is this ridiculous or what ? (pt 93)

[Dreadful Scathe]

According to the bbc today, some schools are avoid teaching the Holocaust and other controversial history subjects as they do not want to cause offence.

I wonder what's controversial about the holocaust then ?

Theres a few great quotes in the article but this is , by far, my favourite...

In particular settings, teachers of history are unwilling to challenge highly contentious or charged versions of history in which pupils are steeped at home, in their community or in a place of worship.

In other words, teachers are unwilling to teach the truth as we know it in case it conflicts with the lies told elsewhere. Go education system! woo!

Is it too late to move to Norway

[Lee Bartholomew]

Brilliant.

I think kids nowdays aren't (in general) or at least aren't willing to learn about things such as History anyway. Guess the schools just go with whats easiest and will give them less agro.

[ducasi]

I'd agree that teaching about slavery and the crusades has to be done carefully to make it clear that these things were misguided (if you excuse the understatement!)

Young kids can too easily pick up on bad ideas expressed without care.

I have no doubt that some teaching about the Holocaust has resulted in greater anti-semitic feelings from kids who perhaps are facing moral dilemmas between what they are taught at school and what they hear at home.

[Lory]

There have been a recent series of reports, to mark the 200 years since Britain abolished the Transatlantic Slave Trade. On one of the programmes (in the london area) one of the things that really got me was, a lady was talking about how people should be made to answer for this and that apologies should be made!!!

Now IMO, these sort of remarks are the kind of thing which inflame and insight bad feelings in people..

My immediate reaction was.... this was 200 years ago, no one alive today should be made to feel responsible for the actions of their ancestors!

How does this relates to the topic.....

Well, I'm absolutely in favour people being taught the facts, learning about the gross misconduct's of our forefathers is very important. Holding discussions and debates about how things could have been avoided and how we must work together to avoid things like these happening in the future is powerful stuff.

But, if teachers aren't equipped to deal with pupils, who families may have indoctrinated them all their lives to believing 'an alternative' take on the truth, however misguided or misinformed, this may turn out to be a highly sensitive subject.

I can see that in schools, where we already have tenuous relationships between religious factions, the out fall might have repercussions far beyond the realms of what some young and inexperienced teachers can deal with!

I'm not saying I know the answer but I can see where the 'worry' is coming from.

[Barry Shnikov]

As to apologies for the past, that's something against which I recoil, smacking as it does of political correctness, dum di dum di dum.

However, in a very real sense the fortunes of the British Empire were founded on and improved by exploitation of other nations, and especially other races. If such things were going on today the perpetrator nation would be globally pilloried. Without the slave trade, England's fortunes would have been very, very different. While no person today can point at another person and say 'You owe me an apology for the slave trade', that doesn't allow us to be complacent about what happened.

[Barry Shnikov]

According to the bbc today, some schools are avoid teaching the Holocaust and other controversial history subjects as they do not want to cause offence.

As I have been saying elsewhere (pompous clearing of throat) once it is accepted that we are not to give offence, everything else just disintegrates. People must learn to deal with 'being offended' and stop whingeing.

[Caro]

Well, I'm absolutely in favour people being taught the facts, learning about the gross misconduct's of our forefathers is very important.
...
But, if teachers aren't equipped to deal with pupils, who families may have indoctrinated them all their lives to believing 'an alternative' take on the truth, however misguided or misinformed, this may turn out to be a highly sensitive subject.

I can see that in schools, where we already have tenuous relationships between religious factions, the out fall might have repercussions far beyond the realms of what some young and inexperienced teachers can deal with!

You see that's where I think the French system has got a point.
As you're literally forced to leave your religious beliefs at the school door (ok they got a bit tied up about the veil thing but now that's passed....), it's no business of the teacher to worry about what sort of indoctrination pupils receive at home. The teacher is here to teach history, and a few basic principles of what we call with passionate awe 'la republique'.

In other terms, sod the irrational beliefs when you're at (public) school.

ok I'm voluntarily talking about this in a slightly rough tone, but I do think there's a valid point in making pupils realise that religion and laic education are 2 different things, and that the former shall remain to the private sphere.

