The tolerant Beliefs thread

[Dreadful Scathe]

What would you do if you were in the situation of being able to stop a child being killed but, knowing full well that if he lived, many more would die at his hands? Any evil is never 'ok', but it may be a necessary evil.

How would I know what the child would do? Surely, with free will, the child could change his mind about an evil life and have a good one. You HAVE to stop the evil in the present ? If you don't and are later proved wrong....you are evil yourself.

Christians believe that the world we live in is a fallen world, infected with sin, removed from God and under the power of Satan. Accordingly, when something bad happens, it shouldn't automatically be God's fault. Saying 'it's for the greater good' is only one possible explanation. The man killing the mother or the child - or anyone else, for that matter - may indeed be acting under the influence of God, for some better purpose. However, he may also be acting under the influence of Satan. He may be doing it for kicks, or a dare, or a bet. There may be no sense in his actions, and the poor unfortunate who is killed is just that...unfortunate. There are more explanations to unfortunate events than simply saying it's God's fault.

but equally there are more explanations to fortunate events then simply saying it's God's fault.

[andystyle]

How would I know what the child would do? Surely, with free will, the child could change his mind about an evil life and have a good one. You HAVE to stop the evil now surely ?

That's my point exactly. We wouldn't know, and would act on the information available to us. However, God would know, and would act on the information available to Him. Therefore, His actions may be different from ours. So stopping an evil now may not be the best option, not when you can see the bigger picture - which is something we may not be able to.

but equally there are more explanations to fortunate events then simply saying it's God's fault.

Perhaps. It would depend on what you believe influences the world. As a Christian, I see God (good) and Satan (evil) as well as sin (corrupting). My explanations for the bad things are on this thread...what would your explantions for the good things be?

[Barry Shnikov]

What gets to me is the continuing habit of people judging God with human perceptions...as God, is it not possible that He knows far more about any situation than we can, and act accordingly? We may not see the benefit, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.

Special pleading.

We can't judge anything except with human perceptions. I think you meant something other than what you wrote, because that argument prevents us from judging anything.
I think what you mean is judging by human standards. This is a bit of a cul-de-sac argument. People who praise god for a squeaky escape are probably not amenable to arguments in favour of atheism. But there is a logical absurdity in simply not questioning the inadequacies of the universe, but praising a divine being for its wondrousness.

Of course if the rapture happens tomorrow, we'll all know you were right. Otherwise - just how long is god's mysterious way going to take to work some improvements?

[Dreadful Scathe]

That's my point exactly. We wouldn't know, and would act on the information available to us. However, God would know, and would act on the information available to Him. Therefore, His actions may be different from ours. So stopping an evil now may not be the best option, not when you can see the bigger picture - which is something we may not be able to.

No. You said we WOULD know...

knowing full well that if he lived, many more would die

...yet I would still take the sure thing and stop the evil now - unless you are saying the future is fixed and there is no free will or ability for anyone, anything or any situation to change ?

Also - what would you do if preventing a death caused the death of 1 million but NOT preventing it caused the death of 1 million and 2. Is it always purely a numbers game then? Lets NOT prevent it, as 2 will be saved? Is it not the acts that are evil more than the results ?

Perhaps. It would depend on what you believe influences the world. As a Christian, I see God (good) and Satan (evil) as well as sin (corrupting). My explanations for the bad things are on this thread...what would your explantions for the good things be?

Hundreds of reasons, but the point is that they are not necessarily God

[Barry Shnikov]

What would you do if you were in the situation of being able to stop a child being killed but, knowing full well that if he lived, many more would die at his hands? Any evil is never 'ok', but it may be a necessary evil.

This is a specious argument, because it takes as a premise (that it is possible to foretell the future) what it seeks to prove (that god knows the future). Then we get into complicated philosophical contemplation of free will vs. determinism. I think chaos theory has effectively destroyed the argument that the universe is deterministic. The amount of information processing power required to determine whether or not a particular child is going to turn into a political mass murderer is infinite. That would make god infinitely complex. Oo, that would make him irreducibly complex, wouldn't it? So who designed him?

Christians believe that the world we live in is a fallen world, infected with sin, removed from God and under the power of Satan. Accordingly, when something bad happens, it shouldn't automatically be God's fault. Saying 'it's for the greater good' is only one possible explanation. The man killing the mother or the child - or anyone else, for that matter - may indeed be acting under the influence of God, for some better purpose.

This is perilously close to suggesting that you believe god created the universe for his personal entertainment. You are suggesting that evil and suffering and atonement therefor serve some higher purpose. Well, not higher than god. So he created the rules, and then created a creature that is not capable of conforming to those rules, so that he would then be obliged to visit pain and suffering (for many, eternal pain and suffering and hell) on his creations for not following the rules that he could perfectly well have changed or he could have created humans that were not subject to the whim of the balance of chemicals in their own bodies.
I'm sorry - but what's the point in that?

