View Poll Results: What level should the teachers teach to?

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  • Should teachers stick to teaching to the level advertised?

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  • Should teachers teach the average level of the class?

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Thread: Weekender workshop levels

  1. #1
    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Weekender workshop levels

    Reading Jivecat's rant and FH's comments on the workshop levels, I wondered what the solution to this problem is?

    What level should the teachers teach to?

    Quote Originally Posted by jivecat View Post
    Rant Mode On:I was delighted to see clear labelling on classes : Beginners/Intermediates/Advanced. Looks promising, I thought. Why then, was this not adhered to? The advanced Jango was peopled with a number of people for whom "advanced" means they did the taster class the day before - maybe. Sorry, pals & palesses, but it was made clear that a basic amount of knowledge was needed as a basis for that class. Amir stated the basic requirements at the beginning of the lesson and gave some alternatives for the people who did not have the requisite experience - they could sit and watch or pair up and work with some one at a similar level. WHY, THEN, did no-one leave the floor at that point?? Because the class had many beginners it meant Amir could not easily carry out the more challenging tasks he had planned and people with a background of learning tango/jango did not get much out of the class because they were struggling with beginner leaders/followers. Now, I'm very happy to do that in most other classes but I'd rather not in a class labelled "advanced".

    Sorry to be blunt about this, and I certainly am not getting at individuals, but there were plenty of classes at the weekender that were perfect (indeed, should be compulsory material, IMVHO ) for beginners and improvers so why did they feel the need to attend the advanced classes? Do they not realise that effectively, they are preventing other people from getting the full benefit from classes? People need to be realistic about their own capabilities to give everyone a fair chance.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    Workshops - I confess, i only did one.. Amir's advanced Jango, (beautifully demo'd by MsFab) I definitely wouldn't say it was 'advanced'
    Quote Originally Posted by Freudian Hips View Post
    These classes were clearly marked as advanced (which made me wonder if I was going to be up to it). I think anyone who considers they should be in an advanced class should be able to do two walks and a triple step (Jivecat, your rant is reasonable ) I ended up leaving a class after it couldn't move at a reasonable pace to keep my interest.
    I honestly don't know the answer to this but it seems to me, that bringing in teachers like Ben and Carla, J&T and Amir, is a bit like using a 14lb hammer to squash a grape at most of the weekenders.... their fountain of knowledge seems somewhat wasted, by using them to simply teach the basics to complete beginners...

    I watched the WCS lesson and about half the people weren't even stepping forward on the correct foot (let alone ready to learn anything more advanced)

    So, looking at the class, how could they be expected to teach anything passed the basics

    They were advertised as the major attraction and one would assume, this was a selling point to attract the more advanced dancer but understandably, as they are the star act, everyone wants to be taught by them but IMO most of what they're capable of teaching, is wasted, as it has to be dumbed down to the lowest common denominator, which is fairly frustrating when you've managed to get passed the 'basics' stage yourself

    If I was an organiser, I honestly wouldn't know how i'd address this problem.. people have such fragile egos and telling someone they're not ready yet, runs the risk of offending them or make them loose their confidence, which in the end, would be counter productive.

    Maybe the only way to get the message across, is if a class is advertised as advanced, is to pitch the level 'high' and if people can't do it, they'll hopefully realise this themselves? Otherwise its a never ending cycle, they go to an advanced class, don't realise its being dumbed down, so therefore believe they 'are' advanced, as they coped with it...

    did any of that make sense?
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    Registered User Twirly's Avatar
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    Re: Weekender workshop levels

    Isn't this related to one of the core issues with Ceroc - it teaches people moves, but not to dance? Therefore someone who has been going for a few years might think they are advanced when they aren't really - maybe advanced in Ceroc, but not in dancing skills (which presumably is what you need if you are to do one of these more advanced workshops/do a workshop in something that isn't Ceroc).

    I'm not advanced, and I've only been to one weekender. But if I saw an advanced class, despite having been doing Ceroc for nearly 2 years now (I can't believe it's been that long ) I'd assume that it wasn't the class for me.

    I'd say, get the teachers to teach to the level advertised - what's the point otherwise? And more importantly, get them to outline the level of the class before they've even started! If it's an advanced or intermediate tango or WCS class, get them to say "We expect you to have been doing regular classes in this for x months or years - if you haven't, whilst you are welcome to stay, you are unlikely to learn much". And make it clear in the brochure as well, what level you are expected to have. Some people think that if you've done the beginners you can do the intermediate, and if you've done the intermediate that you can do the advanced - all at the same weekender (and I can see the logic there, even if it might not be the case).

    Weekenders need to attract and satisfy a range of dance levels. And catering to the lowest common denominator in every workshop isn't going to do that.