[Little Monkey]

There have been a recent series of reports, to mark the 200 years since Britain abolished the Transatlantic Slave Trade. On one of the programmes (in the london area) one of the things that really got me was, a lady was talking about how people should be made to answer for this and that apologies should be made!!!

My immediate reaction was.... this was 200 years ago, no one alive today should be made to feel responsible for the actions of their ancestors!

On behalf of my fellow Norwegians, and any person of Viking ancestry, I hereby offer an apology for the actions of our people approx. 1000 years ago. I acnowledge the wrongs of the past, and in retrospect I realise that the Vikings' actions were deeply rooted in the Norse culture and love of sports, such as 'Raping and Pillaging' and 'Burning Churches' which were not recognised by the British, and also caused by certain communication problems.

I understand that our actions might have caused upset, and some degree of physical and psychological damage to some individuals who inhabited the British Isles at this time, and for this I am deeply sorry.

Is it too late to move to Norway

On a more serious note - I agree with you, Lory. It becomes a bit silly when people are expected to take responsibility and feel guilty for something their ancestors several hundred years ago did. Yes, you should learn from history, and admit that what happened was wrong, but apart from that....? I mean, when do you stop? Should all Germans constantly go around and offer apologies to anyone who's ancestors may have been victims of the Holocaust or German bomb raids? Should Norwegians (and Swedes and Danes) apologise for what the Vikings did 1000 years ago? Then of course there's the crusades, and the slave trade, and.... There's been wars and crimes against humanity as long as humans have existed, so we've all got a lot to feel guilty for.............

Gosh I feel depressed.

[MartinHarper]

In other words, teachers are unwilling to teach the truth as we know it in case it conflicts with the lies told elsewhere.

Try reading the article with some empathy towards the teachers in question. You may find less need for "other words" that way.

[Sheepman]

So is it about time the whole of homo sapiens apologised for wiping out the neanderthals?

Greg

[Barry Shnikov]

So is it about time the whole of homo sapiens apologised for wiping out the neanderthals?

Greg

Er - I have no problem with that, just as soon as you find a neanderthal for me to apologise to.

O, and of course, I'll need a crash course in their language.

[ducasi]

So is it about time the whole of homo sapiens apologised for wiping out the neanderthals?

I would like to apologise to the dinosaurs for being a descendant of a species that survived when they were all wiped out. I regret the entirely passive role we played in this.

[killingtime]

So is it about time the whole of homo sapiens apologised for wiping out the neanderthals?

Nah... we're still here.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Try reading the article with some empathy towards the teachers in question. You may find less need for "other words" that way.

I always try to have empathy. This situation is not about individual teachers. Children are taught to a curriculum and should be taught history, which is part of it - I have no sympathy for teachers who leave out bits of it for whatever reason that might be. Censorship of that type is no encouragement to critical thinking - forewarned is forearmed - children can only learn from the mistakes of the past if they are actually taught about them!

I don't understand why I would think "other words" would not be necessary, when the original statement DOES imply that the truth is left out in case it contradicts downright lies. Surely these implications must be considered and not dismissed purely because the teachers are having a tough time of it. Thats what schooling is all about, you get ALL the facts but are taught to be open minded so that when/if further evidence appears it can be carefully considered. Deliberately leaving out information is censorship and teachers should be sacked for taking part.

[Lee Bartholomew]

I always try to have empathy. This situation is not about individual teachers. Children are taught to a curriculum and should be taught history, which is part of it - I have no sympathy for teachers who leave out bits of it for whatever reason that might be. Censorship of that type is no encouragement to critical thinking - forewarned is forearmed - children can only learn from the mistakes of the past if they are actually taught about them!

I don't understand why I would think "other words" would not be necessary, when the original statement DOES imply that the truth is left out in case it contradicts downright lies. Surely these implications must be considered and not dismissed purely because the teachers are having a tough time of it. Thats what schooling is all about, you get ALL the facts but are taught to be open minded so that when/if further evidence appears it can be carefully considered. Deliberately leaving out information is censorship and teachers should be sacked for taking part.

