Originally Posted by Baruch
You make an absolute assertion - 'everyone has sinned' - and when I point to a logical flaw that fatally undermines the assertion, you don't withdraw the assertion, which is the intellectually honest thing to do, but simply waffle, and end up saying 'I don't know'.
In the end, I conclude you believe these things because you want to believe them, rather than because they make any sense.
You think I use an extreme, well that is the way logical dispute goes. A makes a universal assertion, B challenges it, they consider whether the assertion holds water. No point in B gradually working away from the borderline cases towards the ones A cannot accommodate within his assertion, B might as well go straight for the case which most easily demonstrates incompatibility.
No, I make a generalisation. That's not the same thing as an absolute statement. There may well be rare cases that fall outside that generalisation, possibly including the case you mentioned, and I don't deny that. No intellectual dishonesty there.
Good point. I agree. Jiveknight....? Any chance of giving us a "layman's guide" to the basic beliefs of Scientology?
You did say "I know you're using extremes to try to prove a point here", which i found odd...of course he is. And as Barry says, you can suggest milder examples that avoid defending the point, but what purpose does that serve ? You can't forgot about some cases just because they are "rare". In other words, your generalisation serves no useful purpose other than to avoid the point raised.
I asked already, but he's yet to be forthcoming.
Hah. Good luck with that. Costs a lot of money to learn the beliefs of scientology - unless you go to the web, where there are large numbers of people who used to be scientologists and are now happy to explain what they used to believe, for free. No doubt some of them feel quite sheepish.
Or, you can go to - as it were - the horse's mouth (oops, nearly put the wrong bit of the anatomy there...) and see what the oracle hath written. 'Scripture', I believe the scientologists call it. (Except for Battlefield Earth, which I think even they concede is fiction.)
You can choose from Dianetics: the modern science of mental health, Scientology: the fundamentals of thought, Clear body, clear mind: the Effective Purification program, What is scientology?, Dianetics: the evolution of a science, or Scientology: a new slant on life, and that's just on the first page. Most available second hand quite cheaply - as little as 1p.
How helpful am I? Not one one bit of gratuitous sarcasm, even though I did need to almost chew my arm off to restrain myself.
(OK, the fiction remark is close to the knuckle...)
Well done. It must have nearly killed you!
Well, you know, I try to modest but overcoming my vicious instincts was quite a triumph.
Sorry, didn't see this.
I hope this is what you meant, also having been a Scientologist since around 1990 and having toured all over the world and met Scientologists from many countries, I will try to answer any questions you have.
In the Oxford English dictionary it says, Scientology; a religious system based on the seeking of self-knowledge and spiritual fulfillment through courses of study and training.
(This is quite good).
The word comes from latin Scio which means know or distinguish and greek logos, thus it means "knowing how to know"
Scientology is defined as the study and handling of the spirit in relationship to itself, universes and other life.
Our beliefs...
Firstly it addresses the spirit, not the body or mind, and believes man is far more than a product of his environment, or his genes.
Scientology is a body of knowledge coming from certain fundamental truths.
Prime amoung these are;
Man is an immortal spiritual being.
His experience extends well beyond a single life time.
His capabilities are unlimited, even if not presently realized.
Also we believe man is basically good.
It is not a dogmatic religion where one is asked to believe anything on faith. It is something you can find out for yourself if it works for you by applying it and observing or experiencing the results.
By spiritual means, but means which are as precise as mathematics, a host of the bad conditions of life may be remedied in Scientology.
I hope this answers some questions, an probably opens me up for a few more...
Cheers. What about praxis? What actions/behaviours are required of you as a Scientologist?
Ok.
Scientology stresses the application and workability of its principles and techniques. So, quite a lot to cover..
Mainly it would be study, various courses about different aspects of life and how to actually apply this.
Then there is "auditing" (coming from latin "audire" meaning to hear), the goal of which is to restore beingness and ability; the person is able to remove barriers and unwanted conditions and so become more himself.
Regarding behavior there are four main moral codes in Scientology.
One is the Auditor's Code which gives the basic rules an auditor, a practitioner in scientology, must abide by to ensure excellent results.
The code of a Scientologist which are guidelines which Scientologists agree to follow in order to achieve the aims of Scientology.
There is an ethical code, the Code of Honour, that Scientologists follow in day to day activities with their fellow men.
Then there is a non-religious moral code written by L. Ron Hubbard called The Way To Happiness which gives basic precepts for a happy life.
(This moral code is used by Scientlolgists and non-Scientologists alike and millions of copies have been distributed all over the world).
Hope that answers your question.
By the way, before anyone asks. I don't know anything about aliens...
.
L. Ron Hubbard wrote adventure and action stories from about 1934 - 36. In 37 he started writing scripts in Hollywood. He started writing Sci Fi in about 1938 and was known for writing 100,000 words a month at his Remington typewriter. This was one way he financed his research.
