Jive Masters Final - Walthamstow this Saturday!

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by cerocmetro
Accept the result. It just goes to show that we all have our own criteria.

Hey no need to get all defensive on this, Robert and Nicky were worthy winners. But wasn't part of the object of the whole thing to educate the punters about how difficult judging is. Surely part of that education involves debate on why one couple is favoured over another. (Surely, if time allows, the professional judges discuss reasons for their scoring? In some cases, final results have been after debating amongst the judges, rather than purely on written down scores.)

I've already admitted I'm biased, even if I'm trying to be wholly objective, that bias will at the very least tend to mean I will be more focused on a couple I favour, and seeing if I can justify why I favour them in what they do. It is impossible to fully watch even 3 couples properly, inevitably one couple are likely to be "discounted" early on, so it's likely that you will miss something special that they do later. This problem is multiplied with more couples on the floor.

So I've been wanting to know what people saw in that performance of Nicky and Robert's in the semis that I either missed, or discounted, and so far I'm disappointed that no one has come up with anything.

Originally posted by cerocmetro
I wish I could share my phone with you all and my emails. Simon Selmon should have won, Ben & Holly should have won, Amir & Tas should have won,

I've never said Chris and Simon should have won, just that I felt they were a lot better than at least 2 of the other finalists. Competing in the toughest heat of the lot (IMHO) was just a matter of bad luck, but I thought all that debate we had on scoring methods and seeding was intended to cut out some of the reliance on luck that is inevitable in all competitions.

Greg

[cerocmetro]

Originally posted by Minnie M
....I think we are all forgetting Mandy ! YES without her great administration you would all still be standing in queue trying to get in. The entry and registration went so smoothly, and we all took it for granted

Hi Minnie, Welcome to the forum

Mandy being her usual modest self, was very flattered by your kind comments.

She is currently hanging by her toes trying to fight the inevitable.

I agree, I might have had the idea for the competition, but the reality was me idea end of story, Mandy actually makes things happen. Mandy is very much the brains behind CerocMetro and the beauty, I am just loud. Sadly due to one reason or another, Mandy has not been in the front line since she taught a workshop with me in Aberdeen. She is herself a fabulous dancer having been a former winner of the Australasian champs. (she's kiwi).

We are looking forward to her dancing again very soon and hope very much to come and enjoy the great dancing up in Scotland, together for a change.

Thanks again and we will let you know when "mini me" or Mini her" arrives



Adam

[Neil]

Well, I’ve finally recovered sufficiently from the exertions of the weekend to post my reflections on the Jive Masters finals. And wow, what a fantastic night it was! A big thank you to Adam, Nigel, Mandy & everyone else involved in organising it.

From my perspective (as a social dancer with no experience of competing, let alone judging) the standard of dancing was incredibly high. Franck & Lorna and Brady & Sheena danced brilliantly and did Scotland proud. TheTramp and Debster were awesome and, in my humble opinion, very unlucky not to make it to the final. As far as the judging in general was concerned, well, at least it was a thoroughly democratic process, so fair enough. For what it’s worth, I had Nicky & Robert in second place, but credit to them for recognising that the way to win over the crowd was to pack in a lot of big moves, which they executed brilliantly.

But for me the highlight of the evening was getting to meet, and in some cases dance with, the Forum members there: Sheena, Lorna and all the other lovely Scottish ladies , our glorious leader Franck (quel mec sympa!), Brady and, of course, Forum legend TheTramp.

And, amidst the excitement of meeting all these new friends, I also got to dance with my No. 1 all-time favourite dance partner, the gorgeous Rachel!

The only downside for me was that I didn’t get to meet some of the other Forumites who were there . It would have been great to say hello to Andy McGregor, Sheepman etc. and I would love to have danced with Pammy (with or without toilet roll). Ah well, another time maybe...

Roll on the Aberdeen beach party!



Neil

[Bill]

Originally posted by Sheepman

I've already admitted I'm biased, even if I'm trying to be wholly objective, that bias will at the very least tend to mean I will be more focused on a couple I favour, and seeing if I can justify why I favour them in what they do. It is impossible to fully watch even 3 couples properly, inevitably one couple are likely to be "discounted" early on, so it's likely that you will miss something special that they do later. This problem is multiplied with more couples on the floor.

Greg

and so we return to the 'discussion' we've had on several threads over the last year or two

Given the personal bias we have for those we know and enjoy watching what the audience result has proved is that we have our own preferences.

What you say about watching a few couples is absolutely true and many folk have indicated that in a heat when there are 6 - 8 couples a judge will 'see' each one for only a few seconds so there is always some luck involved.

