Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

[andystyle]

Yeah - well - we've always been suckers when it comes to impressing chicks

Oh dear...

[straycat]

Oh dear...

Don't you just hate it when someone discards all your carefully argued points, and makes a rubbish throwaway joke about one tiny part of it?
(It was a good post though. Yours, I mean)

[andystyle]

Don't you just hate it when someone discards all your carefully argued points, and makes a rubbish throwaway joke about one tiny part of it?

Never seen that happen.

(It was a good post though. Yours, I mean)

Thank you.

[ducasi]

[...] acupuncture methods have been proven to be effective in some ways - pain relief, for example. However, like reiki acupuncture theory waffles on about 'chi' and flowing and balancing and blocking of 'energies' and 'forces' and so Acupuncture as a whole discipline is still unproven. [...]

Assuming that acupuncture doesn't involve "chi", "energy flows" and the like – do you have any theories as to how it does work?

[Barry Shnikov]

do we know that much really? yes we have clues as to how the universe works, but do you seriously think that we know enough to totally rule out the existence of 'something' which we don't grasp yet that makes it all work in that very way we understand?

That wasn't quite what I said. Of course I don't believe in god, so I don't believe such a situation would result in them getting a visit from him. And I think it is unlikely that they are going to feel the need to invent a god.

Don't get me wrong Barry as I don't believe in the existence of god either, yet I wouldn't be as arrogant (and yet I'm French ) as to say that a god cannot exist (but I'll give you it's likely it doesn't).

Are the french supposed to be arrogant?
I don't think it is arrogant to state vigorously that there is no god. It only appears arrogant because a) people have accepted the concept of supernatural divinity for such a long time and b) believers get so touchy about the whole thing. I am just calmly, mildly, stating that there is no god. Why is that a problem? Nobody accuses people of being arrogant if they announce, calmly and mildly, that there is a god.

Ignorance is the mother of all evils they say... I wonder if ignorance of ignorance is the God of all evils

That went over my head...

with the current level of knowledge we have from science... yes.
See what I'm getting at?

Er...yeah. If there is anything without our universe, other universes, eg., then the cosmological constants there will be different. No way we could move things from one universe to another. The best we can expect is a mathematical proof of their existence that is unassailable.

Consider for a minute the development of sciences in the past 500 years. From Copernic to today scientists.
Do you really believe here that we have already uncovered most of what was to be uncovered?
At what sort of level scientific knowledge will we be in 500, or 5000 years from now?

The thing is, all the material was there right to start with. It just took science time to develop the technologies required to carry out the experiments in order to reach conclusions.
I think the main breakthrough was Einstein's proof that matter and energy are two aspects of the same thing.
The main undiscovered thing now is dark matter and dark energy. To be fair, these are big issues. One theory suggests that all matter with which we can interact makes up about 1% of the material in the universe...and the problem is that this dark matter has mass, that is, it is mainly postulated to get over the fact that galaxies are not massive enough for stars to clump together - they ought to just wander off. The fact that they do clump together has made cosmologists wonder if there isn't something else out there - we can't see it, it doesn't interact with electromagnetic radiation, doesn't interact with cosmic particles.

[Barry Shnikov]

Precisely. We can measure the effect of gravity but we can't measure gravity itself. I have a suitably open mind with regards to reiki and the like, and whilst you may not be able to measure the primary emission (gravity, healing energy and the like), you can still see its effect. Granted, the effect of gravity is a lot more measurable and constant, but I'm using this as an anlogy and not a direct comparison. Just because we can't measure healing energy etc doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

That's cobblers.

And you know what? I think you know it as well as I do.

[Barry Shnikov]

I'm not quoting Andystyle because before long one of our posts will take up an entire page.

The thing about god revealing himself to some people and not otherwise is that it is fundamentally unjust.

If he is going to judge everyone, as promised, why should some of them benefit from favourable treatment? Contradicts the claim that he is both merciful and just, doesn't it?

Oops. Argument from design. Surely - especially as a designer - you cannot take that seriously? Apart from anything else if the universe needs a designer then god needs an even more sophisticated and almighty designer. If god doesn't need a designer, neither does the universe. Second, I bet you would take all of 30 seconds to name 5 ways in which you could improve the design of the human body.

OK, I'll accept your illustration of Jesus' prophecy about Israel resurrected as evidence. But good grief - it's a bit weak, isn't it? Also, we have all sorts of problems with the provenance of the new testament texts and whether we can in any meaningful (non-religious) sense accept that anybody called 'Jesus' ever said any of the things that were attributed to him at all.

God is good. Allahu akbar. It is one of the biggest mysteries to me how gods get away with having the credit for kittens and magnificent scenery but not having to carry the can for ebola and concentration camps. Hey ho.

[Baruch]

Hey, the threads aren't 'my' debates-crusades.

Really? Then how come you jump on pretty much every mention of religious faith and without fail end up turning the thread to yet another debate about the existence or non-existence of a deity? Sounds like a crusade to me, and as you're generally the one instigating them...

Look, we get it, OK? You don't believe in God, and you think those of us who do are in the wrong. That doesn't mean you have to hijack every thread that mentions an aspect of religious belief and turn it into a repeat of every other debate we've had on the subject. There are plenty of threads that have gone down that road already, after all.

[Lynn]

Look, we get it, OK? You don't believe in God, and you think those of us who do are in the wrong. That doesn't mean you have to hijack every thread that mentions an aspect of religious belief and turn it into a repeat of every other debate we've had on the subject. There are plenty of threads that have gone down that road already, after all.

This is a thread I would have engaged with, but it pretty soon turned into the 'BS anti belief show' - yet again.

[Barry Shnikov]

So - you're saying that Keira Knightley could conceivably help you see God?**

I'd certainly be prepared to let her try...

[Barry Shnikov]

Assuming that acupuncture doesn't involve "chi", "energy flows" and the like – do you have any theories as to how it does work?

Nope. Just remember reading that trials have shown it to be somewhat effective in pain treatment.

Wouldn't surprise me at all if some acupuncture points also turned out to be on neural pathways and clusters...

[Beowulf]

Nope. Just remember reading that trials have shown it to be somewhat effective in pain treatment.

Wouldn't surprise me at all if some acupuncture points also turned out to be on neural pathways and clusters...

I've always liked the idea of flooding. You over stimulate the nerve and your brain desensitises it. Which is why you can get capisum (Chilli / pepper) creams from the doctor for muscle pain. it "burns" when you put it on, and deadens the pain. Kind of like a herbal TENS machine.

I've always considered Acupuncture to work on a similar principle. But then I've never had it done, so what do I know.

[Barry Shnikov]

Really? Then how come you jump on pretty much every mention of religious faith and without fail end up turning the thread to yet another debate about the existence or non-existence of a deity? Sounds like a crusade to me, and as you're generally the one instigating them...

Look, we get it, OK? You don't believe in God, and you think those of us who do are in the wrong. That doesn't mean you have to hijack every thread that mentions an aspect of religious belief and turn it into a repeat of every other debate we've had on the subject. There are plenty of threads that have gone down that road already, after all.

You don't get it.

I start from the basis that religion is untrue and at least as dangerous as it is helpful. I consider that the lot of human kind will be immeasurably improved once these myths and fables are consigned to history. That's why I responded in this thread.

While it's OK for everyone to post their opinions here I don't see why I should not post my contrary opinions (where appropriate) and agreement (where appropriate) to what other people post.

It should be noted that my posts become more vehement as other people join in the fray. It's not like I posted 'Will's a plonker and everything he says is nonsense'.

However, as at this time I'm not in the mood to offend anyone, I'm going to 'down tools' for a bit.

(The above statement, however, is subject to amendment or suspension if an egregiously woo-woo post makes it impossible for me to keep my hand over my mouth.)

