Page 8 of 11 FirstFirst ... 4567891011 LastLast
Results 141 to 160 of 218

Thread: The tolerant Beliefs thread

  1. #141
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Southampton
    Posts
    6,709
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: The tolerant Beliefs thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    Biblically, this view is shown to be false. God is, in fact, not able to do everything he wants to, because he has an enemy (Satan) who is at war with him and whose forces sometimes interfere with the will of God being done. An example of this is shown [...] where God's messenger to the prophet Daniel is delayed by 21 days by the opposition of an enemy power.
    Oh well, if it's in the Bible...
    seriously though, why doesn't god just smite Satan? Are you suggesting that he is constrained from so doing, in some way? How is that then? We are back to celestial games. Did god make the rules, or is he bound to play by higher rules? If the latter, whose rules are they?
    God created everything to be good, but humans and other beings voluntarily strayed from their original purpose and exercised their free will to rebel against God.
    Isn't that another logical absurdity? If (the omnipotent) god created everything to be good, how come he made such a poor job of it? He gave them free will and suddenly, they weren't good any more. Oops. Should've connected the red wire to the left hand pin...
    That same free will means that they alone are responsible for the consequences of their actions. God cannot be blamed for what someone else chooses to do, nor is it his fault that sometimes his forces lose battles and cannot prevent evil being done.
    Why does god give some foetuses congenital diseases? Are you saying that is because of original sin? It's going to be far more difficult [nb. not 'impossible'] for someone like that to
    believe in a merciful god. So if he/she dies unshriven, god has played a direct part in that soul's damnation, by not giving it the same chance of eternal salvation as someone born hale and hearty.

  2. #142
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Southampton
    Posts
    6,709
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: The tolerant Beliefs thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirlie Bird View Post
    But it's ok to give god the credit when it's something good.

    Very convenient I reckon. If it's something good then that must be gods doing and if it's bad then that will be satan.

  3. #143
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Southampton
    Posts
    6,709
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: The tolerant Beliefs thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    You know, rolling your eyes at the beliefs of others may not be the best way to demonstrate tolerance and respect on "the tolerant beliefs thread". You probably want this thread:

    http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/c...s-beliefs.html

    (yeah, I know you're not alone)
    This is the live thread at this time...

  4. #144
    Registered User andystyle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Glesgae!
    Posts
    582
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: The tolerant Beliefs thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirlie Bird View Post
    But it's ok to give god the credit when it's something good.

    Very convenient I reckon. If it's something good then that must be gods doing and if it's bad then that will be satan.
    If there is a force for good and a force for evil, and all things stem from one or the other, then the above may very well be the case. It's up to you whether you believe in this outlook or not.

    That's not to say that God can't be responsible for bad things happening...it may be a necessary evil. That's why trusting God is so important. The Bible doesn't promise us an easy time of it, but it does promise us we're safe with God. Perhaps not physically, but definitely spiritually.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    As I recall the Bible is silent as to when God created Satan...
    What's your point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Strange, you are so certain about god, and yet happy to be have no clue about where he comes from...
    What has what science can do about starting points got to do with anything?
    If the Christian view of the world is correct and there is a God, and therefore all the things promised in the Bible are correct (eternal life, forgiveness etc), then does it matter? You will say yes, I imagine. I say no...it isn't something that gets in the way of my relationship with God. I'm not saying that I never wonder, I just don't see it as important...as far as I'm concerned, there is a God. For me, that's the important thing.

    As for my point about science, well...we really have no clue about where everything came from. Big Bang theory is all well and good, but to be honest I don't buy it. You find the existence of a deity nothing more than a theoretical possibility. I find the fact that there just happened to be a large explosion and everything randomly fell into place a bit...well, lacking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Adam and Eve chose to disobey the rules? You believe the Adam and Eve story? Really?
    I've spent the last ten minutes writing various replies, but I'm suddenly bored. Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    You don't feel in the least bit ashamed in saying 'Well, I can't figure out what the point is but god is the answer'. That's a bit like having a Ferrari and just driving it around Sainsbury's car park.
    I'm afraid you lost me there.
    Last edited by andystyle; 25th-May-2007 at 07:47 AM. Reason: Clarification

  5. #145
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Southampton
    Posts
    6,709
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: The tolerant Beliefs thread

    Quote Originally Posted by andystyle View Post
    What's your point?
    Well, there are fulsome descriptions of god's creation of the firmament, and day and night and the sun and the moon, and the oceans, and the animals, and Adam, and Eve. When did he create satan, for the purpose of tempting mankind? Before he created everything else? Or did he think, watching Adam and Eve in the garden, hold on, hom sap is going to have things a bit too easy, I need to put a serpent in paradise...