[Barry Shnikov]

Hundreds of reasons, but the point is that they are not necessarily God

I find it insulting to see it suggested that human beings can't be responsible for good things happening, without the necessity for god continually tinkering with everybody.

[Rhythm King]

Erm, I posted a long reply to Baruch and andystyle this morning and now it isn't there .

a) If it was removed by a moderator, I'm confused as IMHO it was no more, or less reasonable then any of the other comments above, but hey, you guys have the last word.

b) If it hasn't in fact posted, then I am equally confused and apologise to Baruch and andystyle for appearing to have ignored your questions.

I won't re-post it, in case of a above ( plus it would take too long ).

[Barry Shnikov]

Erm, I posted a long reply to Baruch and andystyle this morning and now it isn't there .

a) If it was removed by a moderator, I'm confused as IMHO it was no more, or less reasonable then any of the other comments above, but hey, you guys have the last word.

b) If it hasn't in fact posted, then I am equally confused and apologise to Baruch and andystyle for appearing to have ignored your questions.

I won't re-post it, in case of a above ( plus it would take too long ).

Mmmm.

I had a PM yesterday from somebody who posted a response to one of my posts and had it removed by the moderators. I hastened to give the reassurance that I had not even seen the post, still less objected to it.

Speaking personally, I would rather the moderators didn't do this. I'm a big boy now, and pretty thick-skinned, and if someone says something about me I don't like I'll back myself to make an appropriate response - hopefully a humorous retort. Having posts surreptitiously removed is - well, sinister. (Or it would be if this wasn't a relatively trivial part of life.)

The nanny state goes dancing.

[andystyle]

Special pleading.

We can't judge anything except with human perceptions. {snip} But there is a logical absurdity in simply not questioning the inadequacies of the universe, but praising a divine being for its wondrousness.

The important thing is that you see what I'm driving at. The negative influences in the world are explained in the Bible...that's what the whole issue of sin and the influence of Satan is about, by telling us that God isn't the only force in play. I understand that this may not wash with a non-believer; I'm merely trying to tell it from what I perceive as the Christian point-of-view.

No. You said we WOULD know...

...yet I would still take the sure thing and stop the evil now - unless you are saying the future is fixed and there is no free will or ability for anyone, anything or any situation to change ?

You're either not getting my point, or you're distorting my posts. Knowing what would happen if the child were to survive is hypothetical, as I suspect you know. The reality - and the point I made - is that we don't know what may occur, but God does and acts accordingly.

Also - what would you do if preventing a death caused the death of 1 million but NOT preventing it caused the death of 1 million and 2. Is it always purely a numbers game then? Lets NOT prevent it, as 2 will be saved? Is it not the acts that are evil more than the results ?

I have no idea of whether or not it is a numbers game or not, nor am I in a position to determine what is more important. However, my belief - and the point I'm making - is that God is and does.

This is a specious argument, {snip} So who designed him?

Maybe, but it served a purpose. As for your question, I have no idea who's responsible for the existence of God, if anything indeed is. The Bible doesn't go into it. Equally, science can't define the starting point with anything other than a theory, either.

This is perilously close to suggesting that you believe god created the universe for his personal entertainment.

Believe me, I do wonder from time to time...

You are suggesting that evil and suffering and atonement therefor serve some higher purpose. Well, not higher than god. So he created the rules, and then created a creature that is not capable of conforming to those rules, so that he would then be obliged to visit pain and suffering (for many, eternal pain and suffering and hell) on his creations for not following the rules that he could perfectly well have changed or he could have created humans that were not subject to the whim of the balance of chemicals in their own bodies.
I'm sorry - but what's the point in that?

Actually, we were capable of conforming to the rules. Adam and Eve chose to disobey them. There's a difference. As for the point of it all...well, like I've been saying, just because it isn't immediately obvious doesn't mean that there isn't a good point to it.

[andystyle]

Erm, I posted a long reply to Baruch and andystyle this morning and now it isn't there .

a) If it was removed by a moderator, I'm confused as IMHO it was no more, or less reasonable then any of the other comments above, but hey, you guys have the last word.

b) If it hasn't in fact posted, then I am equally confused and apologise to Baruch and andystyle for appearing to have ignored your questions.

I won't re-post it, in case of a above ( plus it would take too long ).

Sorry to hear that! I look forward to a comment from the mods?

[Lory]

Sorry to hear that! I look forward to a comment from the mods?

Well, it's a mystery to us too

If a post were to be removed by 'us', the system sends an automated PM to the poster, so RK, unless you've recieved a PM of notification, then it looks as though the problem lies at your end hun!

[Beowulf]

The nanny state goes dancing.

Still going on about the Champs "Mary Poppins" dance? Let it drop Barry..it's all right..You can let it go!

[Rhythm King]

Well, it's a mystery to us too

If a post were to be removed by 'us', the system sends an automated PM to the poster, so RK, unless you've recieved a PM of notification, then it looks as though the problem lies at your end hun!

