Down beat and Upbeat

[kiwichook]

Haven't checked if there is a thread on this, yes, am being lazy, but can anyone explain to me what is the difference is between dancing on the "up beat" as opposed to dancing on the "down beat"..?
How can you tell which beat a dancers working on?
cheers

[Paul F]

There's someone that should have been in my musicality class


There is lots of opinion on downbeats and upbeats depending on what dancing you are doing. It is advised that, if you want to accentuate a beat, it would be the upbeat (or even beat).
Certain pieces of music demonstrate it more than others. My favourite, and the one I use in my musicality classes, is Wade in the Water. If you count through the beats using a "1,2" repeating count you should find that the 2 is a stronger beat than the 1. It is presumed that the dancer will try and express that beat over the down beat.

Of course, there are no hard and fast rules. This is personal interpretation at the end of the day.

To tell which a dancer is dancing on is very difficult unless their body movement is increadibly obvious. Ultimately you are trying to spot their interpretation of music which, in itself, is tricky.

[Caro]

Ok... time to see if I've understood all what you guys on the forum have explained to me over the past year or so...

When your ceroc teacher counts before starting a move (5, 6, 7, 8... semi-circle to the left...), he/she actually counts the downbeats only, i.e. you could say in ceroc you dance (or in fact you start dancing) on the downbeat. Then the most common way of doing things is to step on every musical beat.
So you could very well start dancing ceroc on the upbeat, but it would feel and look very weird to most people.

Now in fact the musical beat is twice as fast as that (think clapping on the beat), when the teacher counts 5,6,7,8 he/she is in fact counting 1 (5),2,3(6),4,5(7),6,7(8),8 , which is called 2 bars of music (well, in most of the music that we dance ceroc to - but some DJs like to be mischievious at times ). In this count, odd beats are called downbeat (or onbeat) while even beats are called upbeat (or backbeat or offbeat). So when people are saying, 'those guys are dancing offbeat', it means they are dancing on the even musical beats. You don't want to do that

Other dance style sometimes dance on the other beat, the upbeat, but I'll let others more qualified people to explain that...

A few links to other threads:

Counting on the off beat
When do you clap when you clap half-beat?
Dancing on the beat

*crosses fingers and hopes she hasn't said too much rubbish*

[ducasi]

[...] So when people are saying, 'those guys are dancing offbeat', it means they are dancing on the even musical beats. You don't want to do that [...]

If you're stepping (approximately) every beat (whether up or down) – how can you you be dancing off beat?

[MartinHarper]

If you're stepping (approximately) every beat (whether up or down) – how can you you be dancing off beat?

Normally in MJ we take bigger steps on the down beat. The up beat is often simply a weight transfer (eg, in a rock step) or bringing the feet together (eg, when moving together in a first move or yoyo).

[Caro]

If you're stepping (approximately) every beat (whether up or down) – how can you you be dancing off beat?

As MH said, you do different things on the on and off beat. So, when you do the ceroc 'step back' for example, it happens on the downbeats. In a class (with a willing partner!) you could try and offset the teacher by exactly one musical beat - you would then be dancing 'on the upbeat' and it would feel really strange.

As a follow I would normally step on the right foot on the on beat and on the left on the off beat (same as simple steps in WCS), because that's the most common thing to do and works well with most moves. I suspect leaders do the opposite...

[Lou]

Normally in MJ we take bigger steps on the down beat. The up beat is often simply a weight transfer (eg, in a rock step) or bringing the feet together (eg, when moving together in a first move or yoyo).

Except I would've said "more significant" rather than "bigger".

Think of the Arm Jive, for instance. It would feel really weird if you had to change arm direction on the up-beats.

[ducasi]

Think of the Arm Jive, for instance. It would feel really weird if you had to change arm direction on the up-beats.

The arm-jive is special as each movement is normally done in two beats...

I agree that in most cases there is a more emphatic step/move/whatever on the down beat, but generally, as a free-form dance form, I'm not sure you can always say that someone is dancing to the up or down beat – more that they are simply dancing to the beat. (But if more people tell me I'm talking nonsense, I'm prepared to change my thinking. )

[Lou]

The arm-jive is special as each movement is normally done in two beats...

I disagree. Most MJ moves take 2 beats to get from one significant position to another. I deliberately chose the Arm Jive because it's the simplest to get your head around. But it applies equally well to others. Think of the standard First Move for instance... ( )

Step back on 1.
Bring the Lady in on 2.
Turn out & step back on 3.
Bring the Lady back in on 4.
Turn the Lady under on 5
Step back on 6.
(carry on into return as desired... as always, remember that 1 MJ count = 2 beats)

All of those items listed above are positions that you hit on the downbeat. Obviously, you are travelling to each position in between each count. These are the upbeats. Followers, like Caro, tend to also step on these upbeats, in order to get to the required position more easily. And this is why Andy McGregor believes in his One True Footwork so strongly. It feels nice to do LRLRLRLR.

