ahead and do the class. The drawback to that is that those who are at the right level for the class, end up not learning much if they are rotating with people who haven't grasped the basics required to deal with what is being taught at that level.

Its not ideal, and it sounds selfish, but I'm starting to prefer to do such classes fixed - when I rotate I end up dropping out midway through the class out of sheer frustration and the feeling that I'm actually learning bad habits.

[jivecat]

Can someone who goes to weekenders for other dance forms do a comparison please - do you have the same sorts of problems? Or is this a Ceroc speciality (because of what I said earlier about Ceroc teaching moves).

In my very limited experience of tango events - The Tango Mango- there is a strict hierarchy of achievement/ability. Some classes were for everyone but other classes were labelled intermediate or advanced. The criteria seemed to be, if you have to ask, you definitely haven't made it yet. Teachers were not afraid of telling people they thought they were in the wrong class for their ability. Non-advanced people were firmly discouraged from attending advanced lessons which took place in an inner sanctum far from the gaze of the common herd. Yes, it did feel elitist. No, it was not always easy to live with. But I still fail to see the point of attending a technical lesson if I was struggling so much I would be unlikely to learn much myself and would also impede the progress of other paying customers.

The poll question looks at it from the teacher's point of view, which poses a difficulty for me. As a teacher of Infants it's my duty to meet the needs of the class rather than to impose an artificial standard on them. (Well that's not quite true, actually but I won't go ito it here.) So I think Amir did the right thing - he politely invited people to think about the previous knowledge, gave some alternative ways to participate, then cheerfully did the best he could to meet the needs of the class. My argument is really with the punters who were asked to make the decision as to whether they could cope with the class, and made the wrong one. IMO. MartinHarper's alternative of getting everyone off the floor first and then puting the suitably qualified people back on, is a good one but perhaps not that easy to carry out in a MJ context where nobody is prepared for that kind of sifting.


Admittedly the culture in MJ is for everyone to muck in together without worrying too much about whether they're getting a quality learning experience. It is one of the strengths of MJ.
But I don't think it would hurt for that to change, just a bit. Is it really outrageous to expect that someone should check if they've got the necessary foundation for a course before they start out? No, it's absolutely commonplace in most other areas of learning.

I love MartinHarper's

rough guidelines of regular experience dancing.

though it can't take account of people who get to be advanced after 6 months or people who will still be intermediate after 10 years. As a "post-intermediate" I'm looking forward to the crowd gathering. Will it be OK to put down an old shoebag for people to chuck their loose change into?

It's all relative anyway. There's no point in making a fuss about being excluded from an "advanced" class at a weekender considering we're all on a continuum somewhere between total beginner and professional dance deity and almost all of us are a lot nearer the former than the latter. (Like if that continuum was a timeline we'd be somewhere between the death of the last dinosaur and the invention of the wheel.) For example, "advanced" modern jivers would hardly moan about being chucked out of a Royal Ballet school class or a rehearsal for Burn the Floor, would they?

It should be a reasonably simple matter to get some teaching at a roughly appropriate level without anyone feeling they've been excluded - the important thing is that the freestyle would still be a mixed event.

[Andy McGregor]

IMHO the level of a class or workshop should be the level advertised. If people are not the right level they will get little or nothing out of it and might be slightly demoralised. However, if people are the right level and they will get nothing out of it if the lesson is adjusted downwards to the level of the people who aren't ready: those people will be annoyed and would be justified in asking for their money back as the product did not match the description

So, you have to make a decision as the person running the workshop: who gets something out of the workshop? Is it the people who are the right level for the workshop or is it the people who aren't ready for the workshop? It seems like a no-brainer to me

I have this dilemma on a regular basis at our classes. Often there is somebody who isn't getting the lesson. Usually it's just one guy - often the same guy, week after week after week after week I have 2 strategy's for handling this situation. The first one is to move on more frequently so that nobody is stuck with the dodgy guy for too long. The other strategy is to wait until a crew member gets this guy, often by choosing the correct number to move on, then I say something like "Sue (insert name of crew member), please stick with and help your current partner, do not join in with the rotation". If it is the same guy, week after week, I usually have a chat with them, give them individual coaching and suggest that they join in with the beginners consolidation until they're a bit more confident.

