Jive Masters Final - Walthamstow this Saturday!

[Graham]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
Not everyone is me of course (lucky them ).

Lucky ALL of us!

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Graham
Lucky ALL of us!

Here I am, brain the size of a planet*, staying on topic, raising some valid points and what do i get ?





* small, and thats a quote - tell 'em Beowulf

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Franck
Does it? Not arguing with you about the value of musical interpretation, as I personally would rather focus on that myself, rather than aerials / flashy drops etc... but I'm not sure you can say it makes it more watchable! Clearly the audience preferred watching the big moves, well interpreted etc... even when Amir was dancing, he got cheers for the aerials / lifts rather than a subtle change of footwork to match the music. I always thought that musicality when dancing (and generally dancing Ceroc / MJ) is more about how you feel when dancing and how much your partner enjoys the dance... Musicality has little sway in spectator competitions unless you can do big flashy moves musically
Which I thought Robert and Nicky did pretty well!
Franck.

The dancing fits the music in shows like Grease, Cats etc and that makes them look good. If it didn't fit the music the show would not be as good in my opinion. If the dancers just came on and did acrobatics to the beat it would be inappropriate.

Maybe Franck saw something on Saturday that I didn't. Nicky and Robert did big flashy moves very, very well. But I didn't see their moves as fitting the music at all. Hopefully we'll see that when the video comes out - unless the beat's completely off the action like the Blackpool video

Originally posted by Franck
No, we change the music because we would be bored dancing to the same music week in week out, a bit like going to a Salsa club Franck.

Agree 100%, I've always said that the first track at Salsa has a fantastic carnival feel to it that makes you want to get up and dance - then you can't believe your luck, the next track is just like it! Unfortunately, so are the next 20 tracks

Originally posted by Franck
This puzzled me slightly and had to read it several times, but still can't make sense of it... I doubt that the audience would have voted for an architect's drawing rather than a work of art on the night, it might not be your kind of art, but artistic it was nevertheless Franck.

Nicky and Roberts dancing was artistic just like a good architects building has that feature. But I thought there was also a mechanical element to their dancing, just like they'd written a list of the order the moves would come in and gone out and gone through the list. Don't get me wrong, I had them 3rd and it was a close thing between the top 3 couples.

Originally posted by David Franklin
I wasn't there for the final, but I did judge the heat with Nicky/Robert against Simon/Taina & Graham/Sarah. On the particular details of the judging, there were 4 criteria:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Presentation, Music Interpretation, Technique and Complexity of the Moves.
(Taken from the website - don't remember if the scoring cards said something different).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As musical interpretation only carries 25% of the marks, I ended up with Nicky/Robert top in their heat, not because I prefered their performance, but because they were very strong in the other 3 areas. My actual "choice" would have been Simon, but that wasn't how the numbers added up, and I wasn't going to fiddle the numbers to get the "right result".

I'm not sure what the best way to mark "musical interpretation" is. I see it as really fundamental to dancing at the highest level, but I also feel that it makes Technique and Complexity of the Moves harder. If it's only 25% of the marks, maybe you gain more marks by ignoring it and getting in more flash moves even in they don't fit the music. (Though good musical interpretation probably improves your Presentation score).

Dave

I suppose that I coloured my judgement of the other 3 areas and, for example, marked lower if the move was not presented in what I thought was the right place in the music. What you're really saying Dave is that the judging method suited the Australians better than the locals. Particularly as the method had you making winners of a couple you don't think should have won! Maybe we should pay more attention to the judging method when we dance in competitions

[Minnie M]

Any ideas any one of who WE think should enter next year - also can the current competitors re-enter ??

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Minnie M
also can the current competitors re-enter ??

I didnt think anyone entered, they were simply asked if they wanted to talk part, and if theyre still the best they'll no doubt be asked again .

[Minnie M]

Shame Sophie didn't make the heat, I think her partner (Seamus) was poorly - she would have definitely got through and it would have been very interesting to watch :sorry

[Minnie M]

My apologies - yes you are right. the competition is by Invitation - but you could ask Nigel if you can have an invite (I think)

[Boomer]

Hmmmm DS in the comp...a dance AND a symposium like it – if he won..could you just picture the acceptance speech!?!

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Minnie M
My apologies - yes you are right. the competition is by Invitation - but you could ask Nigel if you can have an invite (I think)

I tried that for Popeye and Olive - he laughed

He told me Nina had said she didn't want to enter. I replied that what Nina probably meant was that she didn't want to enter with him

Although when prompted he said that the competition was full - so I was left with my dignity

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Boomer
Hmmmm DS in the comp...a dance AND a symposium like it – if he won..could you just picture the acceptance speech!?!

Id be speechless if i was asked to enter, so the chances of me being able to say anything if i won is laughable .

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Although when prompted he said that the competition was full - so I was left with my dignity

Hey, ill enter with you Andy! I have no need of my dignity

[Franck]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
The dancing fits the music in shows like Grease, Cats etc and that makes them look good. If it didn't fit the music the show would not be as good in my opinion. If the dancers just came on and did acrobatics to the beat it would be inappropriate.

