Mary Poppins v Amir and Cat - the people decide

[Raul]

Well ... to me anyway, the question was not "Should people on this forum cast a vote on the two shows?" it was "Which show did you prefer ?"

If you do not want to vote, fair enough, make a comment and don't vote. When someone asks me for an opinion, I give one although I accept that it comes from personal preference and not impartial or perfect judgement.

I do not believe that there is a conspiracy theory or that anyone is being disrespectful to the judges at the Champs or Phil and Alex (the setting was Mary Poppins where as Amir and Cat's dance were a dance to a Gotan track few people know).

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[Rocky]

In every competition there are decisions from the judges which seem to differ from "popular opinion". That's because the judges tend to be looking more critically than the audience and may come away with differ opinions of the performances.

Thing is, it's not a popularity contest, otherwise they would do away with the judges and employ a clap-o-meter.

Exactly.. and very well put.

In my view it comes down to this. Do you want to be entertained, or do you want to be inspired?

Precisely,
Cabaret Category = Entertainment
Showcase Category = Inspirational

I don't see there is a difference. A 'Cabaret' and the content within can easily be inspirational. Likewise a 'Showcase' would need to be entertaining otherwise how would it inspire? There are of course grey areas in both and we could be pedantic about it (yawn) but all 3 showcase finalists IMO were inspirational AND entertaining. It is subjective, but I personally thought that MP was more inspirational than AC in that it ticked the boxes in all areas of what dancing is supposed to convey.

AC were clearly inspirational to an MJ audience, but I would have loved to have heard the feedback if MP was performed to a Tango based audience...

From the judge's mouth... (I am aware this is somewhat of a selective quote)....

Without wanting to get into the specifics of two routines I've never seen (other than a grainy YouTube version of Amir/Cat's routine), if the judges are saying "routine A may have been better danced than routine B, but we think routine B was more entertaining", and yet "popular opinion" is that routine A was actually more entertaining, then I think that does show a problem with the judging. Entertainment value is one area where "popular opinion" surely is a very important criteria.

I do find it odd David that you would emphasise one aspect of my comment whereas the entire comment, with all aspects, carry equal weight - I thought that was clear?

A showcase is a showcase - that encompasses all areas of what that means. That is, that it is not purely a showcase of dancing. It's about theater, it's about entertainment, it's about presentation and it's about creativity, technical proficiency and musicality.

Never having been to a comp. as such I didnt realise that the dance had to tell a story.
Basically what you are saying then is that in the case of showcase it is theatre.
Hey ho and there was me thinking it was couples doing moves that I have no idea how to do but dressed up to add a little sparkle to the proceedings.

It doesn't (see above) however, adding a story in can make it more cohesive, but it's not the main criteria by which a Showcase is judged.

[angelblue]

At the end of the day

SHOWCASE means SHOWCASING a dance whether it be jive,wcs,tango,ballroom..........SHOWING the dance off!

CABARET means performing a PIECE or an ACT with PROPS and dressing up.

So, the two couples should never of been in the same category, never mind be compared!!

With only one category though what can you do?

Maybe CEROC should take this on board for their next competition.

[Spiky Steve]

As long as the peoples stupid opinions were ignored for the actual results, then yes, it would be interesting to compare

Thanks for the response.

Judges are people though and they will have their own opinions. Some like aerials and some don't like dips and drops. Some like cabaret and some like technical content. At the end of the day it all comes down to opinions. Audience vote would certainly widen opinion and give another opinion.

Spiky Steve

[David Franklin]

I do find it odd David that you would emphasise one aspect of my comment whereas the entire comment, with all aspects, carry equal weight - I thought that was clear?

Because I only wanted to talk about one aspect of your comment - I thought that was clear too. I explicitly said it was a selective quote and the emphasis was mine, after all.

Like many others, I don't actually like the way this thread was started. I think it's more than a little tacky to be publicly questioning the results like this. And I think the judges are perfectly entitled to have a different winner than the rest of us.

But I would still say that if the "majority opinion" of which routine was more entertaining differs strongly from the judges' view (note the emphasis, I have no idea which routine the judges thought more entertaining), then that indicates a problem with the judging.