Thanks for that Since then I seem to get logged out sometimes, when moving from the search results to threads, so it looks like it is the wonderfully weird web at work.

I will try and regenerate my original post later on (and possibly make it a bit shorter ).

Cheers

R-K

[MartinHarper]

I'm sure there's a psychological term for that "he's responsible for the good but he's too good to be responsible for the bad" way of thinking when applied to partners, siblings etc... Dunno what it is actually called, but you could call it "flowery thinking" .

Confirmation Bias is the general term. It's one of a number of ways that the brain trades off correctness for speed.

[Baruch]

If a martial arts expert and 100% good person stood by whilst some drunkard with a knife stabbed a child to death, even though it was easily in his power to stop it... Would we still say he was 100% good ? Would we not blame him at all

In such a case, of course the martial arts expert would be at fault, and if God were to do similar then we would have to admit that he would be at fault. However, this assumes that it is easily in God's power to do anything he chooses.

Biblically, this view is shown to be false. God is, in fact, not able to do everything he wants to, because he has an enemy (Satan) who is at war with him and whose forces sometimes interfere with the will of God being done. An example of this is shown here, where God's messenger to the prophet Daniel is delayed by 21 days by the opposition of an enemy power.

God created everything to be good, but humans and other beings voluntarily strayed from their original purpose and exercised their free will to rebel against God. That same free will means that they alone are responsible for the consequences of their actions. God cannot be blamed for what someone else chooses to do, nor is it his fault that sometimes his forces lose battles and cannot prevent evil being done.

(Anyone wanting to look into this "warfare worldview" further could read God at War by Gregory Boyd, ISBN 0830818855.)

[Twirlie Bird]

Christians believe that the world we live in is a fallen world, infected with sin, removed from God and under the power of Satan. Accordingly, when something bad happens, it shouldn't automatically be God's fault.

But it's ok to give god the credit when it's something good.

Very convenient I reckon. If it's something good then that must be gods doing and if it's bad then that will be satan.

[Barry Shnikov]

The important thing is that you see what I'm driving at. The negative influences in the world are explained in the Bible...that's what the whole issue of sin and the influence of Satan is about, by telling us that God isn't the only force in play. I understand that this may not wash with a non-believer; I'm merely trying to tell it from what I perceive as the Christian point-of-view.

As I recall the Bible is silent as to when God created Satan...

Maybe, but it served a purpose.

Er...no. Specious arguments serve no purpose. Except to enrage those who have to point out that they are specious.

As for your question, I have no idea who's responsible for the existence of God, if anything indeed is. The Bible doesn't go into it. Equally, science can't define the starting point with anything other than a theory, either.

Strange, you are so certain about god, and yet happy to be have no clue about where he comes from...
What has what science can do about starting points got to do with anything?

Actually, we were capable of conforming to the rules. Adam and Eve chose to disobey them. There's a difference. As for the point of it all...well, like I've been saying, just because it isn't immediately obvious doesn't mean that there isn't a good point to it.

Adam and Eve chose to disobey the rules? You believe the Adam and Eve story? Really?
You don't feel in the least bit ashamed in saying 'Well, I can't figure out what the point is but god is the answer'. That's a bit like having a Ferrari and just driving it around Sainsbury's car park.

[Barry Shnikov]

Still going on about the Champs "Mary Poppins" dance? Let it drop Barry..it's all right..You can let it go!

Eh?

[rubyred]

I think that we have a responsibility for our own thoughts and actions which in my opinion, are influenced and shaped by our life experiences rather than a Godly force for good and a Satanic force for bad. I think that this is too simplistic and does not allow for self realisation,discovery and interpretation of our individual life events and belief systems.

I don't tend to accept the belief of a dark and evil demon which sabotages the goodness of life, I think that man [kind] has a negative force that makes us well capable of destruction and annihilating each other, look at Hiroshima, Hitler, Yugoslavia, Child abuse, elder abuse, domestic violence....all these are fuelled by greed, power and control. Mankind has a cruel streak, but is this due to an outside spiritual force?. If I were to accept this I would think that people who do bad things have something or someone else to blame for their own actions rather than taking responsibility for themselves.


Not all doom and gloom though , I am an optimist and as such try to see the best in everything, sometimes that is hard ,but then my belief system does not make me tolerate things that destroy the goodness in people such as discrimination and abuse of power. There is a lot of good in the world, and we need to keep that in mind, good news doesn’t sell newspapers so we don’t hear about it too often maybe we have to look for it a bit more.

[MartinHarper]

Very convenient I reckon. If it's something good then that must be gods doing and if it's bad then that will be satan.

You know, rolling your eyes at the beliefs of others may not be the best way to demonstrate tolerance and respect on "the tolerant beliefs thread". You probably want this thread:

http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/c...s-beliefs.html

(yeah, I know you're not alone)