The downbeat is emphasised. It feels good to make your significant moves on that beat. It's also what gives the music its framework - like the positions above give the move its framework. They fit together, you see? And that's a definition point of what makes the dance MJ.

Now, if you try to make your significant positions on the upbeat, it jars. You are not dancing to the music.

Of course, this is a simplified version of what happens. Music has a structure, too. There may be syncopations & different emphasis on beats in the bar. But the counts, along with the emphasis of the music, will always hold true*.

*Except when folks get more experience & choose to play with the rules by getting to the position a bit early or late, or whatever else suits the mood & the music. But that's OK - 'cos they know what they're doing, even if they haven't thought about it like this.

[ducasi]

[...] It is advised that, if you want to accentuate a beat, it would be the upbeat (or even beat).
Certain pieces of music demonstrate it more than others. My favourite, and the one I use in my musicality classes, is Wade in the Water. If you count through the beats using a "1,2" repeating count you should find that the 2 is a stronger beat than the 1. It is presumed that the dancer will try and express that beat over the down beat. [...]

[...] The downbeat is emphasised. It feels good to make your significant moves on that beat. It's also what gives the music its framework - like the positions above give the move its framework. They fit together, you see? And that's a definition point of what makes the dance MJ.

Now, if you try to make your significant positions on the upbeat, it jars. You are not dancing to the music. [...]

So, should I emphasis the up beat, or the down beat?

[Mr Cool]

Understanding Down beats and Up beats may be good stuff in theory, In practice rather confusing to most.
Musicality classes are also a good idea for learning more about music and how it is constructed.
However to learn to dance well with good musical interpretation there is no substitute to practice.
Simply listening to the music and practicing dancing to it using simple basic moves is key to success no matter what style of dance.
Dancing is about the dexterity of the feet and the dancers Mind feet coordanation.

Its a bit like any sport it helps to know the rules but you have to practice to improve.

[Robert Winter]

So, should I emphasis the up beat, or the down beat?

The annoying answer to this question is both. It depends on are you dancing an upbeat or a down beat style? For those who are unsure MJ is an upbeat dance (ie the initiating step is on the even count) and WCS is a down beat dance (ie the initiating step is on the odd count).

In its most basic form, musicality tends to consists of "hitting the breaks". For example there may be a break in the music (generally on an odd count, ie 1, 3, 5, 7) and one will lead a dip/comb/check/whatever on this break. However, musicality is not just about "hitting the breaks", it is also about how ones dancing looks in between those hits. This is where emphasizing the up beat comes into play.

In WCS by dancing to the upbeat it tends to stretch out ones actions and makes the dance look more fluid and elastic which is why a lot of people stress the importance of it. This is because the initiating step is on the odd count (1) and the "completion step" is on the even count (2). As such it looks a little stilted if one emphasizes the 1. However, MJ differs in that our "completion step" is on the odd count (1 as we have taken our initiating step on the 8 of the previous phrase). So if we emphasize the upbeat it can have the effect of looking a little more stilted than if we emphasize the down beat and hang before our next "initializing" step.

For this reason WCS will often look more dynamic (in terms of its fluid look) than MJ because it is built to make better use of both the down and up beat. However, there are a number of "workarounds" which one can use in MJ to make our style look infinitely more amazing and fluid than it generally does. To do this we also make use of the upbeat, but not so much in terms of emphasizing it more in terms of "rolling" the action so that our body flight is as fluid as possible when we arrive on the down beat.

Hope this helps.

[MartinHarper]

So, should I emphasis the up beat, or the down beat?

With the risk of contradicting someone who teaches musicality, when I hear "Wade in the Water", I don't see how it is making the up beats "stronger". The breaks are on down-beats. The bigger notes and important words (e.g., "Wade", "Water") are on down-beats.

In answer to your question, beginners and newer intermediates should certainly emphasize the down-beats, and will find themselves doing that naturally as a consequence of dancing Modern Jive moves. Beyond that, I'm less sure, but for myself I feel like continuing to routinely emphasize the down-beats is the right answer.

[Lou]

Its a bit like any sport it helps to know the rules but you have to practice to improve.

No one's denying that, Andy. In fact, that's what I was saying above - in that once they know the rules, an experienced dancer can play with them in order to make their dancing expressive.

