Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 85

Thread: Ceroc Domination Part IV

  1. #1
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    York
    Posts
    5,203
    Rep Power
    13

    Ceroc Domination Part IV

    OK … perennial question. Given the huge increase in dance publicity and interest over the last year or so, the increased focus of Ceroc (aka Dark Empire) in expansion, has there been a big increase in the MJ population? I don't think so. In our area a few new clubs have opened up but it seems that all they have done is spread out the existing dancers rather than bring in new dancers. New clubs at Stoke, Merseyside etc have struggled.

    Is it because there are some fundamental muggle perceptions that need to be overcome … or quite simple has Ceroc already saturated the UK market?

  2. #2
    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Pontllanfraith
    Posts
    2,261
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Ceroc Domination Part IV

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Is it because there are some fundamental muggle perceptions that need to be overcome … or quite simple has Ceroc already saturated the UK market?
    I wonder if perhaps more effort needs to be put in (by all MJ companies, not just Ceroc) as regards advertising and publicity. Within a reasonable drive from my home there are at least 6 or 7 MJ classes, but I've never seen any advertising outside of the MJ community. Undoubtedly there has been some, but not in places where I (and people like me) would see it.

    Maybe we need to look outside the assumed "catchment area" of a class and advertise more widely.

  3. #3
    B.O.G.O.F. fletch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    penkridge
    Posts
    9,298
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: Ceroc Domination Part IV

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    OK … perennial question. Given the huge increase in dance publicity and interest over the last year or so, the increased focus of Ceroc (aka Dark Empire) in expansion, has there been a big increase in the MJ population? I don't think so. In our area a few new clubs have opened up but it seems that all they have done is spread out the existing dancers rather than bring in new dancers. New clubs at Stoke, Merseyside etc have struggled.

    Is it because there are some fundamental muggle perceptions that need to be overcome … or quite simple has Ceroc already saturated the UK market?

    or not doing anything to promote it
    Last edited by David Bailey; 1st-May-2007 at 11:21 PM. Reason: quote fixing

  4. #4
    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Hove Actually
    Posts
    7,924
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: Ceroc Domination Part IV

    As much as we all moan at so many weekenders, they are certainly attracting dance virgins.


    --ooOoo--
    Age is a question of mind over matter, if you don't mind, it doesn't matter
    Leroy (Satchel) Paige (1906-1982)

    Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, Minnie, made her film debut, along with Mickey, in "Steamboat Willie" on November 18, 1928.
    That date is recognized as her official birthday.

  5. #5
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    411
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Ceroc Domination Part IV

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    As much as we all moan at so many weekenders, they are certainly attracting dance virgins.
    And how many known faces have we seen, making the effort to leave their little groups, for a while, and asking the newbies for a dance? I personally did not see many.

    Minnie has touched on a very important point. It is not so much the numbers you atrract that are so important, it is how many of those you keep.

    If the more established dancers made the effort of ensuring that each dance that they do have with a newbie is an enjoyable experience for that newbie, it is encouragement for that person to persevere. We all know that the learning period is atrocious and humiliating at times.

    One thought for the men. Do you realise that for the women who spend the whole evening waiting to be asked to dance (and most some do), the extra dance with You subconsciously could make the difference as to whether she bothers to turn up the next week or not.
    One thought for the women. The reaction of established followers to new leaders is critical. I am now dancing because a good dancer stopped me from running away and said that the 10 armjives and 10 first moves in a row were just fine. That response made me do as many workshops as i could to be able to dance, just to be able to give her a better dance.

    If the venues could hang on to just one additional newcomer every week or fortnight, think of the increase in attendance levels.

    At a non-MJ venue that i go, after the lesson, the beginners are welcome to the main group and the teacher pairs them up with better dancers for the first freestyle dance - with the instruction to use simple moves well. If anything this breaks the invisible barrier between new and "good" dancers

    One Ceroc Teacher dances with his beginners. If teachers do that and encourage the "better" dancers to do that, the numbers will increase. Nothing more thrilling for a newbie than dancing with the teacher or demonstrator, and they will tell their friends.

  6. #6
    Registered User FoxyFunkster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Aldgate London
    Posts
    490
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: Ceroc Domination Part IV

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    OK … perennial question. Given the huge increase in dance publicity and interest over the last year or so, the increased focus of Ceroc (aka Dark Empire) in expansion, has there been a big increase in the MJ population? I don't think so. In our area a few new clubs have opened up but it seems that all they have done is spread out the existing dancers rather than bring in new dancers. New clubs at Stoke, Merseyside etc have struggled.

