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Thread: Voting - Positive or negative?

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    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Voting - Positive or negative?

    On Thursday the majority of the Country will have an opportunity to vote in England, Scotland and Wales but the question is: should you, and what does your vote actually mean.

    I don't believe in voting, never have and never will and here's why:

    1.) As the Times reported over the w/e 'there is increasing evidence of electoral malpractice'. This means that as your vote is cast with no real evidence of identity (more specifically, with evidence that can be easily forged, duplicated or manufactured) that the voting system is open to fraud. On that basis your vote could be outweighed by others voting under false names or identities, or by abusing the postal vote system, with the purpose of rigging the vote to create the outcome required. By whom and for what reason, I don't know...but the opportunity for fraud is real and does exist.

    2.) Most voters are ill informed about a party's policies and manifesto. How many of you actually read and fully understand the manifesto of the party you are voting for? I would suggest that very few of us would be bothered to do so. If you do great, but if not this means that if you don't understand the issues involved your vote is based on ignorance rather than on making an informed choice.

    3.) Even if you understand the issues and the manifesto, how many political parties actually adhere to all of the manifesto they set out? Again I don't really know, but the anecdotal evidence I pick up would suggest that none do. This means that you are voting on the premise of a party carrying out their 'promises' to you, the voter, and invariably they never do. As an example, how many of you voted for Labour and now feel cheated by some of the policies they have implemented or by the stance they have taken on certain National and International issues?

    4.) Many voters vote based on how their parents vote, or vote based on colour (yes really!) or just for the name they know (great Eddie Murphy film). This would suggest that, ironically, many of the electorate that have a say in how this Country is governed actually can't be trusted with making an informed choice on who they should vote into power.

    5.) Aren't all governments 'corrupt' in one way or another anyway? This just may be my cynical view, but the more I read the more I have come to believe you can't trust ANY politician or government. Look at the recent cash for honours debacle that saw Lord Levy, Labour's chief fund raiser (amongst others) arrested and later released on bail. On this basis if you believe (based on a wealth of historical evidence) that all governments are corrupt, why would you vote for any of them?

    6.) Aren't all political leaders just puppets? Occasionally a political leader will come along that is fresh and idealistic and is therefore someone who you can identify with and feel you can trust. However, how much real power can they actually weald? You only need to watch an episode of 'Yes Prime Minister' to realize that it is negligible. The web of ministerial aides, advisers and civil servants ensure that the Government is run to maintain the status quo - there is no room for ideals in any Government unless there is a beneficial 'spin' that can be gained from it. On this basis, this means that if you vote for an individual politician or leader your vote is cast on a falsehood.

    Some people vote because they feel it gives them a say in how the Country is run, so this has the veneer of positivity about it. But based on the above, I can't personally see how that vote has any value at all. Other people vote so that it gives them the right to then moan and criticize the Government in power for not doing what they should - this is a negative thing. How does that help anyone at all? It might make you feel better, but it won't accomplish anything.

    I think that NOT voting is far more positive. It shows that you are not prepared to tolerate a corrupt and outdated system and it means that you have to take positive steps to live within the framework of whatever system the incumbent party dictates. Sure you might disagree with it on occasion, but if you believe the points I raised earlier, the Government (whoever they are) are just going to do whatever they want anyway. If you make your mind up to go with the flow you will pick up on opportunities whilst others kick their heels and moan into their beer or alcopops.

    I'm no expert, but this feels right to me. I'm hoping that some of you may know more and can put together a persuasive argument that would have me heading for the door on Thursday with something other a torn up voting card in my hand. But before you do, have a shufty at this comment on the American electoral system and see what you think:

    Every two years on the first Tuesday of November, Americans go to the polls in hopes of influencing the direction of the nation in regards to matters of politics and policy. However, the exercise of this civic duty may be increasingly directed towards deciding matters of escalating irrelevancy as the ultimate disposition of the nation has already been settled at levels that regularly ignore the will of those beneath their heals along the social hierarchy.

    For the time being, those that actually run the world have decided that it will be in their best interest if the trappings of the traditional electoral system are continued for a while longer. Such niceties are not being continued solely out of the beneficence of our glorious leaders or merely to keep the serfs from revolting. Rather these procedural mechanisms will be used to condition the American people into accepting a place in the pending global order by subtly subjecting them to assumptions and perspectives of which they might not even be aware.

    And before you ask: No, I don't know what a viable alternative is. But whatever it is IMHO I don't believe it's anything to do with what we have now: in the meantime I'll just take each day as it comes and make the best of it.
    Last edited by Rocky; 29th-April-2007 at 07:59 PM.

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    Registered User Mezzosoprano's Avatar
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    Re: Voting - Positive or negative?

