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Thread: Ceroc Domination Part IV

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    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc Domination Part IV

    People come to dancing for different reasons, many leave, some come back but many never do. MJ barely scratches the surface of the adult population and that's partly because people of different generations have different triggers.

    Most people just don't think about partner dancing (certainly this is true of men) until something triggers that thought process - it might be a dance at a wedding, an advert like the Gap advert (as it was in Val's case), or some of the recent TV programs. The latter two are the most effective because to get people to think about dancing it needs to be something that's in their face on a consistent basis. Whatever it is, what we know is that partner dancing is still not main stream enough for the general public to pick up on it - and when they do, most think it's something they would find difficult to do.

    The other major trigger is a life change, like a major relationship upheaval - so maybe there should be MJ brochures in every marriage guidance office? (Hmmm.....)

    The market is not saturated because the potential is enormous. If MJ had more exposure, say in.... (actually, there is a ton of work going into this at the moment, and I'm not going to spill the beans here...) then figures would increase more quickly. As it is, figures ARE rising but even though Ceroc brought 30,000 new people through the doors of venues all over the Country last year, this is set against low retention rates - so two steps forward one and half steps back.

    As regards retention rates, the reasons for fall off rates are actually quite straightforward. Top is work schedule changes, 2nd is baby sitter availability and relationship issues, 3rd is traveling time and distance and combined with all that is the need to generally go with a friend. This latter point is the killer because it doubles up points 1-3, which means that all these bits have to line up for 2 or 3 people now instead of the one. Some people do come on their own, but for the majority who tail off it's the 'friend and factors' issue 'squared' that's the main barrier. Maybe we could express it as a equation? MJ=(W+BS+R+T)F² - I'm only joking, don't know the first thing about equations and I'm sure that's wrong...but you see what I mean. There are a number of other key issues, but I'm not going to give the whole game away!

    As for PR and advertising, again I'm not going to say too much about it, but Ceroc are incredibly successful at getting press coverage against what they can actually afford to spend (and they spent £90,000 last year). But you have to remember that with over 130 venues that spend takes time to work it's way around. Ultimately of course it's down to the franchisees to make the most of their venues and many do busk frequently and interact with their customers - it's just that they operate in a market that has a high attrition rate.

    Based on the above you can see why some companies prefer other people to do the work and to just cherry pick when they feel like it - which is why I've been known to have a go occasionally.... The reality is this business is hard work and that isn't going to change any day soon. Yet despite knowing this, companies like Ceroc still do put that work in - and it isn't for a big financial reward either....

    On this basis we should ALL take time to regularly thank those brave and inspiring venue owners (from all organizations), teachers, taxi dancers, Djs and crew who work to make our love of dance possible. I would suggest that this would accomplish more and be far more productive for everyone concerned than simply bitching about the smallest issues at every opportunity.

    P.S - Isn't it just lovely to see Gus using a spell checker these days?

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    Re: Ceroc Domination Part IV

    Quote Originally Posted by Tessalicious View Post
    He's not talking about England. I know a lot of teachers who do dance with their students (a few that don't too).
    I have been to quite a few Ceroc nights. In the last couple of years I've only once seen the teacher work the floor and pick out beginners for a dance. In every other case what I've seen is the Ceroc teacher chat with the DJ or dance with his/her mates and fans. On one occasion I saw the Ceroc teacher finish the lesson, take off his mike, walk into the car park and drive away!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tessalicious View Post
    Do you keep track of how well it works by asking people who come through the door where they heard about it?
    We do this basic research. When we first started the answer was most commonly 'advertisement' or 'leaflet'. Now that we're a bit better established the most common answer is 'a friend'.