    Why did he create satan, if he wanted us to obey his rules? Why doesn't the bible tell us about these things?

    Seems all rather capricious, doncha think?

    You have to be a regular Red Queen to believe in all this.

  6. #146
    Registered User andystyle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Glesgae!
    Posts
    582
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: The tolerant Beliefs thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Well, there are fulsome descriptions of god's creation of the firmament, and day and night and the sun and the moon, and the oceans, and the animals, and Adam, and Eve. When did he create satan, for the purpose of tempting mankind? Before he created everything else? Or did he think, watching Adam and Eve in the garden, hold on, hom sap is going to have things a bit too easy, I need to put a serpent in paradise...
    This link illustrates that there is some debate over this very issue.

  7. #147
    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Pontllanfraith
    Posts
    2,261
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: The tolerant Beliefs thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    You have to be a regular Red Queen to believe in all this.
    Er... you might want to look at the title of this thread...

  8. #148
    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Pontllanfraith
    Posts
    2,261
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: The tolerant Beliefs thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Oh well, if it's in the Bible...
    As I'm a follower of Christ who believes in the Bible, what exactly were you expecting me to use as my reference-point when talking about my beliefs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    seriously though, why doesn't god just smite Satan? Are you suggesting that he is constrained from so doing, in some way? How is that then? We are back to celestial games. Did god make the rules, or is he bound to play by higher rules? If the latter, whose rules are they?
    I'm suggesting that God gave every being free will, and he allows that free will to play itself out, including the consequences that come from it, good and bad. God is honouring the free choice he gave us (and other beings). That's why he doesn't just "smite" Satan. If he chose to do that, he'd have to "smite" everyone who has ever rebelled against his ideals in any way, which would leave the world rather unpopulated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Isn't that another logical absurdity? If (the omnipotent) god created everything to be good, how come he made such a poor job of it? He gave them free will and suddenly, they weren't good any more.
    The whole point of free will is that we are all free to choose our own actions. Free will that doesn't include the possibility of choosing to go in the wrong direction is no longer free will. So yes, God "gave them free will and suddenly, they weren't good any more." No logical absurdity there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Why does god give some foetuses congenital diseases?
    There is a simple, two-word answer to that: he doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Are you saying that is because of original sin?
    As I don't believe in original sin in the classical sense, no. The idea of "original sin" comes from Augustine's idea that sin was somehow passed on by sexual activity (which he believed to be inherently sinful), and since we are all conceived by sexual activity, we are all sinful from the moment we are conceived (see chapter 27 here). This idea is based more on a false dichotomy between the spiritual and the material than on any scriptural basis. The Bible does not say that sex is inherently sinful.

    I do believe that everyone has sinned, but I believe it is because of personal choice based on sociological conditioning that is so strong it is almost irresistible. In fact, only one person has ever managed to resist it fully, and that was Jesus.

  9. #149
    Papa Smurf
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Planet Scathe
    Posts
    12,528
    Blog Entries
    6
    Rep Power
    18

    Re: The tolerant Beliefs thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    There is a simple, two-word answer to that: he doesn't.
    umm...thats one word and a contraction

    hey, aren't you a teacher

  10. #150
    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Pontllanfraith
    Posts
    2,261
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: The tolerant Beliefs thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    umm...thats one word and a contraction

    hey, aren't you a teacher
    Yes, but I'm simplifying it for smurfs

  11. #151
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Southampton
    Posts
    6,709
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: The tolerant Beliefs thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    Er... you might want to look at the title of this thread...
    Well now, there you go.

    I know what I think is intolerant, and that would be burning you at the stake or refusing to grant you a tenancy on the basis of what you believe.

    What's intolerant about pointing out how illogical your position is? All you have to do is resolve the ccontradictions, and I'm left looking foolish.

  12. #152
    Papa Smurf
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Planet Scathe
    Posts
    12,528
    Blog Entries
    6
    Rep Power
    18

    Re: The tolerant Beliefs thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Well now, there you go.

    I know what I think is intolerant, and that would be burning you at the stake or refusing to grant you a tenancy on the basis of what you believe.

    What's intolerant about pointing out how illogical your position is? All you have to do is resolve the ccontradictions, and I'm left looking foolish.
    Got to agree. As I've said before, tolerence is not the same as respect but some people would like it to be. If the idea behind "tolerance" in this thread was not to question anything, the entire thread would be filled with nothing but platitudes, and whats the point of that on a forum

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    Yes, but I'm simplifying it for smurfs
    Is downright wrong called "simplifying" in Wales

  13. #153
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Southampton
    Posts
    6,709
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: The tolerant Beliefs thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    As I'm a follower of Christ who believes in the Bible, what exactly were you expecting me to use as my reference-point when talking about my beliefs?
    Fair enough. From this side, it looks like an argument about a change to the rules in football where the side arguing in support of the status quo keeps saying 'Well, that's what the rules say', instead of explaining why the rules should say that.

