Phrasing the music

[MartinHarper]

So I was thinking about "phrasing the music", and the sage advice of "start your moves on the 1". So, if you have a new verse make sure that you start a new move on the first beat of that verse.

Then I was thinking, what is the first element of an MJ move? Is it the step back? Or is it the thing that immediately follows the step back? Is the step back is the thing that completes and rounds off the previous move, with whatever comes next being the start of the next move? Or is it the start of the next move, with a return being the thing that rounds off the previous move?

Then I decided I didn't know and I needed advice from you folks.

[Jamie]

Well, I'd say it's the step back.

[spindr]

Perhaps you need to turn the question on its head:

The music starts on beat one -- how can I fit the start of the move to fit it?

Actually the music starts when it breaks, which is normally either beat one, *or* beat two, so the question then becomes:

The music starts when it breaks -- how can I fit the start of the move to fit it?

SpinDr

[Ghost]

Well, I'd say it's the step back.

In MJ, the last step of a pattern is the first step of the next

Me too

[DavidY]

I think the step back is like a musical Upbeat (see wikipedia definition). That is, there's still music happening, but it's only in anticipation of the stronger music that happens at the start of the next bar (or "measure" for those in the US ).

So in freestyle, I'd say you'd ideally time your moves so you step back on the upbeat and the main move starts on the beat at the start of the next bar.

[ducasi]

As not all MJ moves are multiples of 4 beats long, how can you start a new move always on 1?

In MJ, some moves tend to flow together so there is no reason to pick an arbitrary point in the flow of moves and say it needs to happen on the 1.

That said, if you can fit your flow of moves so it fits with the music, and allows you to emphasis all the nice aspects of the music you want to emphasis, then that's good too.

So, yes the step back is both the beginning and end of each traditional move, but as far as hitting the 1 goes, the (e.g.) turn out part of the first move is just as valid.

(All IMHO. )

[Gadget]

Then I was thinking, what is the first element of an MJ move?

The "step back" is simply a preperation for the next element, which if you're just on the dance floor is the first element of your move.

The "Return" can be at the other end, but it also ends with a "step back" which is preperation for the next move. Each move's first element is what you do after that step back - your position, your partner's position and how you get into it.

{* all IMHO of course }

[MartinHarper]

As not all MJ moves are multiples of 4 beats long, how can you start a new move always on 1?

I was thinking of the first beat in what I've heard called a "major phrase" - that is, a set of (typically) 32 beats.

[MartinHarper]

I remember the discussion of "Amir's First Move" in 2005, when folks said how great it was that it "fit the music". ChrisA started us off:

A Ceroc first move, a return, and the last step back (ie the beginning of the next move) adds up to eight counts in all - and stepping back on 8 does not feel anywhere near as natural as stepping back on the 1 of the next 8.

Sadly, nobody explained in that thread why it should feel more natural, and I didn't think to ask at the time. In beg/int WCS, it's really clear that the anchor step is the end of a move, and the step in is the start of a move. In MJ, it's less clear to me.

Maybe I should leave phrasing to other dances and keep it out of my MJ altogether. No sense stressing to start a move in the right place if I don't know where the move starts.

[Jamie]

Maybe I should leave phrasing to other dances and keep it out of my MJ altogether. No sense stressing to start a move in the right place if I don't know where the move starts.

I would, after all MJ isn't meant to be technically correct... it's simply an easy dance to learn so we can all have fun and socialise with eachother..

I'd save any phrasing for more technical dances such as WCS etc...

[Amir]

So I was thinking about "phrasing the music", and the sage advice of "start your moves on the 1".

I would modify that advice for modern jive. What I aim for is to achieve the stretch away on the 1. This is what looks and feels phrased to me. This is my 'default' way of dancing, although I'll vary it depending on many factors.

Then I was thinking, what is the first element of an MJ move? Is it the step back?

The first (and last) element of each move in MJ in my opinion is the stretch away. Different people arrange their footwork in different ways, so I can't tell you exactly which foot you should step with on '1' without seeing what footwork you use.

In the footwork I teach, the stretch happens during the rock step, as in the step back (on the left for the man and the right for the lady.) For example, I would aim for the rock step of the first move (when you are side by side) to happen on one, and then the rock step after stepping her under and out to happen on the next 'one'.

In australian step ceroc the stretch actually only reaches is full potential as they step their feet together. (On the left for the man and the right for the lady.) Which is why Robert I think was saying you should step back on 8 (so that the 'stretch' will occur on the one.)

My point is the footwork doesn't matter, it is there to allow a stretch that should occur on "one" if you want to dance phrased.

This stuff isn't important to everyone. I love dancing because of the music and the rhythms. If I don't like the music I won't enjoy dancing. Other people just enjoy moving, and the music is there to create atmosphere. For me the music is the reason and goal of the dance. (Okay I admit. When I started the goal was probably to get laid, but I've matured since then.) I'm not saying this way is better, it just happens to be the only way I personally enjoy it.

Some dances are inherently unphrased. In hustle, because the footwork takes 3 counts, but they still dance to 4/4 music, sometimes you stretch on the one, sometimes on the two, sometimes on the three etc. But although I think the style is beautiful, I find it hard to enjoy watching since they look so disconnected from the music.

A lot of modern jivers also are very disconnected from the music since so many moves are taught unphrased. Which is why I modify the first move for example to take 8 counts. I didn't invent this stuff by the way, lots of people danced modern jive like this before I ever started, and those were the people who's dancing I liked and emulated. It is not 'Amir's first move' but I'm happy to accept royalties anytime someone uses it.