    On the subject of "Ceroc Domination", I think this drive has been stepped up in the last few months. We've seen Ceroc set up in new-to-Ceroc areas. I was talking with Nelson about this over the weekend. We've both enjoyed Ceroc free zones. This is no longer the case. I think that Ceroc are filling in the gaps and are now coming to the seaside - until recently there weren't many coastal Ceroc venues, I was guessing that orange doesn't look good with Seagull poo on it

    IMHO Ceroc are very good at getting people through the door. They have a great deal of experience and must know what works and what is a waste of time/money. This is a very good reason to become a Ceroc franchise holder. Us non-Ceroc organisers have to start from scratch in terms of our marketing and it's an expensive exercise to work out what promotion is effective and what is not

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    Re: Ceroc Domination Part IV

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    [FONT=Verdana] On this basis we should ALL take time to regularly thank those brave and inspiring venue owners (from all organizations), teachers, taxi dancers, Djs and crew who work to make our love of dance possible. I would suggest that this would accomplish more and be far more productive for everyone concerned than simply bitching about the smallest issues at every opportunity.

    P.S - Isn't it just lovely to see Gus using a spell checker these days?
    Rocky is right about the bravery of venue owners, etc. And I think that the bitching is counter-productive. Dancers don't want to hear about it.

    On the subject of attrition rates, I think that one of the factors Rocky hasn't mentioned is product quality. We have a local organiser who is a fairly good teacher (like me, initially trained to teach by Nigel Anderson) and businessman, but he is a weak dancer (not taught to dance by Nigel) and DJ. This means that he gets a lot of people through the door and he either puts them off MJ or teaches them to dance so badly that we have to spend time fixing their bad habits when they come to us - woodface tells me that there is a similar situation in Hastings. With the standard of dance being so poor with some teachers I think that MJ needs a national standard and a syllabus for teachers. I think that Ceroc dominating the market means that this is unlikely to come about.

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    Registered User Tessalicious's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc Domination Part IV

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I have been to quite a few Ceroc nights. In the last couple of years I've only once seen the teacher work the floor and pick out beginners for a dance. In every other case what I've seen is the Ceroc teacher chat with the DJ or dance with his/her mates and fans. On one occasion I saw the Ceroc teacher finish the lesson, take off his mike, walk into the car park and drive away!
    Nevertheless, the fact of a few bad experiences is not a good reason to make sweeping generalisations that English Ceroc teachers do not dance with their students. To think of a few forumites (so you know who I'm talking about) that I have seen in action: ESG, Marc Forster, Billco, Paul F, Russell Saxby and jammy all do it. Don't tar these dedicated teachers with the brush of the few you didn't see dancing (how do you know that last example didn't have to rush off to his wife who was in labour?).

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    Re: Ceroc Domination Part IV

    Quote Originally Posted by Tessalicious View Post
    Nevertheless, the fact of a few bad experiences is not a good reason to make sweeping generalisations that English Ceroc teachers do not dance with their students. To think of a few forumites (so you know who I'm talking about) that I have seen in action: ESG, Marc Forster, Billco, Paul F, Russell Saxby and jammy all do it. Don't tar these dedicated teachers with the brush of the few you didn't see dancing (how do you know that last example didn't have to rush off to his wife who was in labour?).
    I did not make a sweeping statement. I was fairly particular, but stopped short of naming teachers and venues. I talked about my experience of the dozen or so Ceroc venues I've been to in the last couple of years - in my experience less than 10% of Ceroc teachers get out there and dance with beginners. I can't talk about venues I've not been to. The Ceroc teacher who I saw leave after the lesson was no loss - when I've seen him stay he sits behind the decks and chats with the DJ.

    To get back on-topic. Ceroc are influencing the MJ market in a way that affects us all. Therefore you could say that they are dominating the market. That they would like to dominate the market even more is in little doubt.

    What is my gripe with Ceroc? In my opinion, Ceroc in my area has little to do the quality of dance and much to do with numbers through the door. There seems to be little or no effort made to improve dance ability - and this pales to nothing compared to the efforts made to get more people in through the door. And then there's competitive behavior - in Kent this seems to be directed towards eliminating the competition using every trick in the book.