    Is it because there are some fundamental muggle perceptions that need to be overcome … or quite simple has Ceroc already saturated the UK market?
    I certainly don`t think the market is saturated, in fact i think there is alot of scope for expansion if Ceroc and the Independents can discover the where abouts of the MJ holy grail...which is of course how do you retain beginners......i`m led to believe that Ceroc retain at best 1/10 of all beginners....i know Ceroc london are doing everything possible like having beginners days at ashtons which have been a success, but i do believe that ultimately it`s about making sure a beginners experience on their 1st few nights is memorable.....i do believe the teacher and taxis are pivotal in that process, i know that i was inspired by my first MJ teacher to want to dance well and i think people need inspiring if you want to get them to come back....

  7. #7
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    bedford
    Posts
    4,899
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: Ceroc Domination Part IV

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    ...Maybe we need to look outside the assumed "catchment area" of a class and advertise more widely.
    Maybe we should advertise more locally too. I have met too many newcomers who say "I live just down the road, and I never knew ..."

  8. #8
    Registered User SteveK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Cairns, Australia
    Posts
    365
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: Ceroc Domination Part IV

    Quote Originally Posted by Raul View Post
    One thought for the women. The reaction of established followers to new leaders is critical. I am now dancing because a good dancer stopped me from running away and said that the 10 armjives and 10 first moves in a row were just fine.


    After a nice dance with a friend last night, I was chatting with her about "dancing with beginners". Whilst she may be a "lady of a certain age", she makes sure she dances with lots of beginners of all ages. Her reason for doing this; when the beginners get better, she gets then gets asked for loads of dances by the youngsters who she helped at the beginning!

  9. #9
    Commercial Operator StokeBloke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Stoke-on-Trent
    Posts
    2,366
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Ceroc Domination Part IV

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    Maybe we should advertise more locally too. I have met too many newcomers who say "I live just down the road, and I never knew ..."
    I have never seen advertising locally for Ceroc. I have mentioned this and other ideas to the franchisee on a number of occassions, only to be told that Ceroc HQ handle promotion and they do a wonderful job thank you very much (I.E. butt out). If they do such a wonderful job, it doesn't explain why my local Ceroc venue seems to struggle to break double figures these days.

  10. #10
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Ceroc Domination Part IV

    Quote Originally Posted by Raul View Post
    One Ceroc Teacher dances with his beginners.
    Raul must be talking about England. I'm sure there's more than one in Scotland

  11. #11
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Sussex by the Sea
    Posts
    9,276
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Ceroc Domination Part IV

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    Maybe we should advertise more locally too. I have met too many newcomers who say "I live just down the road, and I never knew ..."
    I know I'm giving away trade secrets, but I can't help myself (plus, it might just mean an increase in the number of dancers). I regularly do leaflet drops in the area around my venues. This works sometimes and not other times.

  12. #12
    Registered User Tessalicious's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Kentish Town
    Posts
    1,650
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Ceroc Domination Part IV

    Quote Originally Posted by Raul View Post
    One Ceroc Teacher dances with his beginners. If teachers do that and encourage the "better" dancers to do that, the numbers will increase. Nothing more thrilling for a newbie than dancing with the teacher or demonstrator, and they will tell their friends.
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Raul must be talking about England. I'm sure there's more than one in Scotland
    He's not talking about England. I know a lot of teachers who do dance with their students (a few that don't too). Alec is great at this - he dances with absolutely as many of the people at the evening as he can, especially the first-timers, sometimes with the result that I don't get the last dance because there's someone he missed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I know I'm giving away trade secrets, but I can't help myself (plus, it might just mean an increase in the number of dancers). I regularly do leaflet drops in the area around my venues. This works sometimes and not other times.
    Another thing we do. Do you keep track of how well it works by asking people who come through the door where they heard about it? Unfortunately, leaflet drops won't work for everywhere - it has to be a residential area and the mix of locals needs to be varied enough to get interested people who aren't convinced that it'll be full of either old people or young things (whichever they're not).

    Ceroc does a lot of work on promotion, with busks becoming more frequent, better located and better timed for attracting people, and getting involved with various dance events and festivals that have been going on over the last year or so.

    IMHO, the recent dance programs might have gone slightly against Ceroc, in that people have now decided ballroom looks easy, so they'll try that, they try it and decide it's too hard and then are less persuadable that Ceroc is easy. The best marketing scheme to attract noobs is still the 'bring a friend'.