Which isn't the end of the world. Judges are human too, and I think it is difficult for a judge (who is probably in the top 0.1% of dancers) to decide what the bottom 50% will actually enjoy(*).

(*) Though all the discussion I've ever heard (including a lot on various "non-dancer" boards) makes me think that even to the masses, the theater side of things doesn't matter nearly as much as you might think. "I just want to see the dancing" is a frequent comment.

[Dreadful Scathe]

At the end of the day

SHOWCASE means SHOWCASING a dance whether it be jive,wcs,tango,ballroom..........SHOWING the dance off!

No it doesn't Where did you get that definition from ? The only important thing is what the judges think a showcase is, and its clearly not just that.

CABARET means performing a PIECE or an ACT with PROPS and dressing up.

Thats only one part of it. Cabarets, at least the ones we are talking about, are performed at amateur MJ dance competitions not on stage on Broadway. So its as much a "showcase" of the dance and the dancers/choreographers ability as it is entertainment. In fact the coherence of the dance is generally the most important thing, unsurprisingly really; but the general spectator does tend to go for <insert preference here> whereas the judges have to look at the big picture.

[Rocky]

At the end of the day

SHOWCASE means SHOWCASING a dance whether it be jive,wcs,tango,ballroom..........SHOWING the dance off!

CABARET means performing a PIECE or an ACT with PROPS and dressing up.

So, the two couples should never of been in the same category, never mind be compared!!

With only one category though what can you do?

Maybe CEROC should take this on board for their next competition.

Disagree - if you actually go on and look at the various definitions of what 'Cabaret' means, by and large the concept is that it is 'after dinner entertainment' - it is then also specified as by. 'a dancer, singer, poet, actor or comedian'.

There are no mentions of props or costumes...

It seems like I'm defending Phil and Alex for the hell of it - but I'm not. Many of you seem to be getting so fixated about dancing V's cabaret that you seem to be forgetting that they DID showcase all aspects of MJ. They were showcasing MJ and A&C were showcasing Tango - fine, but they did showcase Aerials, syncronization and MJ moves and they did show how that could be danced as a partnership in a modern partner dance competition. The fact that they also employed props and costumes within a story line too, seems to be detracting from the fact that they also danced a technically demanding routine brilliantly.

A&C were NOT marked down for dancing Tango because showcase is all about showcasing different styles of dance - and I also thought what they did (as with Simon and Nicole who had a WCS bias) was exceptional.

But what they did was 'different' and we shouldn't confuse that with being necessarily 'better' for the purposes of judging.

As regards comments on 'entertainment' - well, I personally thought that MP got a larger round of applause then AC (as did Simon and Nicole) - If that's a crirteria you want to employ... and that's despite the fact that many of the audience had seen it previously. I was also well placed to judge the level of applause being sat in the middle of the auditorium and ahead of the crowd. So, it didn't appear to me that the judge's results differed from the majority (apart from the odd vocal forumite maybe..)

[David Franklin]

Sorry to follow up my own post, but I wanted to say a little more about this:

Which isn't the end of the world. Judges are human too, and I think it is difficult for a judge (who is probably in the top 0.1% of dancers) to decide what the bottom 50% will actually enjoy(*).

Something that came to mind is my own (and others) experience from choreographing showcases (or cabarets, whatever you want to call them).

All the months you spend choreographing a routine, you are trying to make it as entertaining as possible. And then you actually perform it, and you find the bit you thought was an absolute "this will blow their socks off" section gets no response, and then everyone says afterwards "I really liked the bit where you did X", which you'd only put in as a bit of filler 'cos you couldn't think of anything better to do.

So if we spend months on a routine, including hours of watching it on video, asking people for feedback, etc. and we still can't tell what the audience is going to like, it is hardly surprising that a Judge seeing it for 3 minutes is going to find it hard too.

Another thing from personal experience: Applause can be misleading. If you have a routine with lots of flash moves, you will get a lot of applause. Sadly, it doesn't mean the audience think it's a fantastic routine. It just means it is really obvious where you are "supposed" to applaud. Conversely, if I watch a very "subdued" routine, it can feel like applauding in the middle would be "interrupting" the performance. So such a routine might not get the applause it deserves.