I imagine this is where the media and people who like to create controversy come up with this stuff - this is fictional as such.
Also, as gone over, the word Thetan simply is a coined word meaning "spirit", the being, person himself, from the greek letter theta meaning tought/spirit. We use this word so as not to confuse it with the various connotations that spirit, soul etc have.
I will happily answer anyone's questions to the best of my ability but please ask for yourself, don't just quote or link apostate/ex-Scientologists' websites etc, at least on this thread. Cheers
Yes, that was very helpful. It's nice to get the info from the horse's mouth, as it were.Hope that answers your question.
Cheers!
Which church are you with?
Why not? No-one has to follow the link, least of all you. Why are scientologists so hell-bent on ensuring no-one says unfavourable things about scientology?I will happily answer anyone's questions to the best of my ability but please ask for yourself, don't just quote or link apostate/ex-Scientologists' websites etc, at least on this thread. Cheers
Personally I'm not, or I'm sure I would have you on "ignore" by now
No, really it becomes a bit boring to read the same stuff that comes from a handful of people who rightly or wrongly obviously have an axe to grind. There are millions of Scientologists - why not ask them too?
If I want to know about the jewish faith I certainly wouldn't look for only info given by ex, or dissafected jews - but then I am actually interested in other people's beliefs and am not trying merely to discredit them.
I am a Scientologist, and whether or not you agree or completely disagree with my beliefs, I am happy to answer questions.
Stick that stuff on the other sites - I would rather answer real questions from people who have the courage to listen and tolerate other people's beliefs.
By the way the Code of a Scientologist includes;
9. To embrace the policy of equal justice for all.
10. To work for freedom of speech in the world.
and
12. To support the freedom of religion.
Cheers! Ian
I've just left the church I was a member of for 18 years. It's a Pentecostal church (Assemblies of God), though my own beliefs are a little broader than you'd find in the average Pentecostal congregation. I'm currently looking for a new church nearer to home, and I'm open to trying any Christian denomination.
JK, thanks for the info. It's nice to hear about a faith/religion from one of the troops, as it were, as opposed to an official website.
My fiancee and I have just left the church we've been going to for the last wee while to try another, smaller church a little bit outside of Glasgow. Good luck with the searching, I hope you find another church that you feel that you can settle in.
ouch ...... not sure if that is really true
If anyone said anything unfavourable about my own beliefs, my first response would be to put the barriers up and defend - isn't that natural
Last edited by Minnie M; 25th-June-2007 at 09:26 PM.
--ooOoo--
Age is a question of mind over matter, if you don't mind, it doesn't matter
Leroy (Satchel) Paige (1906-1982)
Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, Minnie, made her film debut, along with Mickey, in "Steamboat Willie" on November 18, 1928.
That date is recognized as her official birthday.
Ahem.ouch ...... not sure if that is really true
If anyone said anything unfavourable about my own beliefs, my first response would be to put the barriers up and defend - isn't that natural
First, Scientology doesn't so much try to defend itself as to prevent the criticism being made in the first place.
The Catholic church used to have a department in the Vatican called Propaganda fide, or the propogation of the faith. (Yes, that's where our current word propaganda comes from). Amongst other things, Propaganda fide published a list of books that Catholics were not to read, on paid of excommunication, the Index Librorum Prohibitorum. Most great scientific works of the middle ages were on the list at one time. I'm not sure of the technical position of Propoganda fides at the moment, but the Index still exists - though no-one really pays much attention to it.
It's so much easier for defenders of the faith to avoid the criticism than to deal with it. After all, the mere act of dealing with the criticism engages the intellectual faculties of the audience. Far better that their intellectual faculties remain dormant, and they continue to pay the tithe without awkward questions.
At least now christian officials (not the Pope, obviously, but even the head of the Anglican church) are prepared to debate religious matters with other faiths and even non-believers.
It'll be never (or at least a few hundred years) before David Miscavige or any of his successors debates scientology with a so-called 'apostate'.
As for your own assertion, Minnie, that you would 'put the shutters up' I would be sad if that was the case. I am continually puzzled by the assertion that the things people believe in are so fragile that they cannot withstand the light of examination, and yet others are urged and required to organise their lives according to those same 'fragile' beliefs.
(For scientology, the way in which this manifests itself is that the scientology organisation makes a shedload of money, but it wants to be a 'religion' so that it can be a charity and gain tax exempt status. This deprives my government of money that I would prefer it obtained from the scientology business rather than from taxing elsewhere.)
ooh appropriate and on topic... just read this - basically "Germany has banned the makers of Tom Cruise's new movie from filming at military sites in the country because the actor is a Scientologist". Which I think is out of order to say the least - should it matter how bizare his beliefs are when he's there to make a film? Germany seems to be getting more and more fascist - they are introducing "federal internet surveillance legislation" which will make anonymous internet access and "free" email accounts like hotmail and gmail illegal - see here
should we be worried? history repeating ?
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