WCS is inherently unphrased unless you stick rigidly to 8 count patterns. This I think is one of the reasons the dance has developed so many stretches, syncopations and accelerations, in the attempt to get an inherently unphrased dance to fit back into the music.

I don't think this would be possible in modern jive because we don't use the triple steps which allow many of these variations. You could incorporate triple steps back into modern jive, but then you would basically be doing swing, so then why not learn the existing techniques instead of inventing a new one. Easier, in my opinion, to modify the length of modern jive moves to match the music. Which is what many of the best dancers do anyway, and I don't take any credit for this innovation either. Although I do take credit cards, cash and cheque.

So Why Bother?

You will be more pleasant to follow and to watch. Even people who don’t know about phrasing will be aware that you dance better, that it somehow feels better, in the same way people who don’t know about music theory will enjoy better musicians.

I also think phrasing changes the dance from feeling like plodding to flying. Since I rarely plod and can not yet fly, I can’t be sure, but that is my conjecture.

[Robert Winter]

Which is why Robert I think was saying you should step back on 8 (so that the 'stretch' will occur on the one.)

Just so.

[CJ]

Some good stuff from Amir...


My answer would depend on my partner and the tune.

Even in a 12 bar, there are so many "ones" that U could aim for: some would be a stretch, some would be a simple step back, some would be a step back with emphases, some would be a dip/emphasis move, some would even be half way through (e.g. the joint step back whilst side by side in the first move).

Songs with other structures would push me to do different things with the "one". Some finish something, some begin something, some pause for effect.

I hope this has helped...

[Amir]

Even in a 12 bar, there are so many "ones" that U could aim for: some would be a stretch, some would be a simple step back, some would be a step back with emphases, some would be a dip/emphasis move, some would even be half way through (e.g. the joint step back whilst side by side in the first move).

Yes agree with that - so in a first move the stretch away will be on the first 1, the rock back side by side on the 2nd 1, and the stretch away after 'under and out' on the 3rd 1.

What I mean by 'stretch' is not a pull away necessarily. I'm just referring to that moment when you are furthest away from your partner before starting to step together again. There is a visual stretch, but for me at least, a minimal physical one.

So I don't mean you should stretch on every 1 (ie every four counts) - that would be silly. Just that when you are stretching, you should aim for this to be on a '1'. Your drops, freezes, poses etc will normally be on 1 too, at least to start with. (I say 'should' in the context of people who want to learn to phrase. If you don't care about it you 'should' do what ever you want!)

If you rock step away from your partner and take one step per count, as long as you start on time you won't have to think about it very much. As it starts to feel more natural you can start to vary your footwork and the timing of moves, and still find it easy to get back into the phrasing. When I see people who come in and out of the music I think it is because they have not got a consistent foundation in footwork. Or at least I believe this is what will 'fix' this challenge.

Maybe people worry this fixed footwork will take away the freedom of their dancing. Its just a stage you go through to develop an instinct you may not already have, after which you forget about it and let it flow, playing with your footwork however you like.

As discussed elsewhere, some teachers don't want to mention footwork as they believe this will lower class numbers. I respect that point of view and know what it feels like to teach something that your class wants as opposed to what you think they need! But if any of you are interested in phrasing I defently think the 'step per count' method will make your life easier in the long run.

Anyway, I think I've been posting way too much and too long. I'm off to commercially operate elsewhere!

Chau!
x
A

ps actually I could be commercially operating at a dance event near you! If people coming to Blaze want all this covered in a class then let me or Franck know. If it is not already being covered by someone else I would be happy to take it on.

[Astro]

I remember reading on a different thread, some bloke saying he was beginning to get bored at ceroc, then he discovered musicality, and I think it happened in one of Amir's classes.

My question is, as a female follower, if the lead is not phrasing and I start to phase, would it be labelled as negative backleading or as positive contribution to the dance?

(Obviously I'm not talking about phrasing with beginners).

[MartinHarper]

As a female follower, if the lead is not phrasing and I start to phase, would it be labelled as negative backleading or as positive contribution to the dance?

In WCS, Tatiana distinguished between two things:
1) The follower does what she is lead to do, but takes longer to do it. Perhaps making a turn take longer.
2) The follower refuses to do what she is lead to do. Perhaps refusing to step in when lead to step in.

She said that the first one was good, and taught the followers some possibilities for doing so. She also said that the second one was evil and wrong. Bearing in mind that WCS is a follower-centric dance, my feeling is that in Modern Jive the second option would be even more wrong and evil, and shall result in an absence of cookies. I'm less sure about the first option.

[straycat]

Anyway, I think I've been posting way too much and too long. I'm off to commercially operate elsewhere!

Not possible, I'm afraid. Now that you've commercially operated here to this extent, you are contractually obliged to limit your commercial operations to this one forum for the rest of your born days. This is not negotiable.

[Beowulf]

I read this thread before and it meant nothing to me.. but thanks to Caro and her teachings last night I kind of understand it now.



weither or not I manage to put it into practice though is another thing altogether !

[Caro]

I read this thread before and it meant nothing to me.. but thanks to Caro and her teachings last night I kind of understand it now.

I must be a good teacher then

cause it can't be that I'm just good at repeating what others have told me

weither or not I manage to put it into practice though is another thing altogether !

just keep practicing

[Astro]

In WCS, Titania distinguished between two things:
1) The follower does what she is lead to do, but takes longer to do it. Perhaps making a turn take longer.

Yes, this is what I meant! I am timing the moves for the lead, but I am following all his moves, I am not leading any moves.

She said that the first one was good, and taught the followers some possibilities for doing so.

I think it would be the same for MJ. When followers dance with experienced leads, they learn about timing. But, how can unexperienced leads learn about timing or even that it exists? It is not taught at a regular Ceroc class.