However, this doesn't work so well when there's more than one person who is not getting the lesson. In those circumstances I just teach at the level I intended. I don't ignore the class and teach each section until most people have got it. Sometimes that means the lesson over-runs by 10 minutes and sometimes I shorten the routine.

BTW, I don't teach "advanced" lessons. I don't think advanced dancing is about moves. IMHO it's about the music and what you do to the music. Of course, you'd need to be a very experienced dancer if the teacher goes through the moves quickly. But, IMHO, you could teach most "advanced" moves to complete beginners if you went really slowly and had the time, stamina and patience to do it.

I have offered "advanced workshops". I got Nigel & Nina to teach them

[ducasi]

However, this doesn't work so well when there's more than one person who is not getting the lesson. In those circumstances I just teach at the level I intended. I don't ignore the class and teach each section until most people have got it. Sometimes that means the lesson over-runs by 10 minutes and sometimes I shorten the routine.

In a weekender, you're likely to get many people who aren't getting the lesson – that's the point. You can't overrun, so you have to slow-down and reduce the material you intended to teach.

This means that those who were capable of doing what you were going to teach either get bored or feel cheated as they didn't get everything they could from the class.

Thus this discussion.

BTW, I don't teach "advanced" lessons. I don't think advanced dancing is about moves. IMHO it's about the music and what you do to the music.

"Advanced" is not just about music, etc. You can have advanced lots of things, including technique, connection, lead/follow, footwork, posture/balance, spinning, and even, incredibly, advanced moves!

Drops, lifts, and slides, for example, can be advanced. Moves involving unusual connection such as thigh or foot leads are usually best reserved for experienced dancers too.

[Andy McGregor]

"Advanced" is not just about music, etc. You can have advanced lots of things, including technique, connection, lead/follow, footwork, posture/balance, spinning, and even, incredibly, advanced moves!

Drops, lifts, and slides, for example, can be advanced. Moves involving unusual connection such as thigh or foot leads are usually best reserved for experienced dancers too.

IMHO you can have all of the things listed and still not be an advanced dancer. There are some tricky moves and there are some tricky techniques. Some people use them all of the time and make them look ordinary by not fitting them to the music. Those dancers are not, IMHO, advanced dancers. I think it's all about fitting them to the music. IMHO, the road where you just think of moves and unusual connections is not the road to advanced dancing, it's the road to difficult dancing.

[Lynn]

Moves involving unusual connection such as thigh or foot leads are usually best reserved for experienced dancers too.

Why? 'Moves' like that are taught at basic level in AT - they're simply about technique that can be taught to less experienced dancers. IMO the reason why this level of technique is not taught to beginners in MJ is partly about accessiblity - not scaring away new dancers and probably a large part about profitablity too.

[ducasi]

Why? 'Moves' like that are taught at basic level in AT - they're simply about technique that can be taught to less experienced dancers. IMO the reason why this level of technique is not taught to beginners in MJ is partly about accessiblity - not scaring away new dancers and probably a large part about profitablity too.

Why? Because they are unusual. Accessibility isn't a factor here. If we expected beginner dancers in MJ to be able to do these things, we'd teach beginners how to do them. Same goes for intermediate.

In different dances you teach different things to beginners based on what the dance is about.

[ducasi]

IMHO you can have all of the things listed and still not be an advanced dancer. There are some tricky moves and there are some tricky techniques. Some people use them all of the time and make them look ordinary by not fitting them to the music. Those dancers are not, IMHO, advanced dancers. I think it's all about fitting them to the music. IMHO, the road where you just think of moves and unusual connections is not the road to advanced dancing, it's the road to difficult dancing.

Can someone be an advanced dancer with brilliant musicality, and only the "in and out", "side to side" and "arm-jive" in their repertoire of moves?

[Lynn]

Why? Because they are unusual. Accessibility isn't a factor here. If we expected beginner dancers in MJ to be able to do these things, we'd teach beginners how to do them. Same goes for intermediate.

And have much smaller classes - and a lot less profit.

In different dances you teach different things to beginners based on what the dance is about.

So that means MJ is just about moves? Not technique, lead and follow and musicality? Drat, I'd better give up then and go and learn something else.

