is this ridiculous or what ? (pt 93)

[DianaS]

No one causes an uproar over films depicting black men as white men and vice versa. Probably because its a uninteresting premise to base a whole film around and not worth watching. but racist ? not, as you say. without more to it.

The holocost wasn't long ago and it does cause offense.
As does Eysenks theory of race and intelligence, and many other topics. Its up to our judgement to decide what is appropriate and what may cause offence. Using our judgement is what we do every day. Certainly teachers shouldn't be bereted for using it.
But you should be Little smurf
BTW My sons were told they weren't fit to hold the bible at school and bullied why? because an RE teacher thought it was interesting that their dad is a rabbi. How bloody naive can you get in a secondary school

[Dreadful Scathe]

The holocost wasn't long ago and it does cause offense.

Who to? Denial or support of it can cause offense but I they just teach the facts as we know them in History. How can that be offensive?

Certainly teachers shouldn't be bereted for using it.
But you should be Little smurf

what? nothing you can say or do will force me to wear a French hat.

BTW My sons were told they weren't fit to hold the bible at school and bullied why? because an RE teacher thought it was interesting that their dad is a rabbi. How bloody naive can you get in a secondary school

Who is fit to hold a bible ? makes you wonder
Strangely I can remember absolutely nothing from my RE classes. Wonder why that is

[DianaS]

[QUOTE=Dreadful Scathe;359899]Who to? Denial or support of it can cause offense but I they just teach the facts as we know them in History. How can that be offensive?
QUOTE]
Question Monsier Smurf: Was Sir Frances Drake an explorer or a pirate?
Question 2: Was Adolf Hitler a loving family man who like dchildren or a mass murdering psychopath?
Question 3: Did the Jews "ask for it"? when 10% of the population who is non national own 40% of the wealth questions may bea asked#
Question 4: Is it a fact that Bill Clinton " Did not have sex with that woman? " Discuss
Question 5: Were British sailors in Iranian waters? and more importantly Why?

2000 words please in essay format for Monday
No excuses, Little Smurf. My arm is long and vengence total

[Dreadful Scathe]

You have not answered my question. How is teaching the holocaust posibly offensive? History is based on well documented facts , NOT opinion. Whatever anyone thinks of Jews, Nazis or anyone else does not alter the facts of history.

Question Monsier Smurf: Was Sir Frances Drake an explorer or a pirate?

Depends on who you ask, but a history lesson would give you the facts of what we know of him and you, and your learning peers, would make up your own minds.

Question 2: Was Adolf Hitler a loving family man who liked children or a mass murdering psychopath?

Neither. I dont think he had any children and he was not psychotic. He was a good Christian. However, its my opinion, and I imagine that of most Christians, that he left any Christian values he might have had far behind him to become what he did become. I am of this opinion because of what history I know of him. Learning about the past is good. Learning all of it in an unbiased fashion is better.

Question 3: Did the Jews "ask for it"? when 10% of the population who is non national own 40% of the wealth questions may bea asked

I think logic dictates that a race of people don't "ask" to be slaughtered, never mind history! And in nearly every country in the world 20% of the population has 80% of the wealth, so what "questions" did you have in mind? It's convenient for bigots that a lot of the 20% are in one group, it's easier to persecute them and take the wealth of them then. History tells me the jews have put up with that a lot.

Question 4: Is it a fact that Bill Clinton " Did not have sex with that woman? "

I still dont see what you're getting at. History will (and should, this being the point of this thread) teach us facts as we know them (and occasionaly dubious opinion taken as fact, but such is life). History shows us that Bill Clinton has a differing opinion to "sex" than most of the rest of the world. All the facts are there though, being relativly recent news ; and in fact we had this very conversation on another thread. Have you been asleep ?

If you have a point, I think I missed it.

[JiveLad]

On behalf of my fellow Norwegians, and any person of Viking ancestry, I hereby offer an apology for the actions of our people approx. 1000 years ago. I acnowledge the wrongs of the past, and in retrospect I realise that the Vikings' actions were deeply rooted in the Norse culture and love of sports, such as 'Raping and Pillaging' and 'Burning Churches' which were not recognised by the British, and also caused by certain communication problems.

I understand that our actions might have caused upset, and some degree of physical and psychological damage to some individuals who inhabited the British Isles at this time, and for this I am deeply sorry.

My great-great-great-great-great-great.......great-great grandmother left a note to say that Ola Nordmann was very gentle with her (and he was a good dancer too).

[andystyle]

...He was a good Christian...

*chokes on drink*

However, its my opinion, and I imagine that of most Christians, that he left any Christian values he might have had far behind him to become what he did become.

Phew!

[straycat]

what? nothing you can say or do will force me to wear a French hat.

If you wear a French hat, I'll give you a million quid.*


*no - not really

[jiveknight]

You have not answered my question. How is teaching the holocaust posibly offensive? History is based on well documented facts , NOT opinion. Whatever anyone thinks of Jews, Nazis or anyone else does not alter the facts of history.

