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Thread: Sacred cows

  1. #21
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    Re: Sacred cows

    Quote Originally Posted by purpleheather View Post
    If you don't vaccinate, then at least you can tell when the disease hits the animal population (because the animals start developing symptoms etc). One of the nastiest things about with bovine TB is that TB can cross species (there is also an "issue" about TB in the badger population and whether this contributes to TB in the cattle population).
    You are right and there are so many reports written on this subject and some say there is a significant effect and others say there isn't )the joyful Gray area of science. Just depend where you are and where the test is done), so its still up in the air at the moment

    Though whist scanning through that blog was I the only one expecting to see "Shambo died due to TB"??? talk about Irony!

    TB is becoming Drug resistant and it is a global concern but there will always be health scares, Viruses and bacteria drug resistant strains. We are fighting Mother Nature and the human population is increasing exponentially.

    Mother nature will find a way to control it eventually but we can become immune to some diseases. AIDS for example (as soon as it was a health issue my dad said instantly "people will eventually become immune to that"), and some people are, and people may become immune to TB. The Aquired immunity can also be classed as survival of the fittest!

    What we are witnessing here is Evolution

  2. #22
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Sacred cows

    I agree with the general policy of slaughtering diseased livestock, but in this case this animal is more like a pet – being a bull it doesn't produce milk, and the owners are not going to sell it as meat.

    The tests which have been done are not especially reliable, but if it really does have TB, because it's isolated, it is very unlikely to pass on the disease to other cattle.

    At least performing more accurate tests and, if necessary, attempting to treat the animal would be the right thing to do.

    If it's then found still to have the disease, it can be humanely put down.

    Think of the animal as a pet cat carrying some sort of feline TB (I've no idea if such a thing exists). If it were your pet you'd want to make sure it had an incurable disease before you allowed a vet to put it down, wouldn't you?
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  3. #23
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    Re: Sacred cows

    Quote Originally Posted by Clueless View Post
    Mother nature will find a way to control it eventually but we can become immune to some diseases.
    Mother nature will find a way to control what, exactly? I didn't follow that.

    And while we may become immune to some diseases, that depends on a) the disease factore remaining immutable, which is not always the case, and b) hundreds of generations. There are millions of us, and for the immunity to take root depends on millions of pairings between immune parents to pass the immunity on to their children, or on the immunity gene being dominant so that any pairing with one immune parent produces immune children. It can easily be seen that even a population of 55 million like the UK will take a lo-h-ot of time before the majority is immune.

  4. #24
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    Re: Sacred cows

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    I agree with the general policy of slaughtering diseased livestock, but in this case this animal is more like a pet – being a bull it doesn't produce milk, and the owners are not going to sell it as meat.
    All irrelevant. During the foot and mouth scare a woman called "Carolyn Hoffe" lost a court battle to stop her pet sheep being killed - see here and a video here. Its "religious reasons" that are preventing the bull being killed, nothing else.

    If it were your pet you'd want to make sure it had an incurable disease before you allowed a vet to put it down, wouldn't you?
    Of course, but it doesn't happen that way - unless you're religious. The woman above had her sheep killed because they were 3km a way from an infected farm, they didn't have any signs of disease themselves. Contrast that with the bull who HAS tested positive. hmmm.

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    Re: Sacred cows

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Think of the animal as a pet cat carrying some sort of feline TB (I've no idea if such a thing exists). If it were your pet you'd want to make sure it had an incurable disease before you allowed a vet to put it down, wouldn't you?
    That isn't the position that's being taken by the temple. The position they are taking is 'We know it's tested positive but because of our religious beliefs we don't want the bull to be killed, and so therefore it should not be killed, whether or not the slaughter order is lawful'.

    It's exactly the same as the Catholics complaining that they should be exempt from equality laws affecting gay couples in the running of the catholic adoption agencies - "it's our religious belief, that's why we should be an exception", as though the phrase 'religious belief' is a magic forcefield that wards off any further discussion.