[Andy McGregor]

Can someone be an advanced dancer with brilliant musicality, and only the "in and out", "side to side" and "arm-jive" in their repertoire of moves?

This is, of course, a ridiculous question which does not merit a considered answer.

[ducasi]

And have much smaller classes - and a lot less profit.

The class would also no-longer be teaching beginner MJ. No wonder it's small.

So that means MJ is just about moves? Not technique, lead and follow and musicality? Drat, I'd better give up then and go and learn something else.

Is MJ about leg displacements? It is about tricky or dangerous moves?

No. So we don't teach them to beginners.

Technique, lead and follow and musicality are taught along-side moves in the best MJ classes.

[straycat]

Can someone be an advanced dancer with brilliant musicality, and only the "in and out", "side to side" and "arm-jive" in their repertoire of moves?

I know this was supposed to be a rhetorical question, but in my own view.... yes. Although it's somewhat unlikely to happen.

[ducasi]

I've just thought of a nice analogy...

If you can think of the "bag of knowledge" (a bit like a rucksack, perhaps) you need to be a MJ dancer, then what we teach beginners can be regarded as plain, big blocks of knowledge. If fills the bag quite well, but there's plenty of gaps.

So, then we go on to the intermediate class, and there you are taught more rounded knowledge which helps fill the spaces between the rough knowledge of the beginner and the edges of the bag of knowledge. Think of these as ball-bearings of varying sizes, filling in the gaps.

Advanced teaching is about finding and filling pockets on the outside of the bag which can make your dancing that bit special. All the same types of things you want inside the bag (technique, moves, musicality, etc) can also be found outside the bag, it's just that the stuff you have in these outside pockets isn't essential to make you a good MJ dancer.

It makes no sense to fill in the intermediate knowledge until you've got the basics done.

Filling the outside pockets can be done at any stage, but it makes sense to only start filling the outside pockets once the main bag is mostly full.

[Lynn]

Is MJ about leg displacements? It is about tricky or dangerous moves?

No. So we don't teach them to beginners.

Who said anything about teaching leg displacements or tricky or dangerous moves to beginners? You said moves led with leg or thigh were too complex for inexperienced dancers, I simply pointed out that new AT dancers seem to cope. I didn't suggest we should teach them in MJ - but made the point that technique seems to be considered something for 'experienced dancers' and 'moves' for beginners. I think if technique is taught well it can be taught to all levels - with a layering approach as people move up.

Unfortunately it seems that MJ is often about teaching moves and for the 'other stuff' you need to go to specialist classes/weekenders/Scotland...

Technique, lead and follow and musicality are taught along-side moves in the best MJ classes.

Good. I've not come across musicality taught outside a weekender, but good to know its taught in regular classes somewhere.

As to the weekender issue - thinking about it, I think the teacher should adapt to the class. If the level is way too high for most of the class then everyone suffers - those who can't cope and those who are trying to learn with them. If set at a lower level than advertised then hopefully the teacher can throw in a few more advanced concepts along the way that will add to the 'layers' for the more experienced dancers, without leaving the less experienced out of their depth.

I'm more likely to bail on a weekender class where the leads simply aren't getting it and I'm being trailed around while they try, than one where I'm already familiar with most of the material, but can work on connection, balance etc, while still getting some useful more detailed tips along the way.

[Rhythm King]

I currently pick my weekenders based on the teachers going. I want to do the more advanced classes they can offer. There are plenty of taster and generalist classes for people to go to, but I have paid my money as well and want a class at the level advertised, and not have it dumbed down for people who have decided on the spur of the moment to have a go.

The teachers do beginners classes during the weekends, the beginners can go to those. Incidentally I go to the beginners classes too, because there is always something of value to be learned, or re-learned, no matter how good one is (or thinks one is).

Incidentally, I went to a weekender earlier this year, where everyone present was auditioned!

[Lucy Locket]

I stopped doing the classes because there were always so many beginners or people who hadn't a clue what the class was about & it was so frustrating as I learnt nothing & couldn't enjoy it. Worse was these people doing intermediate classes because they'd missed the beginners one.

If anyone is looking for a fixed dance partner at Southport in June pm me please.

[Andy McGregor]

I've just thought of a nice analogy...

Really?