With the risk of contradicting someone who teaches musicality, when I hear "Wade in the Water", I don't see how it is making the up beats "stronger". The breaks are on down-beats. The bigger notes and important words (e.g., "Wade", "Water") are on down-beats.

But that's exactly what Robert says here:

In its most basic form, musicality tends to consists of "hitting the breaks". For example there may be a break in the music (generally on an odd count, ie 1, 3, 5, 7) and one will lead a dip/comb/check/whatever on this break. However, musicality is not just about "hitting the breaks", it is also about how ones dancing looks in between those hits. This is where emphasizing the up beat comes into play.

It's those "initiating steps" that are important. Andy McG's R's if you like.

To do this we also make use of the upbeat, but not so much in terms of emphasizing it more in terms of "rolling" the action so that our body flight is as fluid as possible when we arrive on the down beat.

That's good. It's far better - and far more accurate - than what I was trying to say above. You have to arrive on the down beat for it to feel right, but it's the travelling that you can play with. And that's probably why it feels better to dance to popular MJ songs like Michael Buble's "Crazy Little Thing Called Love", when the upbeats are nicely highlighted by a tom (although Martin'll probably correct me, being a drummer), and all the breaks are on 1, than, say, All Saints' Rock Steady, where the emphasis is all wrong, or indeed Amy Winehouse's Rehab, where whilst the emphasis is on 1, the drum pattern is interesting. It's not that you can't dance to the latter 2 - it's just that the rhythm confuses a lot of dancers.

In answer to your question, beginners and newer intermediates should certainly emphasize the down-beats, and will find themselves doing that naturally as a consequence of dancing Modern Jive moves. Beyond that, I'm less sure, but for myself I feel like continuing to routinely emphasize the down-beats is the right answer.

...kinda.... except I would change "emphasize" to a different term. It's the state of having reached the position on the downbeat that's important. That doesn't need to be emphasized, as it's important enough on its own.

[Andy McGregor]

OOH!!! A discussion about beats and footwork. Caro is talking sense (good post Caro ) And Lou's here

What a shame I've got to do some work But, before I go, my opinion is that calling beats upbeat and downbeat is confusing

[Robert Winter]

...my opinion is that calling beats upbeat and downbeat is confusing

We, at least I, am not calling beats upbeat and downbeat. I am calling counts upbeat and downbeat.

[Lou]

Caro is talking sense (good post Caro ) And Lou's here

Ouch! Cheers Andy!

But, before I go, my opinion is that calling beats upbeat and downbeat is confusing

Grab your accoustic & just have a strum along to the music....

[ducasi]

The annoying answer to this question is both.

That's why I asked the question!

It depends on are you dancing an upbeat or a down beat style? For those who are unsure MJ is an upbeat dance (ie the initiating step is on the even count) and WCS is a down beat dance (ie the initiating step is on the odd count).

Hmm... This confused me...

Maybe because other people seem to be talking about the more emphatic completion steps, rather than the initiating steps, so one might figure that MJ is a downbeat dance, while WCS would then be an upbeat dance.

But I think I understand what you're saying...

For this reason WCS will often look more dynamic (in terms of its fluid look) than MJ because it is built to make better use of both the down and up beat. However, there are a number of "workarounds" which one can use in MJ to make our style look infinitely more amazing and fluid than it generally does. To do this we also make use of the upbeat, but not so much in terms of emphasizing it more in terms of "rolling" the action so that our body flight is as fluid as possible when we arrive on the down beat.

Our footwork naturally emphasises the down beats, and we can be clever with the up beats in other ways.

Lou, would you be kind enough to break down the movements in a first move to the beat, rather than the count?

Robert seems to be saying that the "step back" happens on beats 8&1 or 2&3... This is confusing me slightly...

[Caro]

Robert seems to be saying that the "step back" happens on beats 8&1 or 2&3... This is confusing me slightly...

I *think* the step back always happens on the downbeats, 1,3,5 and 7.
Somebody correct me please if I'm wrong.

Caro is talking sense (good post Caro )

I am making sense in Andy McGregor's world - I almost feel tainted

[ducasi]

I *think* the step back always happens on the downbeats, 1,3,5 and 7.
Somebody correct me please if I'm wrong.

But if the "step back" in two beats (one count) then it must happen either on 8&1 or 1&2 (plus 2&3 or 3&4, etc...) Which would you say it is?

Robert says that MJ initiates on even beats...

However, MJ differs in that our "completion step" is on the odd count (1 as we have taken our initiating step on the 8 of the previous phrase)

This would imply that at the start of every routine in class the semi-circle is on beat 1, and the step back is beats 2&3. No?