    I think it's unfair to label this thread as another 'Ceroc domination' when that's not really what Gus is asking. Do Ceroc work hardest on the new market? Yes, IMHO. Does that mean they are an evil empire who don't deserve the bits of success they get? Er... that'll be a no then.

  13. #13
    B.O.G.O.F. fletch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    penkridge
    Posts
    9,298
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: Ceroc Domination Part IV

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    One Ceroc Teacher dances with his beginners. If teachers do that and encourage the "better" dancers to do that, the numbers will increase. Nothing more thrilling for a newbie than dancing with the teacher or demonstrator, and they will tell their friends.
    it was only after joining the fourm that my franchise even acknowledge I' existed, I never even got an 'hello' let alone a dance, but then again when I joined I was a dress size 18, had dark brown hair and an 'a' line black skirt



    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I regularly do leaflet drops in the area around my venues. This works sometimes and not other times.

    when I opened my first slimming club I had to leaflet 2,000 houses I offerd to leaflet my local ceroc club at the same time, out of good will stupidly I said 'so can I come in free this week' I was told no, but if you put your name and phone number on the back off all the leaflets and someone comes in with one i'll give you £2 off, what all 2,000 of 'em unbelivalble


    yeah right

  14. #14
    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Ambrosden it gets
    Posts
    7,480
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: Ceroc Domination Part IV

    Quote Originally Posted by Raul View Post
    And how many known faces have we seen, making the effort to leave their little groups, for a while, and asking the newbies for a dance? I personally did not see many.
    For a weekender very true

    For a weekly class to be honest ,if it’s a women it depends on what the women looks like and what she wears (im referring to men generally)

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    I certainly don`t think the market is saturated, in fact i think there is alot of scope for expansion if Ceroc and the Independents can discover the where abouts of the MJ holy grail...which is of course how do you retain beginners......i`m led to believe that Ceroc retain at best 1/10 of all beginners
    Ive introduced about 15 people to ceroc as far as im aware 2 have stayed so figure maybe about right

    Haven’t a clue if one 1/10 is a good retention rate

  15. #15
    Papa Smurf
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Planet Scathe
    Posts
    12,528
    Blog Entries
    6
    Rep Power
    18

    Re: Ceroc Domination Part IV

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    For a weekly class to be honest ,if it’s a women it depends on what the women looks like and what she wears (im referring to men generally)
    I doubt that to be honest - i would say the vast majority of men will ask a female to dance if it looks like they are a good dancer unless they are just trying to pull or impress


    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    As much as we all moan at so many weekenders, they are certainly attracting dance virgins.
    Although the way some people talk you'd think all weekenders only got their customers from Ceroc and nowhere else

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Is it because there are some fundamental muggle perceptions that need to be overcome … or quite simple has Ceroc already saturated the UK market?
    Probably not saturated but without specific advertising it'll be hard to get numbers up. The most appealing things about Ceroc for most of its customers is probably the social and fitness aspects. Not forgetting the "i've always wanted to be able to dance crowd". Don't know what the ratios would be but I think for Ceroc to pull in bigger numbers it would need to do a bit of advertising to target certain people (ads proclaiming fitness benefits in a Health magazine with maybe monthly memberships fees like a gym) (ads in womans magazine emphasising the social/fitness)(ads in mens mags mentioning the "hot babes" ). Ads are expensive though and only Ceroc are likely to spend this money, as only Ceroc has the nationwide infrastructure in place to support the numbers from a nationwide campaign. Although, when people do start at non-Ceroc events its still another new person who likely will go to Ceroc nights at some point and Weekenders too, so its worth emphasising "Modern Jive". *



    * all opinions are nonsense and should be taken with a pinch of Utah

  16. #16
    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Ambrosden it gets
    Posts
    7,480
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: Ceroc Domination Part IV

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I doubt that to be honest - i would say the vast majority of men will ask a female to dance if it looks like they are a good dancer unless they are just trying to pull or impress


    * all opinions are nonsense and should be taken with a pinch of Utah
    Well id usually expect a beginner not to be the best dancer in the world ?

