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Thread: Blues and Ceroc

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    Blues and Ceroc

    In our Belfast Intermediate class on Wednesday, Danielle went through a Blues routine. A bit daunting for most of us, but I am sure if practised for long enough the routine and the individual moves and perfection of the hand hold would soon click.
    Just out of curiosity what is the connection between Ceroc and Blues or which came first, Blues or Ceroc. Apart from The Tramp doing a blues routine at a Freestyle night in Belfast last year, this was my first experience of Blues, so pardon my ignorance in this area.
    Looking forward to Blaze this weekend!

    David

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    Re: Blues and Ceroc

    Quote Originally Posted by Dallen View Post
    Just out of curiosity what is the connection between Ceroc and Blues or which came first, Blues or Ceroc?
    As it was told to me:

    First there was Blues music, from some time around the 20s. Maybe earlier.
    Then there were people who danced to Blues music.
    Then blues dance was killed off, along with the rest of partner dancing, by "The Twist" in the 60s.
    Then there was a Lindy revival in the US in the early 80s. Lindy dancers danced to blues music from time to time.
    Then some Modern Jive dancers went to Herrang, saw the Lindy crowd dancing to blues, and created a style of Modern Jive that was suitable for blues music.
    From there it morphed into dancing to various genres of slow music, of which blues is a small part.

    Meanwhile, in the USA blues dancing continued to develop, with some instructors researching authentic pre-war forms of blues dancing. There now seems to be a separate scene with strong links to the Lindy scene. For example, there are weekend events dedicated to blues dance. I don't know to what extent this developing US scene has influenced "blues" dance in a Modern Jive context.

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    Re: Blues and Ceroc

    Quote Originally Posted by Dallen View Post
    Just out of curiosity what is the connection between Ceroc and Blues or which came first, Blues or Ceroc. Apart from The Tramp doing a blues routine at a Freestyle night in Belfast last year, this was my first experience of Blues, so pardon my ignorance in this area.
    Looking forward to Blaze this weekend!
    Ceroc isn't actually a dance - Ceroc is a company that teaches and promotes modern jive. It's a small but important distinction. Blues, as Martin said started waaaaaaaaay back. Ceroc formed as a company in the 1980's and they have brought thousands of people into modern jive partner dancing.

    However, like most forms of dancing it's fairly easy to move one form into another, take Amir's Jango (jive tango fusion) for example. If you can slow your modern jive moves right down you'll be OK in a blues room. If you really want to learn more about the difference before Blaze you could do far worse than read the FAQs that Gadget has listed in his .sig file.

    Have fun at Blaze and make sure you hit the blues room, it's a real education in dancing and so much fun

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    Re: Blues and Ceroc

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    However, like most forms of dancing it's fairly easy to move one form into another, take Amir's Jango (jive tango fusion) for example.
    Surely you jest. Jango may look simple but I would scarcely call it 'easy'. and WCS? Similarly easy to bag?

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    If you can slow your modern jive moves right down you'll be OK in a blues room.
    Not trying to be harsh but this sounds a bit like a major oversimplification ... and possibly abjectly wrong. I've never been taught Blues as just 'slowed down Ceroc'. Don't know who has been teaching that but I really wish it was that simple. Having said that, I'm sure a few lessons from a true Blues teacher, e.g. Nigel & Nina, Val & Rocky, and the basics could be picked up in a short space of time.

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    Re: Blues and Ceroc

    Quote Originally Posted by Dallen View Post
    ...Just out of curiosity what is the connection between Ceroc and Blues or which came first, Blues or Ceroc. ..
    There was a blues ofshoot of the Foxtrot active around 1919. The Library of Congress has some recordings, sheet music and books aout it, but their site has been "improved" since I scanned them to timeout, and I cannot post a link to the little I found this time.

    This was very much upper frame connection. This was adopted and adaped by some swing dancers later on. This was the version taught by Noelle Gray.
    I am over 6ft and could not make this work at all with most ladies, and not work well with anybody.

    BluesDance for Blues Dance

    Nigel and Nina taught a MJ tinged version, which looks to me like it had some of its roots in the down and dirty dancing to blues music done by the coloured folks. Here the connection is thigh to thigh. I love dancing in this vein to expressive numbers, where UCP Manhattans, laybacks and "The Grapevine" fit the music

    Peter Phillips taught a version closer to slow MJ, with some nice moves. Unfortunately I could not overcome height differences with most of those either.