Judges are just as prone as the rest of us and will do exactly as you did ie look for a couple and quickly jusitfy why they should go through then move on to see who else will join them. A know face or reputation is worth a few marks even before the music starts

But to know why people voted the way they did we need a few more of the audience to say.................although as someone already said on this thread - why should they have to justify their decision ? Most folk obviously found Robert and Niki's 'routine' better than the rest. Isn't that good enough ?

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Neil
...Forum legend TheTramp.
Neil

[jiveclone]

Originally posted by Sheena
However I hope we didn't disturb you too much - we're a friendly bunch - even if we were a little hyper at the time

No - I was not disturbed. I don't spend much time sitting down anyway, most of the time I was dancing.

Thanks - see you another time - Northwich, Musselburgh, Beach Ballroom, Blackpool?

I don't often venture into the frozen north.
Maybe I will get as far as Blackpool next year.

I usually keep to the London area, plus BeachBoogie and the JiveTime weekends in Camber Sands and Bognor.

[Minnie M]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor

[Heather]

I have been reading this thread with interest and some amusement. Oh how hot under the collar some people seem to be getting because their particular"favourite" dance couple did not win, despite their expectations!!!
I should imagine the tory voters felt much the same at the last general election, or further back in time, the labour voters when the tories came to power.
The supporters of Gareth were up in arms when Will won Pop Idol and complained of vote rigging, as the phone lines were overloaded.
Nicky and Robert won fair and squarely by the vote count on the night. Anyone could have gone up on stage at anytime and observed the votes being counted in full view of the audience.Perhaps a couple of independant scrutineers would be an idea for future competitions.
If the Scots were as biased in our opinionas some of the so called 'expert' pundits appear to be, then pity help you if the competition final were ever to be held in Scotland!! (of course the Scots are well known to be scrupulously fair ) As it was there were only four of us eligible to vote for our 'favourites',on the night, perhaps we should have had 'proportional representation'.
It is a credit to the audience that they were as unbiased as they were. They appeared to have voted, as I did, for the couple who entertained the crowd and put on a great floorshow. Sorry all you 'experts' out there who are technically minded - so what if some couples did not 'hit the breaks', is there some unwritten law that says you have to play musical statues to every record?
Quite honestly, it is a matter of personal taste, what is pleasing to some people is not so to others. I love Placido Domingo's voice but am not a fan of Pavarotti, both have wonderful, technically brilliant, tenor voices but I respect the right of anyone to differ as to their preference.
Not knowing any of the dancers involved, their reputations, dance styles expertise or otherwise ( apart from the Scots), I voted purely on what appealed to me and I thought Nicky and Robert were fabulous and thoroughly deserved to win - Yes I voted for them and as the result showed so did lots of others - the SILENT MAJORITY!!!
Adam, you and Mandy organised a terrific event, which I thoroughly enjoyed( despite it finishing at 1am),all credit to you.
I suspect you knew it would be controversial, the world is full of people who think their opinion is better/ more important/ more valid/ more expert than others.
Everyone taking part in the competition was brilliant in their own way, but the voters have spoken.
It's tough for some egos , but 'Hey - Get over it!!!'
That's democracy!!!


Heather,
XX

[Minnie M]

Originally posted by Minnie M

sorry about that - I seemed to have the same sense of humour as Andy !

[Minnie M]

Joking apart - there are some very very good dancers (jivers) all over the country (and world) and this competition showed us but a few - I for one can't wait for next year - you never know we might have 5 times world champion Robert Cordoba entering - nice to see how the vote would go then.

Besides all the comments - we all agree it was a really really great night, and I haven't heard one comment against that. It was great to have a chance to dance with some of the best (thanks for the dance Franck). And did you notice what a great atmosphere

For me and many more I am sure - Roll on Jive Masters 2004 - even though the heats are a long way from Brighton I even managed a couple, and they were great too !

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Heather
I have been reading this thread with interest and some amusement. Oh how hot under the collar some people seem to be getting because their particular"favourite" dance couple did not win, despite their expectations!!!

This is the post-competition debate. People have differing opinions about what make a dancer 'great'. And what we're doing is debating that. There will always be people who disagree with the judges and there will always be judges who disagree with each others decisions. It's healthy for us to debate this in an open fashion. Nobody has said that there was anything dodgy about the entering of the data or that it was fixed.