    It's interesting that Andrew Wakefield's hearing is currently under way at the GMC. His actions meant that enormous numbers of people were unnecessarily terrified of the MMR vaccination, and did not vaccinate their children. Result? Measles, mumps and rubella are (or were) on the increase in some areas because the number of vaccinated children was not a sufficient proportion of the general population.

    Not all of any governments policies will work well; but you have to have a better reason than superstition to be allowed to challenge them.
    Last edited by Barry Shnikov; 18th-July-2007 at 01:07 PM.

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    Registered User andystyle's Avatar
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    Re: Sacred cows

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Not all of any governments policies will work well; but you have to have a better reason than superstition to be allowed to challenge them.
    At the risk of sparking yet another exchange, I'd like to point out that for the people in question it isn't superstition. As the group in question would view their belief with such importance, it is not surprising that they would challenge the governing policy. In your opinion, it is superstition and this guides your opinions and actions. In their eyes, it isn't and they also act accordingly.

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    Re: Sacred cows

    Quote Originally Posted by andystyle View Post
    At the risk of sparking yet another exchange, I'd like to point out that for the people in question it isn't superstition. As the group in question would view their belief with such importance, it is not surprising that they would challenge the governing policy. In your opinion, it is superstition and this guides your opinions and actions. In their eyes, it isn't and they also act accordingly.
    well whatever you call it - it IS taking precedence in this case! Do you think it is a holy bull and should not be culled no matter what the possible risk is to other animals?

  8. #28
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    Re: Sacred cows

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    well whatever you call it - it IS taking precedence in this case! Do you think it is a holy bull and should not be culled no matter what the possible risk is to other animals?
    My view on the matter isn't really relevant. I've been following the thread, and felt like commenting on what Barry wrote. I appreciate he feels religion et al as a superstitious throwback to a previous age, and that he'll comment and react in a way based upon this. Equally, those that have a belief will generally react in a way that reflects their belief.

    To the Hindus who own(?) Shambo, their beliefs surrounding the bull are not, to them, superstitious and (I imagine) are important to them. Hence the controversy surrounding said bovine.

  9. #29
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    Re: Sacred cows

    Quote Originally Posted by andystyle View Post
    My view on the matter isn't really relevant. I've been following the thread, and felt like commenting on what Barry wrote. I appreciate he feels religion et al as a superstitious throwback to a previous age, and that he'll comment and react in a way based upon this. Equally, those that have a belief will generally react in a way that reflects their belief.

    To the Hindus who own(?) Shambo, their beliefs surrounding the bull are not, to them, superstitious and (I imagine) are important to them. Hence the controversy surrounding said bovine.
    yesm but Im asking YOU the qeustion - it does not belittle anyones beliefs if you answer

  10. #30
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    Re: Sacred cows

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    yesm but Im asking YOU the qeustion - it does not belittle anyones beliefs if you answer
    I wouldn't have thought it did.

    Personally, as I see it as an animal which could in the future be hazardous to health, I see the need for it to be destroyed. Unfortunately, the situation isn't as clear cut as that.

  11. #31
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    Re: Sacred cows

    Quote Originally Posted by andystyle View Post
    At the risk of sparking yet another exchange, I'd like to point out that for the people in question it isn't superstition. As the group in question would view their belief with such importance, it is not surprising that they would challenge the governing policy. In your opinion, it is superstition and this guides your opinions and actions. In their eyes, it isn't and they also act accordingly.
    Well, I'm stumped.

    Maybe you could help me by detailing the material difference between superstition and religion. As far as I can see, the only real difference between them is that religion (at least, Hindu and Christianity) are organised and systemised and superstitions aren't.

    'Don't put shoes on the table it means a death in the family' is not different from 'Don't eat eggs and chicken in the same dish'.

  12. #32
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    Re: Sacred cows

    Quote Originally Posted by andystyle View Post
    I wouldn't have thought it did.

    Personally, as I see it as an animal which could in the future be hazardous to health, I see the need for it to be destroyed. Unfortunately, the situation isn't as clear cut as that.
    Well, it's hazardous to health now.