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    Re: Ceroc Domination Part IV

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    in my experience less than 10% of Ceroc teachers get out there and dance with beginners.
    Out of interest Andy, how many Ceroc teachers have you seen teach?

    To achieve a figure of 'less that 10%', you must have seen at least 11 teachers, and, out of that 11, 10 of them must have not gone out and danced with beginners.

    Now, far be it from me to question statistics, because we all know that statistics are always totally correct and valid. But that seems like a load of rubbish to me!

    I know that over the last 8 years, I've seen a hell of a lot more Ceroc teachers than you. And, I can only think of 5* that were as bad as you make out. I could maybe add a few more who weren't great at it. But the majority of Ceroc teachers I've seen, pretty much all over the country, are generally pretty good at getting out and dancing with everyone, of all standards, at the venues where they teach.

    Of course, this doesn't mean that every dance on the night in question should be with a beginner....


    *Of course, I've also seen a lot of independents in that time as well, and I'd say that it's roughly a similar percentage (whatever that might be) of those that also aren't particularly good at interacting with the people at their venues.

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    Re: Ceroc Domination Part IV

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    What is my gripe with Ceroc? In my opinion, Ceroc in my area has little to do the quality of dance and much to do with numbers through the door. There seems to be little or no effort made to improve dance ability - and this pales to nothing compared to the efforts made to get more people in through the door. And then there's competitive behavior - in Kent this seems to be directed towards eliminating the competition using every trick in the book.
    I think the problem is that the phrase 'improving dance ability' is very subjective. Some people look truly shocking when they dance, but they obviously enjoy it. Who are we to say that any particular dance style is the yardstick by which quality of dancing or teaching should be judged? Sure one can teach moves (and I'm assuming most teachers are doing this adequately?) but outside of that we have a danger of imposing our criteria on other people and I'm not sure that's the way to go. (Unless they are obviously asking for guidance and feedback)

    Of course ALL the guys would be a lot happier and pull more women if they could dance like me - and the women would be happier too if they could even get close to following a lead as well as you do Andy... but until that day....

    As for Kent, well my knowledge of the situation is clearly different to yours, because based on what I know I take the complete opposite view. But who really knows: I'm not directly involved so I have to base my view on 3rd party info (which presumably you do too?)I'm guessing maybe that the truth lies somewhere in between... these issues are never really black and white are they?

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    Re: Ceroc Domination Part IV

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    What is my gripe with Ceroc? In my opinion, Ceroc in my area has little to do the quality of dance and much to do with numbers through the door. There seems to be little or no effort made to improve dance ability - and this pales to nothing compared to the efforts made to get more people in through the door.
    Well, firstly, Ceroc is a business, so yes, their main aim is getting numbers. It's fine having 10 fantastic dancers, and no-one else. But the night isn't going to survive that long.

    Secondly, I'd suggest that improving dance ability ISN'T the main aim of Ceroc. Okie, up to a point it is - after all, it is a dance class. But, I'd suggest that the main aim of Ceroc is to provide an evening out to people, the majority of whom wouldn't dance if it wasn't for Ceroc, and aren't interested in becoming fantastic dancers, but are happy with achieving some ability to dance, while having fun, seeing their friends, etc. And, to be honest, I really don't see that there's much of a problem with that.

    Ceroc doesn't aim itself particularly at the upper end of the market, and you'd be quite right in saying that some better dancers don't necessarily get what they're looking for from a Ceroc night. On the other hand, when running a business, do you target the 10%, or the 90%?

    I do recall Ceroc starting to run advanced classes at some venues a couple of years ago. Do they still do that? Or have they stopped? I haven't seen mention of them for a while. Presumably, if they'd been successful, then Ceroc would have kept them going. So, my guess is that they didn't really work. And that's often because the 'advanced'* dancers don't go to classes, and don't think that they can learn anything...