[fletch]

I've seen both of these 'showcases' a few times now Showcase would have the more 'pure dance' performances such as Amir and Cat, Phil and Yuko, Jango Team....

At the end of the day

SHOWCASE means SHOWCASING a dance whether it be jive,wcs,tango,ballroom..........SHOWING the dance off!

CABARET means performing a PIECE or an ACT with PROPS and dressing up.

So, the two couples should never of been in the same category, never mind be compared!!

With only one category though what can you do?

Maybe CEROC should take this on board for their next competition.

I agree with this comment, IMO Mary Poppins is more a CABARET & Cat & Amir is SHOWCASE not that i'm any expert

To me what Cat and Amir do in 'dance' is something very, very, special, you will have to go a long way to find anyone to compare

You stand mouth wide open while watching and then screaming applause when they have fineshed....truly fab

[Spiky Steve]

As the only current vote for the broomstick I wanted to explain my vote.

I like fun. I would see a musical over a serious dance performance.

I love modern jive because it's about involvement of everyone and giving people who may never have danced the chance to have a go.

For me the broomstick is a work of amateurs for amateurs and great fun and I appreciate and enjoy their efforts.

Amir is a trained dancer and obviously fantastic and professional dancer but I would need to see him compared to Vincent and Flavia or the like.

For me fun over technical ability but you really connot compare.

Spiky Steve
Respect to both

[Cruella]

As regards comments on 'entertainment' - well, I personally thought that MP got a larger round of applause then AC (as did Simon and Nicole)

: Applause can be misleading. If you have a routine with lots of flash moves, you will get a lot of applause. Sadly, it doesn't mean the audience think it's a fantastic routine. It just means it is really obvious where you are "supposed" to applaud. Conversely, if I watch a very "subdued" routine, it can feel like applauding in the middle would be "interrupting" the performance. So such a routine might not get the applause it deserves.

I personally didn't want to applaud after Amir and Cat's routine. It was a routine of such beauty and took my breath away (again). To me the applause at the end ruined that serene atmosphere that the dance had created. So I agree with DF that the level of applause can be misleading.
Whereas Mr and Mrs Motley's routine created a buzzing atmosphere that made me want to clap and cheer.

[David Franklin]

In relation to the 2 juxtaposed quotes in Cruella's post above, I'd just like to say that I composed my reply before seeing Rocky's; that it seems to be a direct response to him is nothing more than (a rather spooky!) coincidence.

[angelblue]

Disagree - if you actually go on and look at the various definitions of what 'Cabaret' means, by and large the concept is that it is 'after dinner entertainment' - it is then also specified as by. 'a dancer, singer, poet, actor or comedian'.

There are no mentions of props or costumes...

It seems like I'm defending Phil and Alex for the hell of it - but I'm not. Many of you seem to be getting so fixated about dancing V's cabaret that you seem to be forgetting that they DID showcase all aspects of MJ. They were showcasing MJ and A&C were showcasing Tango - fine, but they did showcase Aerials, syncronization and MJ moves and they did show how that could be danced as a partnership in a modern partner dance competition. The fact that they also employed props and costumes within a story line too, seems to be detracting from the fact that they also danced a technically demanding routine brilliantly.

A&C were NOT marked down for dancing Tango because showcase is all about showcasing different styles of dance - and I also thought what they did (as with Simon and Nicole who had a WCS bias) was exceptional.

But what they did was 'different' and we shouldn't confuse that with being necessarily 'better' for the purposes of judging.

As regards comments on 'entertainment' - well, I personally thought that MP got a larger round of applause then AC (as did Simon and Nicole) - If that's a crirteria you want to employ... and that's despite the fact that many of the audience had seen it previously. I was also well placed to judge the level of applause being sat in the middle of the auditorium and ahead of the crowd. So, it didn't appear to me that the judge's results differed from the majority (apart from the odd vocal forumite maybe..)

Ok so i havnt gone as far as looking it up in a dictionary but i have many years of experience in dancing and competition and there is a difference in caberet and showcase. Always has been

[Astro]

Amir and Cat's performance mesmorised me - and it is a rare thing for me these days. The false ending was wicked.

[Cruella]

The false ending was wicked.

Just goes to show how tastes are different, that is the one part of the routine I don't like.

[Rocky]

Ok so i havnt gone as far as looking it up in a dictionary but i have many years of experience in dancing and competition and there is a difference in caberet and showcase. Always has been

OK - so explain to me why you think what Phil and Alex did was a cabaret and not a showcase - in detailed and convincing terms: because in my mind you have no way of defining that.

And before you start I will AGAIN explain that their dancing WAS a showcase of MJ moves, WAS a showcase of some difficult aerial moves, WAS a showcase of synchronized partner dancing, WAS a showcase of beautifully danced and technically challenging choreography....

If all you got is that they wore costumes, had props and had a narrative then you just know I'm not going to accept that, because these just served to enhance what they did - in fact they helped to 'display their dancing to the best effect' (see below).

Phil and Alex fulfilled ALL the criteria that the rules set out - so you can all it whatever you like. At the end of the day they entered a competition, and created a routine that was Creative, Technically demanding, Beautifully danced, Synchronized to perfection and that was entertaining in a way that engaged the audience.
In fact, exactly what the definition of 'Showcase' is:

'A performance or exhibit highlighting the work of a performer or group of performers'

'To display prominently, especially to advantage' '

...a setting in which something can be displayed to best effect'

Aren't we all bored of this now?

[Spin dryer]

I started this thread because I was interested to see whether anyone else shared my view that there was a tension between the judges' decision and the punters' view. That's all it was; no more and no less. It's good of Rocky to have given us an insight into the way the judging went.

The debate has thrown up some interesting side issues, such as whether there should be audience participation in decisions. I fully accept that that might sometimes lead to objectively unfair results. On the other hand, I think it would make great entertainment, and surely the competitors would love the idea of playing up to the crowd?

[Yogi_Bear]

I was not there but have seen Phil and Alex's routine before. I've seen enough of Amir and Cat - plus Alec's photos and people's comments - to have a fair idea of how they danced on Sunday.

What it amounts to, for me, is this: there is one routine which, although technically excellent, does not make me wish I could emulate it. I may well applaud it quite a lot. There is a second routine which is equally technically precise and makes me wish I could dance that well - it probably moves me as well. I may not applaud it quite so much because that doesn't seem appropriate, more than likely I'm still affected by the intimacy and beauty of the movements. Of course, I far prefer the second of the two.

And I still think it's (at the extremes) about entertainment as opposed to inspiration. You can't really have both at the same time.

[ducasi]

... surely the competitors would love the idea of playing up to the crowd?

No. Dancing for the judges is hard enough. And at least the judges will try to be objective.

[Raul]

What it amounts to, for me, is this: there is one routine which, although technically excellent, does not make me wish I could emulate it. I may well applaud it quite a lot. There is a second routine which is equally technically precise and makes me wish I could dance that well - it probably moves me as well. I may not applaud it quite so much because that doesn't seem appropriate, more than likely I'm still affected by the intimacy and beauty of the movements. Of course, I far prefer the second of the two.

And I still think it's (at the extremes) about entertainment as opposed to inspiration. You can't really have both at the same time.

I think that you have expressed the reasons that have moved SpinDryer to start this post and numerous other people to comment on the results or their personal preference.

Rocky has explained very succinctly why Mary Poppins met the judging criteria better and won. Others have also commented about Mary Poppins winning other similar competitions and about Amir and Cat not doing so.

So the moral of the story would appear to be -
If you want to be entertained, go to see the Champs or other competitions. But you want to be inspired, if you dream of dancing like you have never danced before and reaching the stars, if dancing is a personal journey of discovery to reach the infinite - do NOT go near these places. Inspiration is NOT on the Judges list (Musicality, Technical difficulty, Creativity, Dance Ability, Presentation).

"So you were deeply moved, you were speechless, you thought that an angel had flown down and kissed you on the cheek". Sorry, not on the list!
and what about you? "Oh you were bored witless". Not on the list either!

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