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Thread: Voting - Positive or negative?

  1. #21
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Voting - Positive or negative?

    In Scotland we will be electing both our MSPs (Member of the Scottish Parliament) and our local councils.

    In both elections there is a method of proportional representation which means that each vote has a much better chance of meaning something.

    Furthermore, in Scotland we have four parties of some standing, meaning that it is difficult to get the "landslide" elections of Westminster.

    As a result our elected representatives have to work in partnership with each other, always with one eye to public opinion.

    I think this has resulted in much better government in Scotland with a national government that has actually done things for the people who they represent, rather than doing whatever they want once they are elected.

    Examples include the smoking ban, free public transport for the elderly, free eye tests for all and a fairer system for funding students' university places.

    I am looking forward to voting on Thursday, knowing that my votes will count and that those who are elected will pay attention to what the public wants.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Registered User Mezzosoprano's Avatar
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    Re: Voting - Positive or negative?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    In Scotland we will be electing both our MSPs (Member of the Scottish Parliament) and our local councils.

    In both elections there is a method of proportional representation which means that each vote has a much better chance of meaning something.

    Furthermore, in Scotland we have four parties of some standing, meaning that it is difficult to get the "landslide" elections of Westminster.

    As a result our elected representatives have to work in partnership with each other, always with one eye to public opinion.

    I think this has resulted in much better government in Scotland with a national government that has actually done things for the people who they represent, rather than doing whatever they want once they are elected.

    Examples include the smoking ban, free public transport for the elderly, free eye tests for all and a fairer system for funding students' university places.

    I am looking forward to voting on Thursday, knowing that my votes will count and that those who are elected will pay attention to what the public wants.
    Well said that man!!

  3. #23
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Voting - Positive or negative?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    In Scotland we will be electing both our MSPs (Member of the Scottish Parliament) and our local councils.

    In both elections there is a method of proportional representation which means that each vote has a much better chance of meaning something.

    Furthermore, in Scotland we have four parties of some standing, meaning that it is difficult to get the "landslide" elections of Westminster.

    As a result our elected representatives have to work in partnership with each other, always with one eye to public opinion.

    I think this has resulted in much better government in Scotland with a national government that has actually done things for the people who they represent, rather than doing whatever they want once they are elected.

    Examples include the smoking ban, free public transport for the elderly, free eye tests for all and a fairer system for funding students' university places.

    I am looking forward to voting on Thursday, knowing that my votes will count and that those who are elected will pay attention to what the public wants.
    It does sound like a fairer system, but it isn't foolproof.

    Proportional systems can lead to disproportionate magnification of power for small parties. In exchange for joining the government coalition, these small parties get to control ministries and budgets, which gives them enormous power beyond all proportion to the number of voters they represent.

    In a growing society where more and more fringe groups are tolerated that sounds like it could be a potential recipe for disaster to me...

  4. #24
    Registered User LMC's Avatar
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    Re: Voting - Positive or negative?

    Er, off-topic, but it *is* annoying to see the same long post three times in the space of four posts (original + 2 quotes) - there's no need to quote it all if it's just up there ^^^ - just leave the first sentence in so we know which post you're referring to and delete the rest!

  5. #25
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Voting - Positive or negative?

    Quote Originally Posted by LMC View Post
    Er..........!
    I personally like to see the full post in my browser window, so that I can refer to parts of it when I'm replying. That, and I'm lazy...

    We could take a vote on it?

  6. #26
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Voting - Positive or negative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    It does sound like a fairer system, but it isn't foolproof.

    Proportional systems can lead to disproportionate magnification of power for small parties. In exchange for joining the government coalition, these small parties get to control ministries and budgets, which gives them enormous power beyond all proportion to the number of voters they represent.

    In a growing society where more and more fringe groups are tolerated that sounds like it could be a potential recipe for disaster to me...
    It's working in Scotland so far.

    I think it's better that minority parties get some influence on government than single parties with large majorities that think they can do whatever they like – like impose unfair taxes, or start illegal wars...
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Voting - Positive or negative?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    It's working in Scotland so far.

    I think it's better that minority parties get some influence on government than single parties with large majorities that think they can do whatever they like – like impose unfair taxes, or start illegal wars...
    I think you're right. It is a better system, no wonder it's been railroaded in England for so long! But then the Scottish people are so very easy to mainpulate.. - you know i'm only joking right?

    The Scots have been the forerunners of a number of innovative structures for legal and social change - if only we could get everyone wearing tartan (especially the ladies...)

  8. #28
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Voting - Positive or negative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    The Scots have been the forerunners of a number of innovative structures for legal and social change - if only we could get everyone wearing tartan (especially the ladies...)
    You coming to Blaze? I believe the theme is "A Touch of Tartan", so everyone should be wearing some – especially the ladies.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  9. #29
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Voting - Positive or negative?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    You coming to Blaze? I believe the theme is "A Touch of Tartan", so everyone should be wearing some – especially the ladies.
    We were invited and would have loved to have participated - I think it's definitely going to be contender for 'best weekender'. Unfortunately it clashes with other commitments. Hoping there will be some photos posted (no men in kilts though please...)

  10. #30
    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: Voting - Positive or negative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
    All politicians are lying, backstabbing *insert swear word here*. They are all just as bad as each other
    That's a very easy generalisation to make, and lots of people make it. However, like most over-generalisations, it just is not true.

    Yes, undoubtedly it's true of some politicians, just like it's true of some people in all other walks of life. However, I have met some politicians who I am certain are people of integrity, and are well-respected.

  11. #31
    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: Voting - Positive or negative?

    The electoral systems in the UK are not perfect, we can all agree on that. However, voting does change things. It's all decided by the majority.

    If you don't really support any of the candidates who are standing in the election for your constituency, you should vote for the one you think is the least bad.

    I live in south-east Wales, where people were killed, imprisoned and exiled for insisting on the right to vote. I wouldn't want to shame their memory by not bothering. Also, I want to make my opinions on who should represent my constituency and run my country count for something.

    Personally, I believe strongly that everyone who is eligible to vote has a moral responsibility to do so, and that they do their country / region / community a disservice by withholding their vote.

    If candidate "X" has been in the job for a while and made some shocking decisions, enough people voting for candidate "Y" who is standing against him would lead to "X" being kicked out and "Y" getting the job. "Y" would at least have the opportunity to do things better. If, however, the people who don't want "X" to stay in the job don't bother to vote, "X" could get back in by default.

    If you support a particular candidate or party, you should vote for them; if it's more a case of not liking the incumbent, you should vote against them by picking the least-bad (in your opinion) other candidate to vote for.

    In my opinion, those who don't bother to register their opinions by voting have no right to complain if they don't like whoever gets in, as they have done nothing to change the outcome of the election. By default they are allowing other people to choose for them rather than doing it themselves.

    One thing lots of people forget about elections: they're not just about who governs the country / region. They are also, more immediately, about which individual represents you and your constituency in Parliament / Assembly / council. The results have a local impact as well as national.
    Last edited by Baruch; 1st-May-2007 at 10:36 PM.

  12. #32
    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: Voting - Positive or negative?

    Quote Originally Posted by sway View Post
    dont vote never have never will its all a big brother thing with the gov so they can keep an eye open on you
    Where on earth did you get a daft idea like that from?

    Elections in the UK are by secret ballot. Your name does not appear on your voting slip, nor does any other means of identifying you. In other words, nobody knows who you have voted for, unless you choose to tell them. That being the case, how can it possibly be a means of keeping an eye on people?

    The only information that someone could find out about you from an election is whether or not you have voted, and that's true whether you turn up at the polling station or not.

    The whole point of an election is that the people choose who will form the next government. The government in power before the election might well not be afterwards.

  13. #33
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Voting - Positive or negative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    Elections in the UK are by secret ballot. Your name does not appear on your voting slip, nor does any other means of identifying you. In other words, nobody knows who you have voted for, unless you choose to tell them. That being the case, how can it possibly be a means of keeping an eye on people?

    The only information that someone could find out about you from an election is whether or not you have voted, and that's true whether you turn up at the polling station or not.
    That is not true – your number on the electoral register is written on the ballot paper for it is given to you – it might not be trivial, but it's not difficult for "the government" to find out who you voted for.

    Quite why they would want to is another question...

    Here's the voting procedure for the Presiding Officer and Polling Clerk for each person who arrives to vote...
    • Greet the elector, ask for their name and address, and check their eligibility to vote. (Polling Clerk)
    • Mark the Register against the number of the elector by placing a straight line between the elector's number and surname (Polling Clerk)
    • Call out the number and name of the elector (Polling Clerk)
    • Write the elector's registration number including the polling district reference letters/numbers on the face of the counterfoils for each of the ballot papers (Presiding Officer)
    • Stamp the ballot papers with the official mark and hand the ballot papers all together to the elector (Presiding Officer)
    • Elector marks their ballot papers in the privacy of the polling booth
    • Check that the ballot papers have been stamped immediately prior to the voter placing them in the ballot boxes (Presiding Officer)
    • Check voter places correct ballot paper in correct ballot box (Presiding Officer)
    • Say "Goodbye" as voter leaves the polling station. (Presiding Officer & Polling Clerk)
    Last edited by ducasi; 1st-May-2007 at 11:38 PM. Reason: getting it right!
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  14. #34
    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: Voting - Positive or negative?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    That is not true – your electoral register number is written or stamped (can't remember which) onto your ballot sheet before you are given it – it might not be trivial, but it's not difficult for "the government" to find out who you voted for.

    Quite why they would want to is another question...
    Not true. At least, that has never happened in any election I've taken part in, and I have voted in every election, local and national, since I turned eighteen.

    What happens is that my name and number are marked off on a copy of the electoral roll, then the official stamp (which is the same for everyone and does not have any of my personal details on it) is placed on my voting slip before I am given it. No means of identifying me is put on the actual slip. The only way the government could find out who I voted for would be to ask me (and even then they wouldn't know if I was telling the truth).

    If it's done any differently where you live, then a basic principle is being violated. It's supposed to be a secret ballot.

  15. #35
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Voting - Positive or negative?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    That is not true – your number on the electoral register is written on the ballot paper for it is given to you – it might not be trivial, but it's not difficult for "the government" to find out who you voted for.
    More info on this here...
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  16. #36
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Voting - Positive or negative?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    More info on this here...
    This document says:
    Ballot papers are numbered in sequence and these ballot paper numbers are listed in a corresponding number list. When a ballot paper is allocated to a voter, the voter’s electoral number is written next to the number of the ballot paper on this list.
    My quote (that I added afterward) in my first post on this subject suggests that this must be done slightly differently in Scotland.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  17. #37
    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: Voting - Positive or negative?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    My quote (that I added afterward) in my first post on this subject suggests that this must be done slightly differently in Scotland.
    I'll be able to let you know exactly how it's done down here after Thursday.

  18. #38
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Voting - Positive or negative?

    Here's another interesting article about our "secret" ballot... Make sure to read the comments below the main article.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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