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Thread: Phrasing the music

  1. #21
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    Re: Phrasing the music

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    Yes, this is what I meant! I am timing the moves for the lead, but I am following all his moves, I am not leading any moves.
    Actually, that wasn't the distinction I was trying to draw, though I agree that leading your own moves would be non-ideal. Instead, I was trying to distinguish between changing the timing of the end of a led movement, versus changing the timing of the beginning of a led movement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    I think it would be the same for MJ. When followers dance with experienced leads, they learn about timing.
    We do? Darn: I should pay more attention.

  2. #22
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    Re: Phrasing the music

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    I think it would be the same for MJ. When followers dance with experienced leads, they learn about timing. But, how can unexperienced leads learn about timing or even that it exists? It is not taught at a regular Ceroc class.
    Sad to say but a lot of really insightful stuff I have come across has not been learnt at regular Ceroc classes. There are many opinions about why this might be so but a regular ceroc class has to cover a fairly wide range of people in terms of their motivation and capacity to absorb the more technical stuff. If they tried to go too in depth in a regular Ceroc class a lot of people would just decamp to the bar and then go to another venue if it was a regular feature of the venue.

    This sort of stuff is mostly taught at specialist workshops (some Ceroc and some not) and at weekenders. Most peoples path seems to be to follow that of filling themselves up with loads of moves to do and then reach a point when they ask "is that all there is" and start seeking out classes that are more technical rather than a movefest. They then find that they can do do their moves better by understanding more of the technical stuff and so come to value those lessons more than any others.

    People tend to seek out the teachers they need when they realise that they need them.

  3. #23
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    Re: Phrasing the music

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    In WCS, Tatiana distinguished between two things:
    1) The follower does what she is lead to do, but takes longer to do it. Perhaps making a turn take longer.
    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Actually, that wasn't the distinction I was trying to draw, though I agree that leading your own moves would be non-ideal. Instead, I was trying to distinguish between changing the timing of the end of a led movement, versus changing the timing of the beginning of a led movement.
    But surely the timing of the move could be slowed down or speeded up at the beginning too?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post
    This sort of stuff is mostly taught at specialist workshops (some Ceroc and some not) and at weekenders. Most peoples path seems to be to follow that of filling themselves up with loads of moves to do and then reach a point when they ask "is that all there is" and start seeking out classes that are more technical rather than a movefest. They then find that they can do do their moves better by understanding more of the technical stuff and so come to value those lessons more than any others.
    Are you saying that dancer's need to get all technical to be able to phrase/use musicality in their dancing? Because even beginner's moves need musicality as in the Ceroc X Catogary at The Champs, which I watched last year. In fact judges give marks for it. Someone said it is the main thing you need to win. Yet as you say it is not taught. Possibly it may be taught at the ceroc workshops which take place on Sundays. Anyone know?
    People tend to seek out the teachers they need when they realise that they need them.
    When the pupil is ready, the Master appears. (or somesuch)

    So surely there must be leads who learned/discovered phrasing from followers?

  4. #24
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    Re: Phrasing the music

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    Are you saying that dancer's need to get all technical to be able to phrase/use musicality in their dancing? Because even beginner's moves need musicality as in the Ceroc X Catogary at The Champs, which I watched last year. In fact judges give marks for it. Someone said it is the main thing you need to win. Yet as you say it is not taught. Possibly it may be taught at the ceroc workshops which take place on Sundays. Anyone know?
    What I am saying is that GENERAL classes only go into a certain amount of depth and if you want to go deeper into some aspects then you have to make a choice to go along to SPECIALIST workshops. Ceroc also do these, I mostly only know about Francks focus workshops (home area Edinburgh/Glasgow but also teaches at weekenders and will be doing a weekend in London at Utopia in July I think) and the classes taught by Amir and Nigel anderson.

    If you let us know which area of the country you are living in then perhaps some forumites can point you to events or workshops within reach of you.