Thats a bit harsh. The core reason that the teachers are doing this is prob because they are afraid of loosing their jobs.

How much cack would a teacher be in if some Billy Big Chips parent stared complaining about a teacher saying theye were racist?

I can see the reasons behind what they are doing, but I don't feel it makes it right.

[killingtime]

I have no sympathy for teachers who leave out bits of it for whatever reason that might be.

Well I know someone who was handed out photocopied notes about the big bang theory because their physics teacher refused to teach it on religious grounds. That seems unacceptable to me as they were being tested on it as part of their GCSE. Even if you state "this is the currently accepted belief" which is all it really is (though through observation and rationale).

Of course the teaching of Intelligent Design as science (along with Evolution) was what started of the flying spaghetti monster.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Thats a bit harsh. The core reason that the teachers are doing this is prob because they are afraid of losing their jobs.

I stole your "O" , hope you don't mind

I don't think it's harsh at all. If children are not learning something due to bias, political correctness or because 1 child in the class is a moslem and may be offended - someone should be accountable. What happens with bias is only certain things are censored: e.g. don't teach about the Turkish slaughter of more than a million Armenians in the early 20th century in case Turkish children are offended but do teach about communism and the excesses of Stalin because it not politically sensitive anymore.[/quote]

How much cack would a teacher be in if some Billy Big Chips parent stared complaining about a teacher saying theye were racist?

Often when this happens there is a bias toward the complainant when there shouldn't be. Every complaint should be treated seriously but some (in fact a lot) or racisim complaints are PC nonsense. Take for example Councilor Brian Gordon who has "calls for his sacking" because he went to a fancy dress party as Nelson Mandela. "A spokeswoman for Mr Mandela said he thought the prank was quite funny" , but that comment was no doubt gained after some outraged person brought it to his attention with "WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THIS. RACIST ISN'T IT!!!!". er...No. No it isn't.

I can see the reasons behind what they are doing, but I don't feel it makes it right.

We cant expect to improve society without a free, unbiased and open exchange of ideas. Education is the basis for this.

[Lee Bartholomew]

I stole your "O" , hope you don't mind

I don't think it's harsh at all. If children are not learning something due to bias, political correctness or because 1 child in the class is a moslem and may be offended - someone should be accountable. What happens with bias is only certain things are censored: e.g. don't teach about the Turkish slaughter of more than a million Armenians in the early 20th century in case Turkish children are offended but do teach about communism and the excesses of Stalin because it not politically sensitive anymore.



Often when this happens there is a bias toward the complainant when there shouldn't be. Every complaint should be treated seriously but some (in fact a lot) or racisim complaints are PC nonsense. Take for example Councilor Brian Gordon who has "calls for his sacking" because he went to a fancy dress party as Nelson Mandela. "A spokeswoman for Mr Mandela said he thought the prank was quite funny" , but that comment was no doubt gained after some outraged person brought it to his attention with "WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THIS. RACIST ISN'T IT!!!!". er...No. No it isn't.



We cant expect to improve society without a free, unbiased and open exchange of ideas. Education is the basis for this.

I fully agree with 99% of what you are saying. My argument with what you are saying is the teachers being the ones accountable. Teaching is a shi**y job made worse by the fact they are easy targets for sueing and litigation. The people who should be accountable are way above the teachers. It's the Judges, solicitors and MP's who allow PC'ness to over run the country, not the man who is trying to do his bit for childrens education but is afraid that he may say the wrong thing, no matter if it's true or not.


P.s. Have a load of work you can proof read too if you like :-P

[Barry Shnikov]

Take for example Councilor Brian Gordon

You see, once something like the Commission for Racial Equality comes into being, it is trapped into being able to make only one response to something like this.

It simply cannot say 'Oh get real! A white man dressing up as a black man is not (without more) racist'. It just can't.

[Dreadful Scathe]

No one causes an uproar over films depicting black men as white men and vice versa. Probably because its a uninteresting premise to base a whole film around and not worth watching. but racist ? not, as you say. without more to it.