Has anyone visited the holocaust museum in Washington DC? About 4 stories high - unforgettable stuff - original footage etc.
There are lessons to be learnt from it. One thing that struck me is how long generally people ignored the problem, it was "too incredible", or they turned a blind eye - even in the US.



Drake was a privateer...

[Mary]

I agree with teaching facts impartially, but there comes a problem if only some of the facts are taught. This can give a biased view of an event. People have been prosecuted unjustly because facts have been witheld!

Hitler loved children (no he didn't have any of his own, and he only had one testicle btw!) and he loved Eva Braun, so how does that equate with the 'monster' that I believe him to be based on the 'facts' that I was taught.

Take the horrific experiments carried out at Birkenau. In this day and age people feel they should be able to have routine surgical opertions as a right - this would not be possible if those atrocities had not been carried out. So can 'good' come from 'evil'?

If teachers themselves do not have all the facts then it's possible that they could be (unwittingly) teaching a biased view which could lead to offence and feelings of persecution.

OK, I'm probably taking a fairly extreme example. But in any argument or conflict there are always 2 sides to every story (even if one side is greed!). Do we always have all the facts to present both sides of a story?

Teaching facts is good - only if you have all the facts. IMHO.

M

[Mezzosoprano]

I agree with teaching facts impartially, but there comes a problem if only some of the facts are taught. This can give a biased view of an event. People have been prosecuted unjustly because facts have been witheld!

Hitler loved children (no he didn't have any of his own, and he only had one testicle btw!) and he loved Eva Braun, so how does that equate with the 'monster' that I believe him to be based on the 'facts' that I was taught.

Take the horrific experiments carried out at Birkenau. In this day and age people feel they should be able to have routine surgical opertions as a right - this would not be possible if those atrocities had not been carried out. So can 'good' come from 'evil'?

If teachers themselves do not have all the facts then it's possible that they could be (unwittingly) teaching a biased view which could lead to offence and feelings of persecution.

OK, I'm probably taking a fairly extreme example. But in any argument or conflict there are always 2 sides to every story (even if one side is greed!). Do we always have all the facts to present both sides of a story?

Teaching facts is good - only if you have all the facts. IMHO.

M

Eh?!?! It's okay for the Nazi's to have performed atrocities at Auschwitz Birkenau etc in the interests of medical science...that's tantamount to saying that joseph mengel (spelt that wrong probably) was just an ordinary doctor furthering the medical cause! Nope.... sorry but that's just plain wrong thinking...

It doesn't matter that Hitler loved Eva Braun (and I'm not even sure he did... I'd be very worried if my husband/ partner said to me "I love you dear.. the war is going very badly and we are going to lose so, I'm going to shoot you)... the people that he incarcerated and had exterminated had loved ones too. Who cares if he loved Eva Braun? He was a monster (a brilliant financial mind but none the less, a monster)

Hitler loved children... that's why had had so many of them killed or taken away from the parents and brought up in "pure" homes.... nope, the man did not love children.. I had a Polish friend who remembered, when he was young boy himself, seeing the German Stormtroopers smashing newborn babies heads against a hospital wall during the invastion of Poland... yeah, that Hitler, he really loved children

Sorry if folks don't agree - but I feel really strongly about this.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Eh?!?! It's okay for the Nazi's to have performed atrocities at Auschwitz Birkenau etc in the interests of medical science...that's tantamount to saying that joseph mengel (spelt that wrong probably) was just an ordinary doctor furthering the medical cause! Nope.... sorry but that's just plain wrong thinking...

Yes Im sure we all agree, but thats certainly not what Mary was saying!

Who cares if he loved Eva Braun? He was a monster (a brilliant financial mind but none the less, a monster)

Its strange that his love of his wife is completley unimportant to you but his brilliant financial mind is worthy of note

[Gus]

There have been a recent series of reports, to mark the 200 years since Britain abolished the Transatlantic Slave Trade. On one of the programmes (in the london area) one of the things that really got me was, a lady was talking about how people should be made to answer for this and that apologies should be made!!!

This reminds me of a scene out of a contemporary film about Custer. There was obviously great hatred felt by several of the Red Indian tribes about the damage done to them by the white man .... Custer countered this by pinting out that the Pawnee tribe had done just the same to the Souix tribe in previous years. In Africa there seems to be a backlash against Colonial slavery ... despite the fact that slavery existed in Africa well before the white man got in on the act ... in fact its still endemic in some parts.

I'm certainly NOt condoning slavery, wanton destruction of the colonial invasions ... but PLEASE lets not have this BS about attonement and apportinioning the blame of out forefathers on the decsendants. At a time when the Western world is being admonished for its historical sins against the muslim world, its only 60 years or so since the first Muslim state was created through the slaughetr of over 1 MILLION of its OWN countrymen (the segregation of India into India and Pakinstan).

Great Britain has some shame, but it has far more to be proud of. If people want to extract apologies and retirbuiton, why stop at the Empire ... why not look to Italy to apologise for the terrible wrongs committed by the legions of Rome?