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    Commercial Operator StokeBloke's Avatar
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    Re: Blues and Ceroc

    <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by StokeBloke
    If you can slow your modern jive moves right down you'll be OK in a blues room.
    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Not trying to be harsh but this sounds a bit like a major oversimplification ... and possibly abjectly wrong. I've never been taught Blues as just 'slowed down Ceroc'. Don't know who has been teaching that but I really wish it was that simple. Having said that, I'm sure a few lessons from a true Blues teacher, e.g. Nigel & Nina, Val & Rocky, and the basics could be picked up in a short space of time.
    Gus do you have a PhD in being obtuse. I told the guy he'd be OK, to reassure him that he could go along and join in without feeling like a complete divvy. The same concerns I had when I went to my first blues night. I never mentioned anything about anyone teaching that did I Gus? As for certain dance moves being abjectly wrong, yeah.... ok... who made you chief constable of the dance police?

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    Re: Blues and Ceroc

    Quote Originally Posted by Gussie & Stokie
    some good-natured, playful banter
    I know you guys are best of friends and all, and like to indulge in this playful verbal jousting stuff, but you're in danger of giving newcomers a false impression of the wonderful sense of harmony and unity that normally pervades the forum. And within five posts, too - impressive, in some very strange way

    Anyway - you're both right, of course. One can simply do slowed down MJ moves in a blues room, and have a good time with it. It's a far cry from what's generally regarded as 'proper' blues dancing - but since the definition of 'proper' blues dancing varies so radically from person to person, who's to say?

    Ultimately (in my opinion) it could be seen as toolkit of connection techniques & movement skills which allow you to improvise freely to 'blues' music ('blues' in the dancing sense, rather than the musical genre) - it's that philosophy & set of base techniques that the Lindy blues people use, and which was imported (fairly intact) into MJ.

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    Re: Blues and Ceroc

    As far as I'm concerned there are only 3 reasons why Blues has become so popular in this Country: Nigel & Nina and Simon Selmon.

    Of course it would have developed at some point anyway but these 3 inspirational teachers and dancers led the way and everyone else since has stood on their shoulders.


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    Re: Blues and Ceroc

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    everyone else since has stood on their shoulders.
    Wow. Never seen move that in a blues room!

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    Re: Blues and Ceroc

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    Ultimately (in my opinion) it could be seen as toolkit of connection techniques & movement skills which allow you to improvise freely to 'blues' music ('blues' in the dancing sense, rather than the musical genre) - it's that philosophy & set of base techniques that the Lindy blues people use, and which was imported (fairly intact) into MJ.

    I'd be genuinely interested (cos I know there are peeps out there that know far more about this stuff than me) to hear about a connection issue, or some technique used in Blues that just would not be used in everyday MJ if the music demanded it by a dancer who had that technique/skill in his/her armoury ?

    What is the fundamental and unique difference between Blues and MJ ?
    I'd have a problem answering that without writing a thousand word essay about the emphasizes and subtleties of the two dances.
    Sure, you could answer, I dunno... say 'musicality' or 'improvisation' or something, but those are used in MJ as well, so unless you start to argue about the quantities, or the emphasize given to it, it's not really a difference.

    Therefore.... for me about the only difference between MJ and (MJ) Blues is that the emphasize on certain things is somewhat different. Mostly either dictated, and/or 'allowed' by the slower paced music. Not that that is a small thing at all, but it's not unique to Blues in terms of any given technique or movement skill as far as I know (see question above )

    Lets face it, the one single move, the closed weight shift sway, that used to be (more or less) unique to Blues has already been stolen and incorporated into everyday MJ by just about everybody. The boundaries, never that well defined to start with, are almost completely blurred now. (IMO).

    What is a 'total expression Blues' workshop if it's not a 'slow smoochy Ceroc' workshop ?


    Philosophy I wouldn't know about, my dance philosophy is just to have fun. I'm a heathen

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    Re: Blues and Ceroc

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    ...Lets face it, the one single move, the closed weight shift sway, that used to be (more or less) unique to Blues has already been stolen and incorporated into everyday MJ by just about everybody. The boundaries, never that well defined to start with, are almost completely blurred now. (IMO)...
    The blurring of boundaries and incorporation were the innovations of N&N and others. They taught a lift from closed sway position that I have not seen anybody else do. (I admit, I do lead a sheltered life.) Noelle taught some slides from that position, and Peter may have too. These are moves I have not seen in any Ceroc class. Blues is a state of mind and emotion, it is not about moves. Blues, MJ, whatever, it is all dance.

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    Re: Blues and Ceroc

    I think technically where in MJ you move 'in and out', in blues the movement is more 'in and in'. Keeping body contact as much as possible with your partner, and as has been said the slowness of the dance makes it far less of a spectator sport. Most MJ moves can be slowed down and adapted to fit into blues, but to be honest if you are trying hard to pull off lots of moves in a blues room, you've kind of missed the point

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    Re: Blues and Ceroc

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    I think technically where in MJ you move 'in and out', in blues the movement is more 'in and in'. Keeping body contact as much as possible with your partner, and as has been said the slowness of the dance makes it far less of a spectator sport. Most MJ moves can be slowed down and adapted to fit into blues, but to be honest if you are trying hard to pull off lots of moves in a blues room, you've kind of missed the point




    IMO I don't like doing the 'in and out' to bluse music your to far away, but love this move when the music is faster

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    Re: Blues and Ceroc

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    Lets face it, the one single move, the closed weight shift sway, that used to be (more or less) unique to Blues has already been stolen and incorporated into everyday MJ by just about everybody.
    I agree that a "weight shift in closed" (and indeed "weight shift in open") can be danced in both Modern Jive and MJ-based blues. However, it is a more common move in MJ-based blues, coming close to the status of a basic. It also has more variations in the context of MJ-based blues. It is of course possible to mix-and-match moves from any dance into any other dance, but that doesn't mean that dances don't have characteristic moves that are taught early, danced often, and work best.

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    Re: Blues and Ceroc

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    I never mentioned anything about anyone teaching that did I Gus? As for certain dance moves being abjectly wrong, yeah.... ok... who made you chief constable of the dance police?
    Think you need to look at a dictionary to see what 'obtuse ' means.

    I was commen ting on what you said ... maybe not your intention. IMHO you mad ea number of comments that I thought were misleading so I tried to clarify. I'm not a chief constable of the dance but I'm a qualified instructor, been teaching a fair while (including Blues workshops) and been on the scene for longer .... doesn't that allow me to express an opinion? As a comparsion, your dance experience would be ......????

    The point I was trying to make ... and probably not that well, was that if someone wanst to do Blues I would suggest the best way is to find a Blues event where there is at least an intro lesson or better still fo a Blues workshop with one of the better Blues instructors ..... can we at least agree on that.

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    Re: Blues and Ceroc

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    I'd be genuinely interested (cos I know there are peeps out there that know far more about this stuff than me) to hear about a connection issue, or some technique used in Blues that just would not be used in everyday MJ if the music demanded it by a dancer who had that technique/skill in his/her armoury ?
    Connection issues: I don't think it's so much that one uses connection techniques in Blues that aren't used in MJ. It's more the case (I believe) that good Blues teachers teach connection techniques that do not, as a rule, get taught in standard MJ lessons. Once learned, however, they can be applied to other dance areas - and they're fantastic techniques to use in standard MJ.

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    What is the fundamental and unique difference between Blues and MJ ?
    I'd have a problem answering that without writing a thousand word essay about the emphasizes and subtleties of the two dances.
    Ask a different person, get a different answer....
    My personal perspective: MJ is a move-based dance form, with a structure open enough that you can weave a lot of musicality into the dance. Blues (in its purest form) is a 'moveless' dance form based simply on basic connection techniques, movement skills and musical interpretation, into which one can weave moves and the like from other dance forms (eg MJ)

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    Sure, you could answer, I dunno... say 'musicality' or 'improvisation' or something, but those are used in MJ as well, so unless you start to argue about the quantities, or the emphasize given to it, it's not really a difference.
    IE: It aint what'cha do, it's the way that ya do it...