The major difference we're having is about musicality, which is more than just hitting the breaks. It's about interpereting the music. Sometimes it's even about interpreting a particular instrument in a particular phrase in the music. Rarely is it about playing statues if it's done the way I think it should be - the last thing we should see is the whole dance floor suddenly freeze in a break. But, to my mind, it increases the drama of the dance if the breaks are hit in one way or another. And it makes the dance much more watchable if it is in tune with the phrasing of the music - big in the big bits, smooth in the smooth bits, skippy in the skippy bits, etc. Then there's the style of the music to think about too. Some music asks you to be sexy (I can't do sexy so I go for camp) or serious or happy or silly (that's me!) or or some other mood. If we're not going to interpret the massive variety of modern jiveable tracks differently we might as well play the same Kylie track at different speeds all night. We don't do that because we dance to each track differently depending on the music - and the central core of my argument is that the winners of the Jive Masters competition would have danced exactly the same to any track that was played. They did what they did brilliantly with precision and accuracy - but to me it was more like an architects drawing than a work of art.

And as every other couple in the final showed much more musicality than the Australians I get the message the majority of the audience weren't marking in the same way as me or Sheepman or many other Forumites - which might make us question our own judgement. So we're asking those who judged differently from us to question their judging criteria too

On a whole new level, I suppose we're also asking if we should learn to dance like the Australians or keep on plugging away trying to dance like Nigel, Amir, both Simons, and Co.? Personally, I won't be able to do either but it's always easier to improve if you have something specific to aim for. Maybe in another life I'll be Nigel - although I'd do it without the hats

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by Heather
They appeared to have voted, as I did, for the couple who entertained the crowd and put on a great floorshow.
and
I voted purely on what appealed to me and I thought Nicky and Robert were fabulous and thoroughly deserved to win.

Thank you! The silent majority has a voice!

Originally posted by Heather
Sorry all you 'experts' out there who are technically minded - so what if some couples did not 'hit the breaks', is there some unwritten law that says you have to play musical statues to every record?

Musicality is soooo much more than breaks, but I see Andy has snuck in ahead of me with more detail, I'll just add that I didn't spot Amir playing musical statues even once. (Not that I'm saying there's anything wrong with doing the musical statues to a degree, at least it's a start down the musicality adventure. Nicky and Robert certainly spotted most of the breaks as far as I could tell.)

Originally posted by Heather
I have been reading this thread with interest and some amusement. Oh how hot under the collar some people seem to be getting because their particular"favourite" dance couple did not win, despite their expectations!!!

Hmmm - are you thinking kebab here? Or is this directed at someone else. I've certainly not got hot under the collar over this, just trying to make a point, mostly about scoring methods. And trying to find someone to explain why they voted with the majority. I may have had favourites, but I would have needed smelling salts if they had won! My expectation was that Nicky and Robert would win, the moment I saw them step onto the floor. I was amazed at how close the competition ran them.

Greg

[Neil]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Maybe in another life I'll be Nigel

Maybe in another life you'll be Nina...

[Chris]

Originally posted by Neil
Maybe in another life you'll be Nina...

but then you might be stuck with dancing with yourself
:sorry :sorry

Can I go for Isadora Duncan please? - at least most people she knew are dead now

Or some unknown that everybody loves dancing with ...

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Neil
Maybe in another life you'll be Nina...

If I was Nina I'd wear more dresses/skirts to show off my fantastic legs, but otherwise I wouldn't change a thing

[Franck]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
And it makes the dance much more watchable if it is in tune with the phrasing of the music -

Does it? Not arguing with you about the value of musical interpretation, as I personally would rather focus on that myself, rather than aerials / flashy drops etc... but I'm not sure you can say it makes it more watchable! Clearly the audience preferred watching the big moves, well interpreted etc... even when Amir was dancing, he got cheers for the aerials / lifts rather than a subtle change of footwork to match the music. I always thought that musicality when dancing (and generally dancing Ceroc / MJ) is more about how you feel when dancing and how much your partner enjoys the dance... Musicality has little sway in spectator competitions unless you can do big flashy moves musically
Which I thought Robert and Nicky did pretty well!

If we're not going to interpret the massive variety of modern jiveable tracks differently we might as well play the same Kylie track at different speeds all night. We don't do that because we dance to each track differently depending on the music - and the central core of my argument is that the winners of the Jive Masters competition would have danced exactly the same to any track that was played.

No, we change the music because we would be bored dancing to the same music week in week out, a bit like going to a Salsa club
Most people change their style of dancing depending on the music played, but it doesn't always show they feel different, lead differently, and their partners might notice but to anyone watching, they might appear to be doing the same moves... Not everyone has to be, can be or wants to be as expressive as Amir / Nigel etc...

They did what they did brilliantly with precision and accuracy - but to me it was more like an architects drawing than a work of art.

This puzzled me slightly and had to read it several times, but still can't make sense of it... I doubt that the audience would have voted for an architect's drawing rather than a work of art on the night, it might not be your kind of art, but artistic it was nevertheless
The whole argument is far too subjective to be resolved really!

On a whole new level, I suppose we're also asking if we should learn to dance like the Australians or keep on plugging away trying to dance like Nigel, Amir, both Simons, and Co.?