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    Registered User Tessalicious's Avatar
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    Re: Weekender workshop levels

    It's such a shame when these advanced workshops can't be what they say on the tin, even when they are taught as such, because of the people in the line that make it impossible for others to learn. I have a theory on how it could be solved, but it's a bit elitist - what do you think?

    Basically, since many of these classes are taught progressively (I remember Robert and Deborah teaching 4 WCS classes at MJC: beginners, improvers, intermediate, advanced), it should be possible to set the classes up so that you have one line of people who just did the previous workshop(s) and one of people who are there because they've learnt the dance style before. That way you can choose whether you're there as someone who is already advanced or someone who wants to be.

    Alternatively, where there is a big gap (such as the Introduction to Jango and what everyone would have liked the Advanced Jango to be) you should run the advanced class first, so that the people can't do the Intro and then decide that they're good enough to do the Advanced...

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    Re: Weekender workshop levels

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    their fountain of knowledge seems somewhat wasted, by using them to simply teach the basics to complete beginners...

    I was discussing this with someone after the last Southport - cant remember who off hand.

    IMO its a VERY valid point.

    John+Wes, Franck etc. should be applauded for paying to bring over these stars but I completely agree, their vast knowledge is, not wasted, but is less effective.

    I guess its the opportunity to dance/watch these guys that is also a benefit.

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    Re: Weekender workshop levels

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul F View Post
    I guess its the opportunity to dance/watch these guys that is also a benefit.
    I definitely learnt (even if I can't apply what I learnt ) from watching Carla freestyling and also from Dancing with Ben!

    As you say, the organisers should be applauded for giving us the opportunity to see them

    It would be a good idea to let them teach a class to each level, so no one misses out but also make a clear distinction between the levels and stick to it!
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    Re: Weekender workshop levels

    Quote Originally Posted by Tessalicious View Post
    Basically, since many of these classes are taught progressively (I remember Robert and Deborah teaching 4 WCS classes at MJC: beginners, improvers, intermediate, advanced), it should be possible to set the classes up so that you have one line of people who just did the previous workshop(s) and one of people who are there because they've learnt the dance style before. That way you can choose whether you're there as someone who is already advanced or someone who wants to be.
    I have to agree with you that this would be a good solution but sadly it would be as difficult to police as the current situation. This is especially highlighted in WCS classes that are aimed for the intermediate dancer. I have been doing WCS for over a year now and I would rate myself as a novice and yet you get people turning up for an intermediate class who aren't even sure of the basic 6 count moves. I am all for people trying to learn and push themselves, however it is a bit selfish to do it at the expense of other people. Although I realise that it must be difficult for the teachers they are really the only people who can keep the class on track and not pander to the lower level. Sadly as has been mentioned as soon as this sort of attitude is adopted then one gets accused of being elitist rather than someone who just wants to learn something new. I never expect a beginners class to be more advanced but I am perfectly happy to participate (and normally learn something) so people should be able to attend an intermediate class and be given what they expect as well.

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    Re: Weekender workshop levels

    In the weekly Ceroc classes the classes are always dumbed down to the lowest level. I do feel this is wrong. It is a very difficult balance. The newer people to the classes need to have something that they can begin to manage and not be scared away. The intermediate dancers need something to make them think though, something to help them progress. It's tricky as the make up of the classes are always changing and as such those dancers needs are changing too.

    With a weekender it must be even harder. I do feel that if a class is advertised as advanced then that is exactly what it should be. Some of the better dancers don't get a chance to get their levels pushed and get something they can get their teeth into. It's equally as important that the advanced dancers get classes and workshops that they can benefit from as it is for the beginners.

    The difficult question is how to you actually put this into practice. Yes you could have the teachers teaching what it was they had planned. This would work if the majority of people in the class were at an advanced level. If this wasn't the case though it really wouldn't work and also wouldn't be fair. You would have novice leads trying to lead advanced follows through the moves and vice versa. This would just lead to a lot of frustration.

    Good question. I don't envy the teachers and organisers here.

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Weekender workshop levels

    Quote Originally Posted by jivecat View Post
    Rant Mode On:I was delighted to see clear labelling on classes : Beginners/Intermediates/Advanced. Looks promising, I thought. [...]
    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    Workshops - I confess, i only did one.. Amir's advanced Jango, (beautifully demo'd by MsFab) I definitely wouldn't say it was 'advanced'
    Quote Originally Posted by Freudian Hips View Post
    These classes were clearly marked as advanced (which made me wonder if I was going to be up to it). [...]
    Is it worth pointing out that these classes were not marked as "advanced", they were marked as "Experienced dancers only!"? And as we all know, you can have years of experience without being an advanced dancer.

    Anyway, to answer the question, I don't think it is possible to either explicitly exclude people from the class by telling them they are not good enough, or (if it's a big problem) teach beyond people's abilities and hope they drop out.