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    Lets face it, the one single move, the closed weight shift sway, that used to be (more or less) unique to Blues has already been stolen and incorporated into everyday MJ by just about everybody. The boundaries, never that well defined to start with, are almost completely blurred now. (IMO).
    I don't really buy that. Example: Lindy Hop uses (and always has used) an enormous number of Charleston moves, some intact, and some which it's "made its own" - but there's still a clear distinction between the two dances - there's certainly no blurring of boundaries. Likewise - Blues techniques like the Blues closed-hold sway are also commonly used in Lindy to great effect, but again - there's certainly no blurring of boundaries going on.

    This is really why I say that I see Blues as a philosophy, not a dance. One tends to take the techniques in it, and applies them to one's own dance skills, be they Jive-based, Lindy-based, handbag-based, or whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    What is a 'total expression Blues' workshop if it's not a 'slow smoochy Ceroc' workshop ?
    Blues need not be smoochy (I personally prefer that it isn't), and it need have nothing in common with MJ at all. My slightly more snobby answer to this would be that such a workshop would be 'So much more than a slow smoochy Ceroc workshop is ever likely to be'. OTOH, it's likely to teach you a load of amazing things that can then be applied back into your MJ repertoire with wonderful results...

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    Philosophy I wouldn't know about, my dance philosophy is just to have fun. I'm a heathen
    If that makes you a heathen, then that makes two of us.

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    Re: Blues and Ceroc

    I thought blues dance was originally lindy/swing dancers just dancing to slower (at that time a slower jazzy blues music) and thus creating themselves different moves for expression for that music.

    It seems to be being created on here in the UK in present time by Val and Dave etc... so its probably evolving as we speak.

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    Re: Blues and Ceroc

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post

    Ask a different person, get a different answer....
    My personal perspective: MJ is a move-based dance form, with a structure open enough that you can weave a lot of musicality into the dance. Blues (in its purest form) is a 'moveless' dance form based simply on basic connection techniques, movement skills and musical interpretation, into which one can weave moves and the like from other dance forms (eg MJ)
    Sounds a bit like the American Blues I have seen on Youtube.
    I'm not a huge fan of Blues rooms in that, for example, at weekenders, I get more buzz dancing in the main rooms, so I can't claim any accuracy in this observation, but I can't say I've seen that (with one honourable exception+partners) as the predomnent version of weekender Blues.
    It was certainly not what I was taught at my two Blues workshops, which was slow smoochy Ceroc. Actually, the Howard and Nicole one was just slow Ceroc with a bit of a Mangle thrown in to confuse us all (good fun tho)


    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    If that makes you a heathen, then that makes two of us.
    Cor, we can start a tribe! Mo'Tribe ?
    Note to other readers, unless you suffered as Straycat264 did years ago, you may not get the true genius of that joke. LOL.

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    Re: Blues and Ceroc

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    Sounds a bit like the American Blues I have seen on Youtube.
    I'm not a huge fan of Blues rooms in that, for example, at weekenders, I get more buzz dancing in the main rooms, so I can't claim any accuracy in this observation, but I can't say I've seen that (with one honourable exception+partners) as the predomnent version of weekender Blues.
    I think I should qualify my comments by pointing out that I first started learning Blues dancing at Beach Boogie in '98 from N&N (at least - I think it was BB - could also have been at MJC. Or both) - anyway - the style of class was much more like what you call 'American' blues. Anyway - no smooching.

    I've been told that N&N (or just N nowadays, I suppose?) are (is?) now teaching something much more move-based - but I've not done an MJ-based blues workshop in years, so I'm a little out of touch on current trends. I did see a Howard / Nicola performance a couple of years ago ... hmm. Very good, but it wasn't a style that I liked. Sounds like MJ blues trends have changed a bit since I started.

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    Cor, we can start a tribe! Mo'Tribe ?
    Note to other readers, unless you suffered as Straycat264 did years ago, you may not get the true genius of that joke. LOL.
    Noooooo! You mentioned the 'M' word.... Just when I thought I was free of all the nightmares...

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    Re: Blues and Ceroc

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    It was certainly not what I was taught at my two Blues workshops, which was slow smoochy Ceroc. Actually, the Howard and Nicole one was just slow Ceroc with a bit of a Mangle thrown in to confuse us all (good fun tho)
    I can see the front page of The Dancing Times now - Slow Modern Jive Works in Blues Room Shocker


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