    Also sorry in the ‘real world’ the attractive 30yr old blonde in the tight new shorts, new to ceroc is likely to be asked to dance 8 times more frequently then the 59yr old in the long cardy who has come with her daughter for the first time

    I don’t say that’s right , that’s what happens

    On this basis the attractive people should be staying on longer , not sure if any work has been done on whether the ceroc crowd are getting more ‘attractive’

  17. #17
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Sunny South Hampshire
    Posts
    873
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Ceroc Domination Part IV

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    OK … perennial question. Given the huge increase in dance publicity and interest over the last year or so, the increased focus of Ceroc (aka Dark Empire) in expansion, has there been a big increase in the MJ population? I don't think so. In our area a few new clubs have opened up but it seems that all they have done is spread out the existing dancers rather than bring in new dancers. New clubs at Stoke, Merseyside etc have struggled.

    Is it because there are some fundamental muggle perceptions that need to be overcome … or quite simple has Ceroc already saturated the UK market?
    Often in the past, I've watched over the weeks and months as a seemingly endless stream of new beginners are introduced to the mix, and wondered; 'where do they all come from?' and 'Does it never end?'. Apparently not.

    It seems there is a constant flow, but with an upper limit on numbers.
    I guess this is because any franchise that has been around a long while, or can draw on the experience of someone/something that has that experience knows the marketing costs to benefits ratio. Nowadays, new ideas are few and far between (tho Jive Nation might be one) so they do the well worked out and established marketing, and get the well known and established numbers thru the door. (bearing in mind that geography, logistics, competition etc. all have effects of course).


    There was a new club opened up down my way not so long ago. With an established and reasonably well known teacher down here, and they were lucky in some ways. At more or less the same time they opened, the existing big boy franchise put his prices up by a quid, and moved his nearest night to them from one hall in the complex, into another. The new hall can only be described as the Dance Hall from Hell. Really, it's atrocious. The new night took about 30-40% of his business straight away, but more importantly, did also manage to get a pretty impressive group of new beginners thru the door. There bumping around a 100 per night in there first three months or so.

    So is my area saturated. No, I guess not.

  18. #18
    Papa Smurf
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Planet Scathe
    Posts
    12,528
    Blog Entries
    6
    Rep Power
    18

    Re: Ceroc Domination Part IV

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Well id usually expect a beginner not to be the best dancer in the world ?

    Also sorry in the ‘real world’ the attractive 30yr old blonde in the tight new shorts, new to ceroc is likely to be asked to dance 8 times more frequently then the 59yr old in the long cardy who has come with her daughter for the first time

    I don’t say that’s right , that’s what happens

    On this basis the attractive people should be staying on longer , not sure if any work has been done on whether the ceroc crowd are getting more ‘attractive’
    good point - when it comes to beginners it is probably attractiveness that rates highly. I was meaning men who can dance a bit

  19. #19
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    411
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Ceroc Domination Part IV

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post

    On this basis the attractive people should be staying on longer , not sure if any work has been done on whether the ceroc crowd are getting more ‘attractive’
    They are! trust me, i believe they are. Look at the recently qualified teachers and Djs in London! And look at the persons that the recruiter only dances with.

    Those of us not in those categories should not knock this because this is the way that the world is and how a good proportion of how we operate, whether we realise it or not. For persons with deeper beauty and strength, this only makes us determined to become good dancers and good to be with. May be its a good thing i am not goodlooking, there would have been a great temptation to go shallow.


    .

  20. #20
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    St. Albans
    Posts
    2,388
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: Ceroc Domination Part IV

    Raul - your first post in this thread was excellent........(could not rep you though).

    I too feel strongly about this.......as per my recent blog entry on 'Transformations' - and the importance (....duty?) I feel (we all have) to encourage and help beginners along.

    This is so vital, if I was a franchisee manager, I would almost be inclined to say come free of charge for the first 6 times (or however many times it is before your are addicted) - and pay particular attention to the newbies throughout - even more so than at present.

    Do Ceroc even measure their 'churn'?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Does anyone actually pay to go to a Ceroc London Class?
    By cerebus636 in forum Let's talk about dance
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: 2nd-April-2008, 10:50 PM
  2. Ceroc 'Hafan' Weekend, Pwllheli June 22-25 2007
    By DianaS in forum Social events
    Replies: 72
    Last Post: 27th-June-2007, 10:17 AM
  3. Perth Ceroc Party?
    By Heather in forum Social events
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 23rd-April-2007, 06:54 PM
  4. Ceroc Busk
    By Rhona1977 in forum Chit Chat
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 7th-March-2007, 04:10 PM
  5. Australian and English Ceroc Move names?
    By Crispy in forum Beginners corner
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 26th-January-2007, 11:47 PM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •