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Thread: The Zimbabwe Thread

  1. #21
    Registered User Keefy's Avatar
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    Re: The Zimbabwe Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    ps how many need to starve
    Ask the African Union that question, you might also want to ask them why buying guns is more important than buying food when their people are starving.

  2. #22
    Registered User Twirly's Avatar
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    Re: The Zimbabwe Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keefy View Post
    Leave them to it. It is a man made problem, it is an African problem, it is for them to solve.

    It is going to take mass starvation and mass death before Africa itself is forced to take notice and do something, all we are doing is delaying that day of realisation.


    I just hope that you are never hungry or injured and relying on the kindness of strangers.

    As Mr. Shnikov said, Europe helped to create the problems in Africa. Therefore we do have a responsibility to help sort things out.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: The Zimbabwe Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    As Mr. Shnikov said, Europe helped to create the problems in Africa. Therefore we do have a responsibility to help sort things out.
    Hmmm, not sure about that one.

    The whole Western Guilt thing has given a great excuse for African leaders to avoid actually fixing their own problems. Zimbabwe's a classic example of a country where the problems are entirely internally-generated. Britain didn't give it an inflation rate of, let's repeat that 25,000% (and that's just the official rate ), they did it all to themselves. And I can't see the UK being able to change the situation in any way.

    As for:
    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Invade from? Why

    A 3 day military campaign should be enough if the will was there

    Drop 10,000 troops in the bush and destabilize etc
    You are Dick Cheney AICMFP

  4. #24
    Registered User Keefy's Avatar
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    Re: The Zimbabwe Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    As Mr. Shnikov said, Europe helped to create the problems in Africa. Therefore we do have a responsibility to help sort things out.
    In the case of Zimbabwe we have no responsibility at all to 'sort things out'. How far back do you want this western world guilt trip to go? 10 years, 20, 50, 100, 200... ? In the specific case of Zimbabwe we have discharged any duty to them many, many times over. Out of nothing the west created a prosperous and self sufficient nation, Zimbabwe used to be the bread basket of Africa exporting food to other African states, now it is the basket case. That prosperous state was handed to the Zimbabwean people on a plate, since then countless £1m's in aid and assistance has been poured in. The mess it is in now is entirely the fault of that country and the other African states that support it.

    Of course I feel compassion for the starving of that country, but throwing a few quid in a tin and feeling self righteous about it solves nothing. In fact all that it would achieve is direct financial assistance to the regime that created the problem and it would strengthen their hold on power, thus ensuring that next week I need to put even more money in the tin because even more people are starving.

    The underlying problems need to be solved, they can only be solved by the Zimbabwean people and the other states of the African Union. Chucking money and food aid at it just hides the problem and makes the eventual resolution that much more distant.

  5. #25
    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: The Zimbabwe Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post

    As for:

    You are Dick Cheney AICMFP

    serious point, relatively it would take little to enforce a regim change

    ps

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    If I were who? The PM? Or just, you know, me?
    I think you setting up a Tango class wont help much so you would have to be someone else, sorry
    Last edited by stewart38; 22nd-January-2008 at 05:09 PM.

  6. #26
    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: The Zimbabwe Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keefy View Post
    In the case of Zimbabwe we have no responsibility at all to 'sort things out'. How far back do you want this western world guilt trip to go? 10 years, 20, 50, 100, 200... ? In the specific case of Zimbabwe we have discharged any duty to them many, many times over. Out of nothing the west created a prosperous and self sufficient nation, Zimbabwe used to be the bread basket of Africa exporting food to other African states, now it is the basket case. That prosperous state was handed to the Zimbabwean people on a plate, since then countless £1m's in aid and assistance has been poured in. The mess it is in now is entirely the fault of that country and the other African states that support it.

    Of course I feel compassion for the starving of that country, but throwing a few quid in a tin and feeling self righteous about it solves nothing. In fact all that it would achieve is direct financial assistance to the regime that created the problem and it would strengthen their hold on power, thus ensuring that next week I need to put even more money in the tin because even more people are starving.

    The underlying problems need to be solved, they can only be solved by the Zimbabwean people and the other states of the African Union. Chucking money and food aid at it just hides the problem and makes the eventual resolution that much more distant.
    Following this absurd logic you will be saying next we should stop subsidizing the Scots ?

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    Re: The Zimbabwe Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Following this absurd logic you will be saying next we should stop subsidizing the Scots ?

    Which bit is absurd?

    I thought this was a well thought out post given the situation and history of the country.

  8. #28
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: The Zimbabwe Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    serious point, relatively it would take little to enforce a regim change
    Oh, rubbish. Are you trying to wind me up or what?

    To quote Wikipedia:
    Currently the armed forces of Zimbabwe are completely integrated and are composed of an army (ZNA) and an air force (AFZ). The ZNA currently has an active duty strength of 30,000. The air force has about 5,000 men assigned. In July 1994 the combined Zimbabwe Defence Forces Headquarters was created. The branches are Zimbabwe National Army, Air Force of Zimbabwe, Zimbabwe Republic Police (includes Police Support Unit, Paramilitary Police).
    The army's got 4 brigades, they've got tanks, they've got APCs, they've got artillery.

    And Mugabe has to keep them sweet - armed force is keeping him in power after all.

    Use of military force is almost inconceivable - at the very least, the we (the US, to be honest) would have to use a neighbouring country as a willing staging base. Flying troops over an unfriendly country, to land unsupported and uncoordinated, is basically killing them.

  9. #29
    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: The Zimbabwe Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    Which bit is absurd?

    I thought this was a well thought out post given the situation and history of the country.
    Well how does it read for Scotland, could say the same thing ?

    £11 billion of English money heads for Edinburgh each year

    The Union of England and Scotland is over - Telegraph

    Quote Originally Posted by Keefy View Post
    In the case of Scotland we have no responsibility at all to 'sort things out'. How far back do you want this western world guilt trip to go? 10 years, 20, 50, 100, 200... ? In the specific case of Scotland we have discharged any duty to them many, many times over. Out of nothing the west created a prosperous and self sufficient nation, England used to be the bread basket of Scotland exporting food to Scotland, now it is the basket case. That prosperous state was handed to the Scotsish people on a plate, since then countless £1m's in aid and assistance has been poured in. The mess it is in now is entirely the fault of that country and the other Politians that support it.

    Of course I feel compassion for the starving of that country, but throwing a few quid in a tin and feeling self righteous about it solves nothing. In fact all that it would achieve is direct financial assistance to the regime that created the problem and it would strengthen their hold on power, thus ensuring that next week I need to put even more money in the tin because even more people are starving.

    The underlying problems need to be solved, they can only be solved by the Scottish people and the other states of the Scottish Union. Chucking money and food aid at it just hides the problem and makes the eventual resolution that much more distant.

  10. #30
    Registered User Keefy's Avatar
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    Re: The Zimbabwe Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Following this absurd logic you will be saying next we should stop subsidizing the Scots ?
    I am saying that we should stop subsidising Zanu PF by providing them with a means to stay in power. Zimbabwe has a monopoly grain supplier called the Grain Marketing Board (GMB), all grain produced in the country, imported or donated is distributed via the GMB. You think it's actually going to the people who need it? Think again...

    allAfrica.com: Zimbabwe: 'No Zanu PF Card, No Food' Scam Exposed (Page 1 of 1)
    allAfrica.com: Zimbabwe: Maize Being Used to 'Bribe Voters', Causing Shortages (Page 1 of 1)

    Just be aware of exactly what it is you are supporting when you say that we should be giving food aid. What is needed is regime change, the aid going into Zimbabwe is propping up that very regime

  11. #31
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    Re: The Zimbabwe Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Well how does it read for Scotland, could say the same thing ?

    £11 billion of English money heads for Edinburgh each year

    The Union of England and Scotland is over - Telegraph
    Lost me, as we were talking about Zimbabwe.

  12. #32
    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: The Zimbabwe Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Oh, rubbish. Are you trying to wind me up or what?

    To quote Wikipedia:


    The army's got 4 brigades, they've got tanks, they've got APCs, they've got artillery.

    And Mugabe has to keep them sweet - armed force is keeping him in power after all.

    Use of military force is almost inconceivable - at the very least, the we (the US, to be honest) would have to use a neighbouring country as a willing staging base. Flying troops over an unfriendly country, to land unsupported and uncoordinated, is basically killing them.

    Never said it would be easy or the solution (you sure there isnt a coast line ?)

    I mean invading a country with a million men at arms took over 6 weeks to finish

    Maybe they just take him out and make a movie out of it ?

    I dont want any defeatest talk in my army
    Last edited by stewart38; 22nd-January-2008 at 05:54 PM.

  13. #33
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    Re: The Zimbabwe Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keefy View Post
    I am saying that we should stop subsidising Zanu PF by providing them with a means to stay in power. Zimbabwe has a monopoly grain supplier called the Grain Marketing Board (GMB), all grain produced in the country, imported or donated is distributed via the GMB. You think it's actually going to the people who need it? Think again...

    allAfrica.com: Zimbabwe: 'No Zanu PF Card, No Food' Scam Exposed (Page 1 of 1)
    allAfrica.com: Zimbabwe: Maize Being Used to 'Bribe Voters', Causing Shortages (Page 1 of 1)

    Just be aware of exactly what it is you are supporting when you say that we should be giving food aid. What is needed is regime change, the aid going into Zimbabwe is propping up that very regime

    Who said we should give them food aid , im about to invade

    Serioulsy this is a much better reason argument and ill go find that tin

    The point i am trying to make is yes we can say 'we owe africa nothing' but then China comes through the back door

  14. #34
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: The Zimbabwe Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Never said it would be easy or the solution (you sure there isnt a coast line ?)
    Google maps is sure.

    By my reckoning, the closest border to the sea is 200 miles - and Harare's about 500 miles away from the closest ocean.

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    I mean invading a country with a million men at arms took over 6 weeks to finish
    Yeah. that worked so well, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Maybe they just take him out and make a movie out of it ?
    Somehow, I suspect that he may have taken precautions against that - he's not exactly well-beloved...

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    I dont want and defeatest talk in my army
    "Stewart's army is on their way..."

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    Re: The Zimbabwe Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Never said it would be easy or the solution (you sure there isnt a coast line ?)

    I mean invading a country with a million men at arms took over 6 weeks to finish

    Maybe they just take him out and make a movie out of it ?

    I dont want any defeatest talk in my army
    Following your logic and your reference to Scotland, maybe instead of spending 11B we should invade Scotland...

    Rhtorical question, Scotland is not the topic.

  16. #36
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    Re: The Zimbabwe Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    Following your logic and your reference to Scotland, maybe instead of spending 11B we should invade Scotland...
    Good plan. Let's first infiltrate their forums...

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    Re: The Zimbabwe Thread

    I don't know what should be done about Zimbabwe. I wish I did. I'm glad you guys are thinking about it though, it gives me hope.

    With regard to whoever it was who piped up about the land belonging to black Zimbabweans, yes obviously you're kind of right. But why didn't the land reforms happen until all of a sudden, after about 20 years of independence? They messed up, big time.

    Fault-wise, I blame Mugabe. I don't know if a military coup would be any better, I think a democratically elected opposition would but then what are the chances of that? If the opportunity ever arose, I would be seriously tempted to knock off Mugabe myself, and trust to fate. I used to hatch plans to sneak into his house and do the deed when I was younger.

    Anyway, I desperately hope something good happens soon. It has been too long.

    Dan

  18. #38
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    Re: The Zimbabwe Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Following this absurd logic you will be saying next we should stop subsidizing the Scots ?
    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    £11 billion of English money heads for Edinburgh each year
    Could you just pay my share straight into my bank account?

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    maybe instead of spending 11B we should invade Scotland...
    Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough

  19. #39
    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: The Zimbabwe Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    Following your logic and your reference to Scotland, maybe instead of spending 11B we should invade Scotland...

    Rhtorical question, Scotland is not the topic.
    Its called an analogy

    see here

    Analogy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  20. #40
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    Re: The Zimbabwe Thread

    I saw in the news just now that the official inflation rate in Zimbabwe has reached 66,000%.

    Is that some sort of record?

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