Yeah, but this is highly choreographed, and perfect for a show like that, though I bet people still remember the 'show-off' moves and aerials more than the subtle quality of the choreography...
I am sure we *did* see different things on Saturday, as did everyone else... depending where you were sitting (shame you didn't say hi by the way )
, and crucially how you hear the music... we all hear different things too, and what seems obvious to us, isn't to many other people! This is why we all voted differently, and indeed why most people dance differently, which is a great thing IMO!

But I thought there was also a mechanical element to their dancing, just like they'd written a list of the order the moves would come in and gone out and gone through the list.

I really didn't see that, but when you choreograph and perform as many routines as Nicky and Robert do, you are bound to have 'mini-routines' coming back to you as you dance, whether you plan it or not.

Franck.

[Lounge Lizard]

Originally posted by Minnie M
Any ideas any one of who WE think should enter next year - also can the current competitors re-enter ??

I was not there, but following this debate and the results in Ceroc's two major competitions this year the criteria for winning appears as follows.
Dance moves that are not taught at any Ceroc venue (unless it is a specialist workshop)
Dance moves that are not allowed on any social dance floor.
Dance moves that are probably not known by 90% of ceroc teachers.

I personally do not like competitions where the dancers are obviously 'showing off' to the judges, I prefer couples that dance together and focus on each other.

Will Ceroc now teach and encourage these big moves at their regular classes in order for their own dancers to practice and win next year, I doubt it, so does this not put our own dancers at a disadvantage?

Don't get me wrong I love big moves, anyone that knows me will understand that, but is it a dance or acrobatics competition?

Peter

[Minnie M]

Hi LL - I think your points are VERY valid.

I thought it was supposed to be freestyle, thus showing us why they are called JIVE MASTERS, anyone (given enough time) could do a showcase/cabaret, which in my opinion what Nicky & Robert were doing.

If that is the case then we need a Nina to choreograph a routine

- are we all repeating ourselves ??? Come on guys who for JM2004 ???

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Franck
(shame you didn't say hi by the way )

I did make a few attempts to get across the floor but I kept being grabbed At one point I even had to tell Nina I'd catch her later as I was already taken - I was a bit worried she'd never talk to me again

[cerocmetro]

Originally posted by Minnie M
- are we all repeating ourselves ??? Come on guys who for JM2004 ???

Ah, 2004. I would like to clarify entry criteria. You have won or been highly placed in a dance competition. You are a teacher or professional dancer. You are a dancer with "WOW" factor. The latter need to make themselves known to us.

There are many many great dancers out there who have never competed. We will consider you. You will be disadvantaged. the reason we were primanly looking for previous entrants and pros is that dancing in a competition is not like dancing in front of your mates. There is competiton technique. There was not one of the competitors who were not nervous or even scared out of their wits. I would personally say and I know this might cause a stir, that NONE of the competitors danced as well as they could. So to look as great as they did, you need to be pretty amazing to start with which is why I think the standard on Saturday was so incredibly high.


Let me put this to you. If we were to run regional heats and I am not saying we will so don't quote me, who would be interested. You do not need to say openly, but please let me know by PM or email. ceroc@hotmail.com

The most important thing of course is to know what you are up against and for that. BUY THE VIDEO. ooh sound like NH there, watching you!!

Adam

[Bill]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
And as every other couple in the final showed much more musicality than the Australians I get the message the majority of the audience weren't marking in the same way as me or Sheepman or many other Forumites

On a whole new level, I suppose we're also asking if we should learn to dance like the Australians or keep on plugging away trying to dance like Nigel, Amir, both Simons, and Co.? Personally, I won't be able to do either but it's always easier to improve if you have something specific to aim for. Maybe in another life I'll be Nigel - although I'd do it without the hats

Personally I'd always go for musicality and I'll come back as Nigel - with or without the hats

However, it's not just the JM audience that can ignore musicality ( if of course they did ). I've been to several comps now and seen couples going through to finals despite the fact that they were missing beats, breaks and clearly doing a 'routine'. In at least one case it was a very well known couple and for some of the track they actually looked pretty bored. Yet they still went through.

I'd rather watch a Nigel or a Viktor playing with the music and the tempo than someone throwing their partner around and doing aerials but there's no doubt a few 'big' moves and a couple of aerials will get more attention - and that, from what I've heard is what you need to do to be successful in comps. Big moves and smile at the judges ( oh, and some degree of ability as well ).

[Grant]

Originally posted by Bill
Big moves and smile at the judges ( oh, and some degree of ability as well ).

and have an attractive partner
but i see you already know that

grant

[Bill]

Originally posted by Grant
and have an attractive partner
but i see you already know that

grant

it certainly helps ................. we just both have to learn to smile and look as if we're actually enjoying the experience

better tell Fran to read this

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
I personally do not like competitions where the dancers are obviously 'showing off' to the judges, I prefer couples that dance together and focus on each other.

I love showing off, that's why I do competitions. But I don't go to show off to the judges - there's hardly any of them and that's all about the winning bit of the competition. I go to show off to the audience, there's over a thousand of them

That's why the Jive Masters is great. The people you want to show off to are also the judges.

All we need to do now is fix the judging method so I can win. How about the following criteria;

Musicality
Sillyness
Cross-dressing talent
Musicality

I'd have a chance then