[Barry Shnikov]

I've always liked the idea of flooding. You over stimulate the nerve and your brain desensitises it. Which is why you can get capisum (Chilli / pepper) creams from the doctor for muscle pain. it "burns" when you put it on, and deadens the pain. Kind of like a herbal TENS machine.

I've always considered Acupuncture to work on a similar principle. But then I've never had it done, so what do I know.

Could be.

I wonder if they have curry creams for that as well? Don't see why mexican food should be any better at it than indian...

[Baruch]

You don't get it.

I start from the basis that religion is untrue and at least as dangerous as it is helpful. I consider that the lot of human kind will be immeasurably improved once these myths and fables are consigned to history. That's why I responded in this thread.

Not wanting to descend into the realms of "Oh no you don't! Oh yes you do!" but believe me, I do get it. I've read your arguments so often, it would be a miracle if I didn't. The point I'm trying to make is that there are already plenty of other threads you can carry on this sort of argument in to your heart's content, without constantly having to hijack new threads.

I suppose the moderators disagree, otherwise something might have been done (more thread splits?) before, but to me this constant hijacking of religion-based threads to make them into religion v. atheism debates is deliberately taking those threads off-topic.

Would any moderator care to comment?

While it's OK for everyone to post their opinions here I don't see why I should not post my contrary opinions (where appropriate) and agreement (where appropriate) to what other people post.

I have no problem with you stating your opinions. What I do have a problem with is the way you frequently take "religion" threads off-topic.

We know your views on religion; however, sometimes some of us would like to be able to discuss it from our own perspective without constantly having to justify ourselves to you. If religion is a delusion, leave us to our delusion once in a while. You can debate / argue the non-existence of God to your heart's content elsewhere, and there are plenty of people who'd be glad to join in that debate with you in the proper thread.

It should be noted that my posts become more vehement as other people join in the fray.

A fair point. So everyone else who's been debating with Barry about the existence of God, how about giving it a rest here and engaging with him over on the Religious Beliefs thread instead? Please?

However, as at this time I'm not in the mood to offend anyone, I'm going to 'down tools' for a bit.

Thank you.

[andystyle]

So. Now that the religion v atheism discussion should carry on here, does anyone have anything else to add in this thread?

From a personal view, I'm getting baptised this Sunday and I'm very much looking forward to it.

[Lynn]

Giving this thread another chance to actually be somewhere people can discuss religious beliefs and experiences (which is what the thread was about before it was hijacked).

From a personal view, I'm getting baptised this Sunday and I'm very much looking forward to it.

On Easter Sunday - that's a good day for it!

Anyone else see Sinitta on GMTV this morning?

[Baruch]

From a personal view, I'm getting baptised this Sunday and I'm very much looking forward to it.

Great stuff! I hope the day goes well. As Lynne said, Easter is a very good day to be baptised, as it symbolises death and resurrection to new life.

I can remember my own baptism, way back in the late eighties. It was a really unique and special experience.

[Astro]

Sunday morning managed to crawl out of bed, still in similar discomfort and head off to Church. At the end of the talk, the guy doing the talk suggests that anyone with bad knees or a bad back should go forward for prayer. So I somewhat reluctantly went forward as this sounded particularly relevant to me with my bad back.

I must admit that I've always harboured a little scepticism about healing even though Jesus healed people and told us to do it also by praying in his name.

Dancers, I know there are some bad backs out there... And I respect the fact that there are some differences of opinion on whether God even exists. But if he does, he can only say yes or no. If he doesn't, what have you got to lose? If you want some who's currently riding quite high in faith to pray for you, then pm me...

Sorry folks, but in the interest of fairness to Barry, here are quotes from Will's very first post on this thread.

[jiveknight]

Sorry folks, but in the interest of fairness to Barry, here are quotes from Will's very first post on this thread.

It seems to have helped him. That's great!

People have different reactions to help - I think most people think it is possible to help someone, some though are wary about it and some have been betrayed or let down so much (or not been able to help someone themselves when they wanted to) that help as a subject to them isn't possible or seems so.