    I'm suggesting that God gave every being free will, and he allows that free will to play itself out, including the consequences that come from it, good and bad. God is honouring the free choice he gave us (and other beings). That's why he doesn't just "smite" Satan. If he chose to do that, he'd have to "smite" everyone who has ever rebelled against his ideals in any way, which would leave the world rather unpopulated.
    That's what I would call a 'first level' argument. I'm asking a question at the next level down - why? Why did god start this process in the first place? What made it 'better', or 'preferable', from his point of view, than leaving the universe as it already was, rather than indulging in 'creation', from Genesis to now?
    The whole point of free will is that we are all free to choose our own actions. Free will that doesn't include the possibility of choosing to go in the wrong direction is no longer free will. So yes, God "gave them free will and suddenly, they weren't good any more." No logical absurdity there.
    Again, a first level answer. (This isn't an insult, incidentally, I just mean that it only deals with the surface.) Why did he bother? What was the purpose in creating souls who could disobey his commandments? What was the purpose in the commandments? Why didn't he just do something else?
    There is a simple, two-word answer to that: he doesn't.
    Er...yes he does. Or to put it another way, justify your statement. Clearly, congenital diseases exist. God created everything. He designed the human body, he designed the human generative process. Genesis says that god saw 'everything was good'. How did congenital diseases arrive on the scene?
    As I don't believe in original sin in the classical sense, no. The idea of "original sin" comes from Augustine's idea that sin was somehow passed on by sexual activity (which he believed to be inherently sinful), and since we are all conceived by sexual activity, we are all sinful from the moment we are conceived (see chapter 27 here). This idea is based more on a false dichotomy between the spiritual and the material than on any scriptural basis. The Bible does not say that sex is inherently sinful.
    I thought it pretty much did, except between married people. Anyway.
    I do believe that everyone has sinned, but I believe it is because of personal choice based on sociological conditioning that is so strong it is almost irresistible. In fact, only one person has ever managed to resist it fully, and that was Jesus.
    Unfortunately, that won't wash. I know an 8 year old boy who was born irreversibly brain damaged. He suffers hundreds of mini-epileptic fits every day, is fed through a tube in his stomach and cannot speak nor understand speech, has motor control only of his left arm, and lies listening to music and gurgling. What's his sin?

  14. #154
    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Pontllanfraith
    Posts
    2,261
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: The tolerant Beliefs thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Well now, there you go.

    I know what I think is intolerant, and that would be burning you at the stake or refusing to grant you a tenancy on the basis of what you believe.

    What's intolerant about pointing out how illogical your position is? All you have to do is resolve the ccontradictions, and I'm left looking foolish.
    When you're saying things like "You'd have to be a ... to believe that, it certainly comes across as intolerant. Or at the very least condescending.

    The whole point of this thread is that is was supposed to be a place where people can discuss and debate their religious beliefs without it being turned into yet another theism versus atheism debate.

    I know you don't respect people's religion. Fair enough. How about respecting us as people though, and allowing us to have one place where we can discuss our "delusion" without you trying to turn it into an atheism discussion, as previously requested?

  15. #155
    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Pontllanfraith
    Posts
    2,261
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: The tolerant Beliefs thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    If the idea behind "tolerance" in this thread was not to question anything, the entire thread would be filled with nothing but platitudes, and whats the point of that on a forum
    I agree, but what I take issue with is the way Barry always seems to turn every thread on religion into yet another of his crusades to shove atheism into everyone's face. There are plenty of other threads where that has become the main subject, so I'm suggesting that the debates on here should be between people of faith (or at least people with some sort of beliefs) rather than yet another discussion on atheism. In other words, give the rest of us a chance.

  16. #156
    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Pontllanfraith
    Posts
    2,261
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: The tolerant Beliefs thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Fair enough. From this side, it looks like an argument about a change to the rules in football where the side arguing in support of the status quo keeps saying 'Well, that's what the rules say', instead of explaining why the rules should say that.
    When you're a player on the pitch, that's all that matters. We are not the rule-makers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    That's what I would call a 'first level' argument. I'm asking a question at the next level down - why? Why did god start this process in the first place? What made it 'better', or 'preferable', from his point of view, than leaving the universe as it already was, rather than indulging in 'creation', from Genesis to now?
    Only God could answer that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Er...yes he does. Or to put it another way, justify your statement. Clearly, congenital diseases exist. God created everything. He designed the human body, he designed the human generative process. Genesis says that god saw 'everything was good'. How did congenital diseases arrive on the scene?
    Congenital diseases are one of many forms of evil that came into being when the world was corrupted by the influence of free agents who chose to sin (supernatural beings such as angels among them).