    Well, you've really thought this all through haven't you! A well considered arguement. However......

    I vote - I vote because I can, I vote because other women campaigned and died to give me the right to put a cross in a box and if I didn't vote, I feel that it would make a mockery of their sacrifices.. and even if my choice means nothing in real terms (and I'm a bit of an idealist so I don't believe that it means nothing)... I have exercised my right to be party to the election of someone who will represent my area of the country in the national decision making process.

  3. #3
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Voting - Positive or negative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mezzosoprano View Post
    Well, you've really thought this all through haven't you! A well considered arguement. However......

    I vote - I vote because I can, I vote because other women campaigned and died to give me the right to put a cross in a box and if I didn't vote, I feel that it would make a mockery of their sacrifices.. and even if my choice means nothing in real terms (and I'm a bit of an idealist so I don't believe that it means nothing)... I have exercised my right to be party to the election of someone who will represent my area of the country in the national decision making process.
    I completely accept your viewpoint. In particular the ideals of the many people who died to ensure that different members of our society could vote. However, don't you feel that they would be turning in their grave now if they could see what this system has become? Politics has always had close links with religion (even more so in the US). But in the last 100 years the influence of Big Business has created such close links with political power that one cannot move without the other. For all the reasons stated above, this then gives the illusion of participation to the electorate whereas the reality is far more sinister.

    On this basis, whilst I understand and appreciate your view, do you think the people who fought and died to uphold political freedom would be in favour of what we have today? And if not, don't we do them a better service to fight against a corrupt system (as they did) rather than to help perpetuate it by our participation?
    Last edited by Rocky; 29th-April-2007 at 08:24 PM.

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    Re: Voting - Positive or negative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    {snip long posts}
    ...in summary then, "I can't be fagged to vote and this is how I rationalise it".

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    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Voting - Positive or negative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    ...in summary then, "I can't be fagged to vote and this is how I rationalise it".
    ...or, in summary: The voting system is flawed and most people who vote don't actually undertsand the issues involved or the implications of what they are doing. As such it is entirely rational (if not, preferrable) to refuse to perpetuate the system.

    I would be interested in your views. So for example is there anything that I have said that you believe to be untrue or to be a misrepresentation of the facts?

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    Re: Voting - Positive or negative?

    dont vote never have never will its all a big brother thing with the gov so they can keep an eye open on you

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    Registered User Mary's Avatar
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    Re: Voting - Positive or negative?

    Maybe Guido Fawkes had the right idea.

    M

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    Registered User Keefy's Avatar
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    Re: Voting - Positive or negative?

    Your right to make a post like that is maintained by people who vote. If you cannot be bothered to vote then you have no right to complain about the situation.

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    Registered User LMC's Avatar
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    Re: Voting - Positive or negative?

    The real issues are a) that none of them ever stick to manifesto promises and b) once they're in, you're stuck with them - there is no further opportunity to exercise choice until the following election (ID cards anyone?)

    The whole system sucks. We need proportional representation, and the one thing the Americans have got right - a limit of two terms of office for the Head of Government - in our case the PM.

    Ever since I've been able to vote I've been voting for the "least worst" rather than any party I truly believe in - but I still do it.

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    Re: Voting - Positive or negative?

    Quote Originally Posted by sway View Post
    dont vote never have never will its all a big brother thing with the gov so they can keep an eye open on you
    absolute nonsense !

    but, ironic that the real "big brother" thing gets more people voting

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    Re: Voting - Positive or negative?

    As someone whose MPO is Gordon $£!!ing Brown, my vote is probably more wasted than most.

    And this is the crux of it: I owe it to the country to express my distaste for the manb, his politics, his party and what he intends to do to screw up the things that I hold dear. And so, knowing my vote won't change the result, I will tell the country with my "X" that I choose someone else.

    At least, I can moan through the next Government knowing I used my voice.

    AM somewhat unconvinced bythe "the system is flawed, so I'll have nothing to do with it" approach. And this from a man who's Ceroc's greatest champion.
    Not like you to cop out when it matters, Rocky.

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    Re: Voting - Positive or negative?

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    AM somewhat unconvinced bythe "the system is flawed, so I'll have nothing to do with it" approach.
    Other wise known as "sulking"

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    Registered User Twirly's Avatar
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    Re: Voting - Positive or negative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mezzosoprano View Post
    Well, you've really thought this all through haven't you! A well considered arguement. However......

    I vote - I vote because I can, I vote because other women campaigned and died to give me the right to put a cross in a box and if I didn't vote, I feel that it would make a mockery of their sacrifices.. and even if my choice means nothing in real terms (and I'm a bit of an idealist so I don't believe that it means nothing)... I have exercised my right to be party to the election of someone who will represent my area of the country in the national decision making process.
    Exactly what I was going to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by LMC View Post
    Ever since I've been able to vote I've been voting for the "least worst" rather than any party I truly believe in - but I still do it.


    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    And so, knowing my vote won't change the result, I will tell the country with my "X" that I choose someone else.

    At least, I can moan through the next Government knowing I used my voice.
    And again

    And for all those people in countries where they can’t vote, or the voting system is even more flawed than ours and they are stuck with dictators.

    I believe the elections this week are local ones (not that I’ve had anything through the door from anyone, not even a polling card!), and my understanding is that local votes are actually much more powerful in terms of getting what you want for your area (which will probably affect you more directly) – your vote in a national election becomes diluted because of the scale. Yet ironically, fewer people vote in local elections.

    I note, Rocky, that you said that you don’t have any ideas about what system would be better. However, I’d rather work within the one we’ve got than end up disenfranchised and (even more) powerless. If enough people are apathetic and don’t vote, one day they might take it away. If you don’t use it you lose it.

    Since what we vote for is actually a package of policies and we chose the “least bad” option, maybe parties should put their policies up for election individually – we get to vote for the policy, and therefore the parties can have a better idea of what the people actually want. Although financially that’d never work – we’d probably go for zero taxation and lots of spending on the NHS and education! But then in any system where supposedly everyone’s opinions are taken into consideration, you are never going to please everyone.

  14. #14
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Voting - Positive or negative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    I note, Rocky, that you said that you don’t have any ideas about what system would be better. However, I’d rather work within the one we’ve got than end up disenfranchised and (even more) powerless. If enough people are apathetic and don’t vote, one day they might take it away. If you don’t use it you lose it.


    In the States there is a move to encourage people to vote 'None of the above' this being a vote of no confidence for all the candidates.

    If enough people did this they would have to continue to supply candidates until someone surfaced who was worth voting for.

    Trouble is, that only solves a temporary problem in that the candidate can then only operate within the existing political structure - which, as I have detailed is designed to make them as ineffective as possible.

    My view, based on all the evidence I have presented, is that your vote is worthless now anyway, so losing it would make no real difference - you're already powerless. The 3rd party commentary at the bottom of my post explains this - the voting system still exists because it gives the electorate the illusion of participation. If you accept this then you give them the mechanism to manipulate you any which way they want.

    A voter, or a non voter, still has to go along with this either way. But at least the non voter can say that they have not participated in the sham.

    I don't know who said this but it certainly rings true for me:

    'If voting actually made any real difference the Government would have made it illegal long ago'.

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    Re: Voting - Positive or negative?

    There are many people that know that power should be in the hands of the most intelligent, or the most successful, those closest to God, those with the birthright, and those that just want it. To get there they have either to ride our political system, or destroy it. Those that are trying to ride it have either to persuade people to vote for them, or not to vote. To persuade people not to vote they need people like "Rocky".

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    On Thursday the majority of the Country will have an opportunity to vote in England, Scotland and Wales but the question is: should you, and what does your vote actually mean.

    I don't believe in voting, never have and never will and here's why:

    1.) As the Times reported over the w/e 'there is increasing evidence of electoral malpractice'. ...
    Because something is not perfect does not mean it is not useful.

    2.) Most voters are ill informed about a party's policies and manifesto.
    Nearly everybody is ill-informed about nearly everything. We all make our best guesses.

    3.) Even if you understand the issues and the manifesto, how many political parties actually adhere to all of the manifesto they set out?
    None. Sometimes we should be disappointe.d, sometimes grateful.


    4.) Many voters vote based on ...
    Those seeking to overthrow democracy have their successes.


    5.) Aren't all governments 'corrupt' in one way or another anyway?
    Yes. In the democratic ones we find out when someone is on the way to paying the price for their corruption.


    6.) Aren't all political leaders just puppets?
    "To lead the people I follow them."


    I think that NOT voting is far more positive.
    One more "vote" for the mind-benders.

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    Registered User LMC's Avatar
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    Re: Voting - Positive or negative?

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ View Post
    And this is the crux of it: I owe it to the country to express my distaste for the manb, his politics, his party and what he intends to do to screw up the things that I hold dear. And so, knowing my vote won't change the result, I will tell the country with my "X" that I choose someone else.

    At least, I can moan through the next Government knowing I used my voice.
    >applauds<

    Election turnouts in this country are pathetic. Only 61.29% of voters turned out in the 2005 General Election (source) - scary reading. In 2001, it was only about 59% (same website). Of those, only 35.19% voted for Labour (same website). This means that only approximately 21% of voters elected our current Government. Some democracy huh?

    By way of comparison, over 90% turned out in the 2005 Ethiopian elections. Yes, there were irregularities - but so are there here. And Ethiopia has only had universal suffrage for over 18s since 1995. Given that the vast majority of Ethiopians live in rural areas - limited transport and telecommunications, it just goes to show how little we appreciate the freedom we have here. Use it or lose it. (sources: BBC and Embassy - the charity I work for works in that country).

    Thought experiment: no-one votes. Therefore, since the Government infrastructure is still there (Civil Service, legislation, etc), everyone just stays put. Sounds like a dictatorship to me.

    I was a bit disgusted when someone admitted to me that they had voted for some idiot party like the Pink and Fluffy Bunny Freedom Alliance in 2005. Because they didn't have a clue about any of the manifestos but they thought the Party name was cute. Seriously.

    But at least they turned up. Knowing nothing about any of the parties, they could have taken the easy option and voted Labour. But a vote for another party, however stupid, was at least an expression of disapproval for the actions of the existing Government.

    Yes, the system sucks. But it's better than no vote at all - the Ethiopian elections are a case in point.

  17. #17
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Voting - Positive or negative?

    Quote Originally Posted by LMC View Post
    Thought experiment: no-one votes. Therefore, since the Government infrastructure is still there (Civil Service, legislation, etc), everyone just stays put. Sounds like a dictatorship to me.


    In no one voted wouldn't that have to force through a monumental change in legislation? I don't know enough about it to really know. But if the Government of this Country is elected by the people and the people didn't vote wouldn't that dissolve the system and the Government as we know it?

    Once the system was dissolved maybe something else could be put in place? I'm not politically minded enough to know, but there MUST be alternatives out there?

    I guess if the system is corrupt at the core you have no way of implementing an alternative unless you have some way of carrying out a thorough assessment of departments and personnel - and then you can never be certain if the assessment committee isn't biased or corrupt either...

    It's a conundrum alright!

    How difficult is it to start your own Country or Principality? Can we not claim independence from the Goverment in anyway? Maybe we should just build a copy of the UK offshore and start again - now that would be a lovely place to live - I can just see the entrance criteria now.....

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    Registered User LMC's Avatar
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    Re: Voting - Positive or negative?

    In no one voted wouldn't that have to force through a monumental change in legislation?
    How? - and who would enforce it? - yep, the existing Government.

    If Government was dissolved, then we'd be in a state of anarchy. Which would be nice if no-one took advantage of anyone else in any way. Not gonna happen is it?

    There are no real alternatives. But there are possible improvements:

    1) Proportional representation. Larger areas with a 'team' of candidates from each party that is standing. The proportion of candidates from each team that gets seats is reflected by the proportion of votes. That way, even those who voted for the minority will get some representation, unlike the existing first past the post system.

    2) More processes to enable people to have their say between elections. My MP is a Blair lickarse who just toes the party line The petitions website is a start I guess - if the Government actually does anything about it. Doubtful. Although I liked this petition - shame that not many others do - (demand for legislation to force Govt to hold referendum if a petition receives more than a certain number of signatories)

    3) To give the current lot their due, 'Citizenship' is now part of the school curriculum. Sure, you can't force people to listen or participate. But at least the information is more accessible now, which it wasn't when we were in school.

    No system will ever be perfect. But opting out isn't going to improve it either.

    How difficult is it to start your own Country or Principality? Can we not claim independence from the Goverment in anyway? Maybe we should just build a copy of the UK offshore and start again - now that would be a lovely place to live - I can just see the entrance criteria now.....
    1) Breathing.
    2) Ceroc Membership card.

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    Registered User Shodan's Avatar
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    Re: Voting - Positive or negative?

    I hate voting time of year. Why?

    a) They always bag the hall used for my local thursday jive class. This is a serious crime as it cancels my jive class and annoys me further with our pathetic government.

    b) All politicians are lying, backstabbing *insert swear word here*. They are all just as bad as each other so if I did make a vote it'd be "Enee-meeeneee-mineee-moo" method.

    Granted this is mainly due to my lack of wanting to die of boredom from looking at politics and so forth. As far as I see all governments are doing nowadays is increasing tax, reducing the service we get and lowering speed limits despite cars getting safer and safer.

    My manager just interrupted my train of thought.... I've forgotten what else I was going to say.

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    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Voting - Positive or negative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    How difficult is it to start your own Country or Principality? Can we not claim independence from the Goverment in anyway? Maybe we should just build a copy of the UK offshore and start again - now that would be a lovely place to live - I can just see the entrance criteria now.....
    Quote Originally Posted by LMC View Post
    1) Breathing.
    2) Ceroc Membership card.
    Do you think those two go hand in hand...?

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