    And as far the position not being clear cut, it is. Of course, and I confess I'm being a trifle cynical here, you have to say 'the situation isn't clear cut', because if you don't cut Hinduism a break, simply because it is 'a religion', you leave your own pet religion in a bit of a sling when it needs an Article 9 get-out sometime in the future.

    Even though you ought to be saying, as a christian, "this is idolatrous nonsense, there are no such entities as Shiva, Ganesh and so forth and there is nothing of particular importance about cattle as opposed to dogs or deer; and god gave us dominion over the beasts of the ground and the fowls of the air and the fish of the sea and if we determine that in the general interest an animal must die no primitive nonsense about sacred animals should be allowed to hinder that."

  13. #33
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Sacred cows

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Well, it's hazardous to health now.
    I don't think that's been proved.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  14. #34
    Registered User andystyle's Avatar
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    Re: Sacred cows

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Well, I'm stumped.

    Maybe you could help me by detailing the material difference between superstition and religion. As far as I can see, the only real difference between them is that religion (at least, Hindu and Christianity) are organised and systemised and superstitions aren't.

    'Don't put shoes on the table it means a death in the family' is not different from 'Don't eat eggs and chicken in the same dish'.


    It was you that previously mentioned superstition in what I took to be the context of this discussion. From previous exchanges I was under the impression you considered all religion as a form of superstition? All I'm saying is that one man's superstition is another's religion.

  15. #35
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    Re: Sacred cows

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    And as far the position not being clear cut, it is. Of course, and I confess I'm being a trifle cynical here, you have to say 'the situation isn't clear cut', because if you don't cut Hinduism a break, simply because it is 'a religion', you leave your own pet religion in a bit of a sling when it needs an Article 9 get-out sometime in the future.
    That's one view, but it's not why I'm posting. If the animal in question wasn't revered by any group of people, destroying it wouldn't be a problem. Unfortunately, that is not the case in this instance. The crux of the matter is that killing this animal interferes with the religious beliefs of a particular group, which is when this 'special cases' came out of the wood-work for debate. Hence why the position isn't clear-cut...if it were, I suspect we wouldn't be having this discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Even though you ought to be saying, as a christian, "this is idolatrous nonsense, there are no such entities as Shiva, Ganesh and so forth and there is nothing of particular importance about cattle as opposed to dogs or deer; and god gave us dominion over the beasts of the ground and the fowls of the air and the fish of the sea and if we determine that in the general interest an animal must die no primitive nonsense about sacred animals should be allowed to hinder that."
    I ought to, do I?

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    Re: Sacred cows

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Mother nature will find a way to control what, exactly? I didn't follow that.

    Controlling the human population.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    And while we may become immune to some diseases, that depends on a) the disease factore remaining immutable, which is not always the case, and b) hundreds of generations. There are millions of us, and for the immunity to take root depends on millions of pairings between immune parents to pass the immunity on to their children, or on the immunity gene being dominant so that any pairing with one immune parent produces immune children. It can easily be seen that even a population of 55 million like the UK will take a lo-h-ot of time before the majority is immune.
    The chances of the immune genes being passed on will increase as the susceptible proportion is removed

  17. #37
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    Re: Sacred cows

    Quote Originally Posted by Clueless View Post
    The chances of the immune genes being passed on will increase as the susceptible proportion is removed
    Wow - which sci-fi movie are we in? I think you missed out "resistance is futile" or something like that.


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    Re: Sacred cows

    DOH! I meant the susceptible proportion of the population is removed (by the individuals not living if they are infected by the disease).

    its what you get for 4 years in uni and getting a drinkers degree

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    Re: Sacred cows

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    I don't think that's been proved.
    Er - it's tested positive, that's why the slaughter order was made.

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    Re: Sacred cows

    Quote Originally Posted by andystyle View Post
    It was you that previously mentioned superstition in what I took to be the context of this discussion. From previous exchanges I was under the impression you considered all religion as a form of superstition?
    Ehh: ya got me there. Doh!

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