    In a class that rotates, each partner you are with will be at their own standard. It's not fair if the teaching is pitched to deliberately leave the stragglers behind, as then everyone suffers.

    Perhaps a solution would be for teachers at the start of the class to give a "self-test" to those attending to help them decide whether they are going to gain from being at the class or not.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  9. #9
    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Weekender workshop levels

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Is it worth pointing out that these classes were not marked as "advanced", they were marked as "Experienced dancers only!"? And as we all know, you can have years of experience without being an advanced dancer.
    I see what you mean but when somethings called ADVANCED JANGO and it was highlighted in red, which was coded as 'experienced dancers only' I kind of assumed it was aimed at people who'd had some previous Tango or Jango training
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    Registered User Twirly's Avatar
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    Re: Weekender workshop levels

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirlie Bird View Post
    The difficult question is how to you actually put this into practice. Yes you could have the teachers teaching what it was they had planned. This would work if the majority of people in the class were at an advanced level. If this wasn't the case though it really wouldn't work and also wouldn't be fair. You would have novice leads trying to lead advanced follows through the moves and vice versa. This would just lead to a lot of frustration.

    Good question. I don't envy the teachers and organisers here.
    Why wouldn't it be fair? Is it fair to the people who go to the advanced/experienced dancers workshop that the class gets dumbed down because there are beginners there?

    And although the punters are probably more important - what about the teachers? Will they get bored/annoyed with teaching these "advanced" classes to beginners and get so frustrated that they give up and don't do weekenders anymore? In which case everyone loses out.

    Can someone who goes to weekenders for other dance forms do a comparison please - do you have the same sorts of problems? Or is this a Ceroc speciality (because of what I said earlier about Ceroc teaching moves).

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    Registered User Msfab's Avatar
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    Re: Weekender workshop levels

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I see what you mean but when somethings called ADVANCED JANGO and it was highlighted in red, which was coded as 'experienced dancers only' I kind of assumed it was aimed at people who'd had some previous Tango or Jango training

    Depends on your definition of experienced. Some people may think having a few classes at weekenders would count as enough experience It may be the case with some dance styles but with WCS and Tango/Jango (one I have experience in) a few classes here and there just isnt enough.

    What can you do? Start throwing people out thats not very inclusive

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    Re: Weekender workshop levels

    "Advanced Jango"?
    I'm curious. How many genuinely advanced Jango dancers are there, who were at this weekender, who do not go to regular Jango classes already? I'm kinda guessing the answer is kinda low. After all, the commonest way to become an advanced Jango dancer is to go to regular Jango classes. I'm thinking the numbers involved are probably low enough that the folks involved would do better off booking a private mini-workshop, rather than a scheduled class.

    I have doubts about the validity of an "intermediate Jango" or "intermediate WCS" class on a weekender. An "advanced Jango" class just sounds crazy.

    Quote Originally Posted by jivecat
    Amir stated the basic requirements at the beginning of the lesson ... WHY, THEN, did no-one leave the floor at that point?"
    Hint for teachers. Get everyone off the dance floor. Everyone. Then explain the requirements. Then, and only then, allow folks to come onto the dance floor. Preferably get them to come onto the floor as singles, not couples, for example by saying "men on my right, women on my left".
    Otherwise, your attempts to get folks who can't cope to leave will be fighting against people's instinctive desire not to abandon their current partner in the middle of the dance floor, and lose face by admitting they aren't capable of taking the class, and that's a losing battle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tessa
    ... many of these classes are taught progressively (I remember Robert and Deborah teaching 4 WCS classes at MJC: beginners, improvers, intermediate, advanced ...
    Taking that at face value, does that mean that after just four classes in WCS I'm ready to call myself an advanced WCS dancer?

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    Re: Weekender workshop levels

    Assuming there's a dvd it'd be interesting to see if Amir puts on it what he wanted to teach, or what he ended up teaching.

    Couldn't the Jango card system have been used in this case, especially if it was "advanced"? I'd have thought the number of advanced Jango dancers without yellow / green / blue cards is small enough that Amir probably knows them.
    Last edited by Ghost; 16th-May-2007 at 03:27 PM. Reason: Cross post

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    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Weekender workshop levels

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    Couldn't the Jango card system have been used in this case, especially if it was "advanced"? I'd have thought the number of advanced Jango dancers without yellow / green / blue cards is small enough that Amir probably knows them.
    Now 'that' really would be being elitist

    The only regular Jango classes I know about, are in London and this event was in Scotland, I doubt there were more than half a dozen people who'd ever been to jango...

    ... but, there were some very experienced MJ dancers, who were also very profficient at Argentine Tango

    I think the card system should be kept to Amir's regular classes
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    Re: Weekender workshop levels

    The standard of the average individuals dancing is subjective because there are not really any performance measures to go by.

    Some people will always feel that they are better than they really are, whilst others are more modest and will put themselves down. What does one actually have to be able to do in order to be considered advanced or intermediate?

    In regular Ceroc classes we are told that we can do the intermediate class if we've been to at least 6(?) beginners classes. We all know that there are some people who still aren't ready after 6 beginners classes, whereas others pick it up almost instantly. 'Experience' as a performance measure is not really the answer. I've often felt that instead of saying '6 or more classes', the Taxi Dancers should be given the responsibilty at the end of each beginners lesson of advising people if they are ready to progress.

    For workshops, I think we should be told in the literature prior to the workshop exactly what we already ought to be able to do, in order that we are neither bored, nor out of our depth. I don't think that it's appropriate to do this only at the start of the workshop because at this point people have already committed their time to being there, so they are probably more likely to muddle through anyway.

    Also, at weekenders there are always going to be lots and lots of people showing up. The more people, the wider differences in standard. As for teachers, they surely would prefer to cater for the majority, because that ultimately is how they make their money and advance their reputations, so is it in their best interests to be 'over selective' with their class outline, and risk having only a handful of folks showing up?


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    Re: Weekender workshop levels

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    Can someone who goes to weekenders for other dance forms do a comparison please - do you have the same sorts of problems?
    I go to Lindy weekenders.

    In my experience, classes in other dances (Boogie Woogie, Balboa, Blues, etc) are all taught as "no experience necessary" and "suitable for all levels". Occasionally a class will require either prior experience, or going to a previous class on the same weekender. Eg, "Solo Jazz Steps 2" requires "Solo Jazz Steps 1", or else a dancer who is already proficient at Jazz Steps.

    For the Lindy classes, there are typically a number of levels, with a reasonably detailed description at each level. The description is based on a number of months or years experience in regular Lindy dancing, and also on what a Lindy dancer at each level should be capable of doing. There is also be an exhortation for dancers not to dance above their level of comfort. It is normal to end up with about 1-5% of the people in a class who are noticeably out of their comfort zone. This is small enough that I've never found it hindering my learning. It's just a source of mild irritation and occasional gossip.
    Last edited by MartinHarper; 16th-May-2007 at 03:58 PM. Reason: simplify a sentence

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    Re: Weekender workshop levels

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I doubt there were more than half a dozen people who'd ever been to jango...
    So why teach an "Advanced Jango" class? Let those six people go get a private lesson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    There were some very experienced MJ dancers, who were also very proficient at Argentine Tango
    In my opinion, those people would be best off going to a beginner Jango class to learn the basics of Jango, rather than assuming that their experience in other dances allows them to skip the basics of a new dance.

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    Re: Weekender workshop levels

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    Now 'that' really would be being elitist
    Yeah, but it would have worked

    Bearing in mind I wasn't there.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    The only regular Jango classes I know about, are in London and this event was in Scotland, I doubt there were more than half a dozen people who'd ever been to jango...

    ... but, there were some very experienced MJ dancers, who were also very profficient at Argentine Tango
    Well this raises the tricky question of defining "advanced". I was advised by Amir when starting AT to treat it as something entirely different from Jango. I could see the case for someone experienced in MJ and Tango doing an intermediate Jango class - I'm just not sure about advanced?

    As a point of reference, the current advanced Jango classes in London are for green cards + ie someone who's done at least 30 hours of Jango. Some of the people in the class eg ChrisA have been doing Jango literally for years

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I think the card system should be kept to Amir's regular classes
    Ah well he gets the casting vote I do like the idea of holding the advanced class before the beginners class though

    Edit - Ok so I'm obviously on the same wavelength as Martin today.....

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    Re: Weekender workshop levels

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    reasonably detailed description at each level. The description is based on a number of months or years experience in regular Lindy dancing, and also on what a Lindy dancer at each level should be capable of doing.
    Can you give an example of how this might translate into MJ or WCS?
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    Re: Weekender workshop levels

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    Why wouldn't it be fair? Is it fair to the people who go to the advanced/experienced dancers workshop that the class gets dumbed down because there are beginners there?).
    Sorry I don't think I worded that very well. I meant it wouldn't be fair to the experienced dancers. They would end up either being led by somebody who wasn't really able to lead those moves or they would be leading somebody who really wasn't able to follow the moves. Either way the advanced dancer who had attended that class due to it's description would end up very frustrated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    And although the punters are probably more important - what about the teachers? Will they get bored/annoyed with teaching these "advanced" classes to beginners and get so frustrated that they give up and don't do weekenders anymore? In which case everyone loses out.).
    Agreed. However all punters are important. That means punters of all levels and all levels should be catered for.

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