    Speaking as a teacher, it's obvious that in classes, a lot of people aren't really there to learn. I taught one class recently, where I tried to focus on leading the move. It was quite challenging, and not many of the guys really got it during the class, so, as usual, I said that if anyone wanted to go over it after the class, I'd be more than happy to help. The only 2 people who came to try to work on improving the lead, were 2 ladies!

    And finally, out of interest, I'd like to hear the FACTS that you've observed to come to your conclusion that Ceroc isn't interested in improving the quality of dancing, and also just what you do better so as to produce better dancers.


    *That is of course, generally 'advanced' only in their own eyes!

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    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc Domination Part IV

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    Out of interest Andy, how many Ceroc teachers have you seen teach?

    To achieve a figure of 'less that 10%', you must have seen at least 11 teachers, and, out of that 11, 10 of them must have not gone out and danced with beginners.

    Now, far be it from me to question statistics, because we all know that statistics are always totally correct and valid. But that seems like a load of rubbish to me!

    I know that over the last 8 years, I've seen a hell of a lot more Ceroc teachers than you. And, I can only think of 5* that were as bad as you make out. I could maybe add a few more who weren't great at it. But the majority of Ceroc teachers I've seen, pretty much all over the country, are generally pretty good at getting out and dancing with everyone, of all standards, at the venues where they teach.

    Of course, this doesn't mean that every dance on the night in question should be with a beginner....


    *Of course, I've also seen a lot of independents in that time as well, and I'd say that it's roughly a similar percentage (whatever that might be) of those that also aren't particularly good at interacting with the people at their venues.
    Blimey... I agree with the Tramp 100%. Must sit down, must have tablets, cramps...headaches...blinding lights...AAAAAAARRRRGGGHHHH!!!!

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    Re: Ceroc Domination Part IV

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post


    The reality is this business is hard work and that isn't going to change any day soon. Yet despite knowing this, companies like Ceroc still do put that work in - and it isn't for a big financial reward either....


    On this basis we should ALL take time to regularly thank those brave and inspiring venue owners (from all organizations), teachers, taxi dancers, Djs and crew who work to make our love of dance possible. I would suggest that this would accomplish more and be far more productive for everyone concerned than simply bitching about the smallest issues at every opportunity.
    Rocky has got a point

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    Re: Ceroc Domination Part IV

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    in Kent this seems to be directed towards eliminating the competition using every trick in the book.


    think you will find there is another side to that story

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    Re: Ceroc Domination Part IV

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post


    The reality is this business is hard work and that isn't going to change any day soon. Yet despite knowing this, companies like Ceroc still do put that work in - and it isn't for a big financial reward either....


    On this basis we should ALL take time to regularly thank those brave and inspiring venue owners (from all organizations), teachers, taxi dancers, Djs and crew who work to make our love of dance possible. I would suggest that this would accomplish more and be far more productive for everyone concerned than simply bitching about the smallest issues at every opportunity.
    Rocky has made a good point ....

    however, as a mere dancer, I find that I have to read these posts with a certain amount of cynicism.

    We dancers accept that running dance organisations is hard work for little reward and we all appreciate the opportunities that we are offered for our money. Dance has added to our enjoyment in life and maybe we would not have started were it not for a particular organisation, who knows.

    I as a dancer think, in reading these posts that the biggest swipes and bitches are not from dancers, but from many of those involved in the "business". Should we thank all those concerned or only a few of the right "colours".

    In answer to a question about "what made you come back" i happenned to mention quite naively that "one Ceroc teacher dances with beginners" and that started a whole debate between the Ceroc mob and the independents. Did i say "JUST ONE" ?. On reflection i should have said "A Ceroc teacher". But there again an independent would have retorted that all teachers do that. In conclusion, bitching takes all forms.

    I appreciate that sometimes comments invite individuals to reply if they feel that they have been personally accused or wronged. But the turning of every thread into War and Peace is putting a few dancers off.

    We thank you but our respect for you could be on the wane .... Do us a favour, just do your bit and we do ours, thank you.

    .
    Last edited by Raul; 3rd-May-2007 at 12:43 PM.

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    Re: Ceroc Domination Part IV

    Quote Originally Posted by Raul View Post
    Rocky has got a point
    But it's for Vals use only!

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    Re: Ceroc Domination Part IV

    Quote Originally Posted by Raul View Post
    Snip.... good stuff...

    We thank you but our respect for you could be on the wane .... Do us a favour, just do your bit and we do ours, thank you.
    I take your point Raul, but I'm sure you appreciate that those of us on the business end experience the dance World in an entirely different way. I can understand how customers see it as an annoyance but for many teachers and organizers their dance nights make up part of their income - so they are naturally protective.

    This does lead to in-fighting and what contributes to that is that many people do it for the love, not the money. This means that they are passionate (in the most part) about what they do and because customers are notoriously transitory, have to work very hard at maintaining what business they have.

    Ceroc are easy to knock because they are the big boys, but they are rarely the aggressor - these comments about Kent for instance, as Russ says, there is another story to that....

    Those of us who experience this day in and day out are tired of how Ceroc is portrayed when all we see are hardworking, passionate individuals who are trying to run honest businesses. I'm not saying that everyone is squeaky clean, (although I personally have never seen any instances of impropriety) because when you 'employ' 100's of people it's obviously impossible to keep close tabs on everyone.

    With the greatest respect, 'your bit' involves turning up and dancing and hopefully having a good time (assuming you are not crew of some description) - 'our bit' is far more complex than that and involves very real problems that some of us can't help but vocalize. If a venue fails, as far as you are concerned it's not a big problem - sure you might be unhappy, but you can just go and dance somewhere else. If a venue fails for an organizer it can lead to £1,000's of debt and loss of face and loss of confidence.

    Yes, it does spill over into the forum and to be fair I'm mostly to blame for that - but that's just because I know what goes on and I'm fairly bad at keeping my mouth shut. Sure, I overstep the mark on occasion but I am trying to temper that approach as hopefully my last few posts have demonstrated.

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    Commercial Operator Chicky's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc Domination Part IV

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    these comments about Kent for instance, as Russ says, there is another story to that.....
    As we are the independent in Kent that people are referring to, if anyone wants to know what we have to put up with, then I'll quite happily tell people. We have nothing to hide or be ashamed of. However, we usually just go about our own business - consistently advertising, busking, leaflet dropping and attempting to keep new people to continue the flow of dancers. There's plenty of room for everyone and let's face it, dancers will go to whatever venue they like best, or live closest to.

    Nicky
    Last edited by Chicky; 3rd-May-2007 at 02:59 PM.

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    Re: Ceroc Domination Part IV

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Rocky is right about the bravery of venue owners, etc. And I think that the bitching is counter-productive. Dancers don't want to hear about it.
    But if nothing is said nothing improves. Then again there is constructive critisism and there is nit picking.
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    With the standard of dance being so poor with some teachers I think that MJ needs a national standard and a syllabus for teachers. I think that Ceroc dominating the market means that this is unlikely to come about.
    OK - I understand I have to be very careful what I say here, as you all know which area I have the most Ceroc experience of - but these comments really do reflect my experience of dancing at Ceroc and independent venues in many places in the country.

    I haven't been dancing that long, yet I have seen a HUGE difference in teachers and teaching. As you would expect I suppose. I think there is already Ceroc teacher certification to level things out, but that only levels things if the teacher IS a teacher (in some Ceroc venues this is not always the case I am led to believe). Is Ceroc teacher training like your driving test - once you are qualified that's it? Do Ceroc reassess teachers for quality at regular intervals? If so how does this work? Because I would have thought a good way would be to have a couple of dancers turn up at a venue, do the class and then actually dance with the punters and feel the quality of teaching first hand.