    I am also saying that MOST people who go along to MJ nights are quite happy to know enough to do moves relatively in time with the music and they have a great deal of fun doing just that. Some people do want to take things further, without always knowing what it is they want/need to learn or where/who they should look for teachers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    So surely there must be leads who learned/discovered phrasing from followers?
    Not usually learnt from followers (unless it is during a long and detailed chat in the bar). If a follower starts hitting breaks or doing musical interpretation on a unknowing novice leader it usually results in the leader just being confused at first and then that gives way into "I know I should be doing something here but I just don't know what it is". It also needs the leader and the follower to be sufficiently proficient in the moves so that they can put that aspect almost on autopilot and have spare mental capacity to be able to listen to the music (rather than just the beat) to hear the musicality that is attached to the beat structure. At the moment I am having severe difficulties in WCS of being able to marry up moves to music because of my lack of proficiency in the moves. I often only notice an opportunity for musical expression in WCS as it politely glides past me waving goodbye leaving me with the thought of "darn, I should have done something with that peice of music".


    IMHO it is much better to have it all explained to you in a classroom style envioroment, with demonstrations before you try and put it into practice. The teachers that I mentioned above give excellant lessons on this.

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    Re: Phrasing the music

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    ...When the pupil is ready, the Master appears. (or somesuch)...
    The teachers I know use the phrases "scaffolding of learning" and "zone of proximal development". which I translate as "You gotta learn some stuff before you can learn some stuff."

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    Re: Phrasing the music

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    But surely the timing of the move could be slowed down or speeded up at the beginning too?
    Of course that is possible. However, Tatiana was saying, quite strongly, that a WCS follower should not alter the timing of the beginning of a movement from what is led, in order to phrase. That's what I wanted to pass on.

  7. #27
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    Re: Phrasing the music

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post
    I mostly only know about Francks focus workshops (home area Edinburgh/Glasgow but also teaches at weekenders and will be doing a weekend in London at Utopia in July I think) and the classes taught by Amir and Nigel anderson.

    If you let us know which area of the country you are living in then perhaps some forumites can point you to events or workshops within reach of you.
    I live in London and have been to some of Amir's and Nigel's classes, but not their workshops. I think I may have seen you at Ealing, do you wear Chef's trousers? I also plan on going to Jango.

    Not usually learnt from followers (unless it is during a long and detailed chat in the bar). If a follower starts hitting breaks or doing musical interpretation on a unknowing novice leader it usually results in the leader just being confused at first and then that gives way into "I know I should be doing something here but I just don't know what it is". It also needs the leader and the follower to be sufficiently proficient in the moves so that they can put that aspect almost on autopilot and have spare mental capacity to be able to listen to the music (rather than just the beat) to hear the musicality that is attached to the beat structure.

    [quote]

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Of course that is possible. However, Tatiana was saying, quite strongly, that a WCS follower should not alter the timing of the beginning of a movement from what is led, in order to phrase. That's what I wanted to pass on.
    Got you now.

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    Re: Phrasing the music

    Astro just sent me a message asking me if, since she is a female follow, she would need to go along to speciality workshops on musicality.

    I thought I would reply in public because I would like to express my view to all the other followers who may be asking this question and also to see if other leaders and followers had the same or different views.

    I think it is good for both leaders and followers to go to these lessons/workshops for the following reasons.

    LEADERS

    They need to understand the music and how to fit moves to the phrasing of the music so that the dance and the music can merge together. They need to understand how to read the musical clues in music that can tell them when accent points and breaks are coming or going to be. They also need a vocabulary of moves to do that will fit in with these points in the music ( at least as a starting point so they can develop their own style later on)

    FOLLOWERS

    To start with the leaders need someone to dance with when they are learning this stuff (dull I know but true). They also need to know what the leaders know so they have an expectation of the sort of things a leader might do to deliver them to the accent point or break in the music, and armed with the expection that they will be delivered to the music they will know when they may have the opportunity to do movement (or lack of it) within a break or arm, head or shoulder styling at an accent point.

    Perhaps other forumites can add more benefits for followers when attending musicality workshops.

  9. #29
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    Re: Phrasing the music

    It's a lot less technical than what Chef has said... but it's so much fun when a follower "hears" the same aspects of the music as me (when I'm leading).
    Love dance, will travel

  10. #30
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    Re: Phrasing the music

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Of course that is possible. However, Tatiana was saying, quite strongly, that a WCS follower should not alter the timing of the beginning of a movement from what is led, in order to phrase. That's what I wanted to pass on.


    That does not mean that a follower can't alter the timing of a pattern to help it make a phrase. Just when you can't influence the pattern. There are guides to when a follower can influence a pattern. That includes changing the pattern after the post is set.

    If a leader begins leading between phrasing and hasn't show that he/she has recognised the phrase change there is unfortunately little that the follower can do. A follower is still a follower...

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