Definitely neither... everyone has a a style or 5 that suit them, or that they like and they should go down that direction. The moment we start saying that style is the 'best' we will kill Modern Jive as effectively as Ballroom was years ago... My guess is that future Jivemasters will be very different from any of the current top dancers, and just as well!

Franck.

[David Franklin]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
And as every other couple in the final showed much more musicality than the Australians I get the message the majority of the audience weren't marking in the same way as me or Sheepman or many other Forumites - which might make us question our own judgement. So we're asking those who judged differently from us to question their judging criteria too

I wasn't there for the final, but I did judge the heat with Nicky/Robert against Simon/Taina & Graham/Sarah. On the particular details of the judging, there were 4 criteria:

Presentation, Music Interpretation, Technique and Complexity of the Moves.
(Taken from the website - don't remember if the scoring cards said something different).

As musical interpretation only carries 25% of the marks, I ended up with Nicky/Robert top in their heat, not because I prefered their performance, but because they were very strong in the other 3 areas. My actual "choice" would have been Simon, but that wasn't how the numbers added up, and I wasn't going to fiddle the numbers to get the "right result".

I'm not sure what the best way to mark "musical interpretation" is. I see it as really fundamental to dancing at the highest level, but I also feel that it makes Technique and Complexity of the Moves harder. If it's only 25% of the marks, maybe you gain more marks by ignoring it and getting in more flash moves even in they don't fit the music. (Though good musical interpretation probably improves your Presentation score).

Dave

[David Franklin]

Originally posted by Franck
Clearly the audience preferred watching the big moves, well interpreted etc... even when Amir was dancing, he got cheers for the aerials / lifts rather than a subtle change of footwork to match the music.

It sounds paradoxical, but often what gets most applause and what people like most aren't the same thing. For example, the bow at the end of a performance gets a lot of applause - so the audience must really like bowing, right? Actually, it's a place where the audience can tell they're supposed to applaud, so they do!

Lifts are a bit like this - you do the lift, and it's really obvious that it's a good place to clap. Start some nifty footwork, and it's much harder to know whether to applaud or whether to wait and see how you continue it. And then you've finished the footwork, and it's too late, and... silence...

And often applause is partly a release of tension. David/Lily have said to me how they often get more applause for something at the end of the lift than the lift - and I explained "well, that's when we feel we can breath again!".

Dave

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally proclaimed by Andy McGregor
The major difference we're having is about musicality, which is more than just hitting the breaks.

The thing about the Jivemasters is that you vote in 4 catagories. Musical Interpretation is only one of them. Because of that its always likely to be close - if one couple is great at musical interpretation it may well follow that theyre not doing the really complicated moves and vice versa. For the Scottish Heat for example Franck and Lorna were by far the best for Musical Interpretation but didnt do any really advanced moves whereas the other couples did, as a result i personally had Sheena and Brady as first but when all 4 catagories were considered theres was a 1 or 2 point difference. It also stands to reason that actually interpreting what each of the 4 catagories means to you as a voter will differ massively between each person, especially as the intermediate/advanced dancers are quite likely to be in the minority (as they are more likely to have a similar outlook on what the catagories mean i assume). Does it matter though? Jivemasters allowed the audience to judge, it was different and by all accounts exciting to watch. Im looking forward to watching the video so i can shout at the injustice of it all myself .

Originally uttered by Andy McGregor

Maybe in another life I'll be Nigel - although I'd do it without the hats

You CAN'T be Nigel without the hats, you'd be a shadow of Nigel or at the least some sort of weird simulacrum.

words of wisdom by Franck

The whole argument is far too subjective to be resolved really!

Indeed, and thats what this forum is for - long live subjective opinion. As obi-wan once said 'what i said to you was true, from a certain point of view'. Reality is entirely subjective, thats why i dont get upset by life .

All subjective arguments are resolved into clear cut black and white, true false definitive answers...but only subjectively. And you can quote me on that .

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by David Franklin

As musical interpretation only carries 25% of the marks, I ended up with Nicky/Robert top in their heat, not because I prefered their performance, but because they were very strong in the other 3 areas. My actual "choice" would have been Simon, but that wasn't how the numbers added up, and I wasn't going to fiddle the numbers to get the "right result".

Good points, i find im fairly impartial too - when my instructions are 'vote in these 4 catagories' i tend to stick to it and not be biased. Not every one is me of course (lucky them ). You reinforce what i said above though - with 4 catagories to vote in, its down to interpretation of the catagories. Thats the way jivemasters is organised now, maybe in the future Adam may consider a simply 'mark X for best dancers' type of voting form - thus taking away the feeble attempt to pretend we're capable of being proper dance judges