    Ceroc are to the UK dance scene a bit like Microsoft are to the computer world. An easy target to have a pop at because they are so big and seemingly faceless, but in truth doing a pretty damn good job on the whole. You have people like Rocky and Silver Fox pushing the boundaries and exploring new directions

    On the other hand some of the independent companies are pushing too. Take CJ's Mariachi nights for example So, not every independent is 'creaming' Ceroc's hard work. I still say that if independent companies were offering class nights they would be accused of mimicking Ceroc's ideas. It's a bit of a lose-lose situation for them

    Ohhh and finally, I have never once been to a class night where the person taking the class (and usually the demo too) have not then danced with the punters. Ceroc and independent.
    Last edited by StokeBloke; 3rd-May-2007 at 03:25 PM.

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    Re: Ceroc Domination Part IV

    Quote Originally Posted by Chicky View Post
    As we are the independent in Kent that people are referring to, if anyone wants to know what we have to put up with, then I'll quite happily tell people. We have nothing to hide or be ashamed of. However, we usually just go about our own business - consistently advertising, busking, leaflet dropping and attempting to keep new people to continue the flow of dancers. There's plenty of room for everyone and let's face it, dancers will go to whatever venue they like best, or live closest to.

    Nicky
    I wasn't particularly referring to Chicky's independent. Ceroc Kent are, in my opinion, very territorial. Not only with independents in Kent, I've also observed a situation where they took on another Ceroc Franchisee - who told me? That Franchisee told me

    I think this spoiling tactic is a very different situation from competing in business. It's about spoiling it for competition and using your size in an attempt to destroy the little guys. Putting on my marketeers hat for a moment, this kind of behavior is likely to reduce the size of the market rather than increase it. A market with healthy competition will usually increase the size of the market and the quality of the product - and it will keep the price down too

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    Re: Ceroc Domination Part IV

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    Ohhh and finally, I have never once been to a class night where the person taking the class (and usually the demo too) have not then danced with the punters. Ceroc and independent.
    You won't be able to say that if you try dancing in Horsham on a Wednesday ...


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    Re: Ceroc Domination Part IV

    Well, I could make a very long a detailed post here, but I'll just skirt around and be brief.

    First of all, in all industries, there is most likely a dominant player. It is usually that dominant player that has to spend the hard cash and educate the population. In my business life, I've worked for companies that spent millions trying to educate the target audiance for a product and get nowhere. Only when a big boy, like IBM or Microsoft comes along with their version of the idea do things take off for all concerned.

    In relation to MJ, Ceroc combats it's churn rate with a lot of cash and effort. This enables them to keep the punters coming through the door and it should be applauded.

    Independants have to do their part too and Rocky is right, it is expensive, time consuming and hard work.

    Everyone should be looking at what the competition does and raising their game. Any organisation that does not do this is a disservice to the rest of the organisations out there putting in the hours and money.

    Somewhere in the thread it was mentioned that giving beginners free passes is a way to get them hooked and through the door. I disagree and strongly believe that free entry to venues devalues the worth of the night. You cannot possibly build a loyal bases of regulars in this manner. Remove the freebies and they will be gone. It can also alienate clientel. How would you feel if you paid £8 to get into a venue and then found that half of the people there got in for free?

    I guess most of you know where my involvement in the independant sector is. Our views on teachers working the floor, the music and age groups we target are well known. However, it should be pointed out that the market is potentially huge and we decided to target a demographic currently not targeted by any other business. If any independant complains about Ceroc or other independants (it does happen) muscling in on the action, then perhaps modifying the product, improving on it and targeting a slightly different market could make a huge difference. Innovation is key here.

    I see that the cake needs to be made bigger, not sliced and diced by competing for a market share from the current market pool. Utopia is a good example of creating an evolved product, reaching out to different types of dances and growing the market. Hopefully others will see this as good competition and just get on with it.

    Right, must head to Fulham now, need a dance ;-)

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    Re: Ceroc Domination Part IV

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    You won't be able to say that if you try dancing in Horsham on a Wednesday ...

    Oh. So your 'less than 10%' is purely from going to Horsham on a Wednesday!

    Fair enough!

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