[Spin dryer]

Teaching is a shi**y job made worse by the fact they are easy targets for sueing and litigation. The people who should be accountable are way above the teachers. It's the Judges, solicitors and MP's who allow PC'ness to over run the country, not the man who is trying to do his bit for childrens education but is afraid that he may say the wrong thing, no matter if it's true or not.

I'm a solicitor, and I've also taught. I've met many PC teachers, but have yet to meet a PC solicitor.

[Mezzosoprano]

Yes Im sure we all agree, but thats certainly not what Mary was saying!



Its strange that his love of his wife is completley unimportant to you but his brilliant financial mind is worthy of note

okay.... you're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine... I think it WAS what she was saying.

My other point re Eva Braun was that I hoped my husband didn't "love" me like that because if that's love I'm really, really worried.... and I did mention his "love" of Eva Braun - so to say that it was completely unimportant to me was incorrect.... I just added a little more information re his financial aptitudes! (forgive me for that... I am Scottish and I did work for HMRC for a while!)

[Dreadful Scathe]

okay.... you're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine... I think it WAS what she was saying.

Perhaps you should ask Mary but all I'm saying is you are reading your own bias into her post.

so to say that it was completely unimportant to me was incorrect

Only if you saying "who cares" means that YOU do

. I just added a little more information re his financial aptitudes! (forgive me for that... I am Scottish and I did work for HMRC for a while!)

Ill forgive you - i just thought it was funny that a "who cares" comment directed at a positive thing "love" is followed by a positive note about his financial aptitude

[Baruch]

I agree with teaching facts impartially, but there comes a problem if only some of the facts are taught. This can give a biased view of an event.

Teaching facts is good - only if you have all the facts. IMHO.

The problem is that nobody has all the facts, certainly not in school. Yes, some facts may well be taught impartially, but there is a certain amount of bias as to which facts are taught. That is unavoidable because there just isn't time to teach everything that has ever happened, but what is and is not taught can tell you a fair bit about the biases of those who set the curriculum.

For example, when I was in school I was taught about the Viking invasions of England, the monarchs of England, everyday life in mediaeval England and so on. Which sounds fine until you realise I went to school in Wales, not England. We were never taught about our own pre-conquest history (though we were taught plenty of what went on in England back then). We learned nothing of Glyndwr and his rebellion against the English king. All that tells me a lot about the biases of those who were in charge of history teaching at that time. Thankfully things have improved in that regard, though there is still quite a way to go.

[Mary]

okay.... you're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine... I think it WAS what she was saying.

Actually it's not what I was saying. The point I was trying to make (not very successfully) was that people have certain expectations today of routine surgical operations, but I don't think the vast majority of those people are aware of the true cost - i.e the horrific experiments carried out at Birkenau.

So can good come from evil in that many lives are routinely saved today around the world.........but at a terrible cost.

I agree about his financial mind. He was a brilliant chancellor of the exchequer, and turned the country around from galloping inflation to a financially stable country (as I am given to understand by a researcher who specialised in the subject).

M

[Baruch]

I'm a solicitor, and I've also taught. I've met many PC teachers, but have yet to meet a PC solicitor.

Maybe, but teachers do tend to get criticised frequently by the government (often for doing what they've told us to do) because they want to look like they're improving education. At the same time we often get criticised by parents for "failing" their children. We have pressure from both sides, and any respect we may have had in the past has been rapidly eroding of late. We are used as a political football; we have to cope with new initiatives from the government with depressing regularity and often with inadequate training or preparation beforehand; many teachers' careers and reputations have been ruined by malicious accusations from children; stress levels are very high and morale is often low. Is it any wonder that we teachers often feel we have to be extra-careful? After all, recent history has shown that if we get into trouble there's nobody apart from our own unions who's willing to back us up.

[Mary]

The problem is that nobody has all the facts, certainly not in school. Yes, some facts may well be taught impartially, but there is a certain amount of bias as to which facts are taught. That is unavoidable because there just isn't time to teach everything that has ever happened, but what is and is not taught can tell you a fair bit about the biases of those who set the curriculum.

For example, when I was in school I was taught about the Viking invasions of England, the monarchs of England, everyday life in mediaeval England and so on. Which sounds fine until you realise I went to school in Wales, not England. We were never taught about our own pre-conquest history (though we were taught plenty of what went on in England back then). We learned nothing of Glyndwr and his rebellion against the English king. All that tells me a lot about the biases of those who were in charge of history teaching at that time. Thankfully things have improved in that regard, though there is still quite a way to go.

So learners are dependant on the impartiality and integrity of the teachers. Which in itself can be subjective. And those teachers are equally dependant on their teachers.

M

[Baruch]

So learners are dependant on the impartiality and integrity of the teachers. Which in itself can be subjective. And those teachers are equally dependant on their teachers.

Indeed. It may sound like a noble ideal, but there is no such thing as unbiased teaching of history. Such a thing would be impossible.