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    I thought it pretty much did, except between married people. Anyway.
    That's a pretty big "except", but that's a discussion I don't want to get into right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Unfortunately, that won't wash. I know an 8 year old boy who was born irreversibly brain damaged. He suffers hundreds of mini-epileptic fits every day, is fed through a tube in his stomach and cannot speak nor understand speech, has motor control only of his left arm, and lies listening to music and gurgling. What's his sin?
    I know you're using extremes to try to prove a point here, but most cases aren't that extreme. As for that young boy, I have no idea. I'm not God. Was he ever capable of sinning? Personally I doubt it, but I don't know.

  17. #157
    Papa Smurf
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Planet Scathe
    Posts
    12,528
    Blog Entries
    6
    Rep Power
    18

    Re: The tolerant Beliefs thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    I agree, but what I take issue with is the way Barry always seems to turn every thread on religion into yet another of his crusades to shove atheism into everyone's face. There are plenty of other threads where that has become the main subject, so I'm suggesting that the debates on here should be between people of faith (or at least people with some sort of beliefs) rather than yet another discussion on atheism. In other words, give the rest of us a chance.
    I really don't see that he's doing that. He is asking questions and further questioning the answers , but at no point have i seen him mention atheism! I think its a bit rude of you to say "only people of faith" should debate in here. It suggests you don't believe that NOT believing is a sensible option and that people that way inclined are not worth talking to. It's Barrys atheism you seem to be complaining about NOT what he's actually asking. Who's intolerant now then ?

    Maybe Barry should let it go, and "give the rest of us a chance" but what then will be discussed here ? I would guess: nothing at all

  18. #158
    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Pontllanfraith
    Posts
    2,261
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: The tolerant Beliefs thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I really don't see that he's doing that. He is asking questions and further questioning the answers , but at no point have i seen him mention atheism! I think its a bit rude of you to say "only people of faith" should debate in here. It suggests you don't believe that NOT believing is a sensible option and that people that way inclined are not worth talking to. It's Barrys atheism you seem to be complaining about NOT what he's actually asking. Who's intolerant now then ?
    OK, I guess I worded that badly. I have no problem with people who are atheists, and yes, we should be able to discuss atheism as much as other beliefs. What I'm really opposed to is Barry's "crusading" atheism and the way he turns every discussion about religion into another discussion about theism v. atheism, particularly as that discussion is already on many other threads.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Maybe Barry should let it go, and "give the rest of us a chance"
    That's my real point, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    but what then will be discussed here ? I would guess: nothing at all
    Perhaps, but in that case so be it. At least there'll be the opportunity for freer discussion of faith and beliefs here if people want it.

  19. #159
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Worcester, UK
    Posts
    4,157
    Rep Power
    12

    Re: The tolerant Beliefs thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    If the idea behind "tolerance" in this thread was not to question anything, the entire thread would be filled with nothing but platitudes, and whats the point of that on a forum
    Perhaps it would be helpful to have a quick reminder of the purpose of this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by jiveknight View Post
    There a couple of agreements that you are asked to adhere to wherever possible:

    1. Please don't jump on another's belief (or un-belief) and/or post and invalidate it. (It is their belief and your opinion shouldn't have to change this - at least not on this thread) but obviously discuss your agreement or disagreement while still respecting their right to believe or disbelieve as they see fit.

    2. Where possible please put forward your beliefs or arguments in layman's terms, normal language - obviously religions etc as with many other subjects
    have their nomenclature (own special words) so if you have to write a specific term to convey your concept please "translate" this.
    Those who can't agree to this are free to post on the appropriate thread that exists for us to invalidate each other's beliefs:

    http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/c...s-beliefs.html

  20. #160
    Registered User andystyle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Glesgae!
    Posts
    582
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: The tolerant Beliefs thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Those who can't agree to this are free to post on the appropriate thread that exists for us to invalidate each other's beliefs:

    http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/c...s-beliefs.html
    Agreed.

    I saw this thread as being a place where we could discuss different faiths, not the place where we discuss the reasons behind having a faith.

    For example, I'd be interested in learning more about Scientology from someone who is a practicing Scientologist rather than what can be gleaned from the net. Perhaps there are some who are interested in what being a Christian means to those who are. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. The Iraq thread
    By David Bailey in forum Chit Chat
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 25th-March-2008, 10:43 AM
  2. The Southport June 2007 Poll & Thread!!!
    By ducasi in forum Social events
    Replies: 342
    Last Post: 1st-June-2007, 10:31 AM
  3. Half a thread disappearing
    By Sheepman in forum Forum technical problems / Questions / Suggestions..
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 19th-August-2003, 11:54 AM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •