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Thread: Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

  1. #101
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    Re: Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    OK. My belief is that these energy and balancing theories are fundamentally correct, either in the literal sense, or, possibly, as suitable metaphors interpreting and a more 'physical' reality. My own experiences have shown me evidence to reinforce this belief. I remain, however, receptive to other explanations.
    you know guys (Barry and SC), I actually don't think you disagree that much with each other ... ... at least on the scientific grounds.
    well, unless Barry wants to make the case that god is scientifically proven not to exist. (you wouldn't want to do that Barry, would you? )


    Of course, your beliefs differ much in that Barry rejects everything that is not backed up by the current knowledge in science whereas Stray is open to the possibility that science might not (yet?) explain everything and is therefore willing to accept theories that haven't been (scientifically) proven.


    Of course the whole argument is entertaining because Barry tries and takes extreme examples and dismisses with scathing malice anything that's not 100% backed up by science, while Stray patiently tries and opens up Barry to the possibility that he might not know everything about the world... (as to say he's trying to open Barry's chakras... )

    Or I am fundamentally wrong here?

    And why oh why do I feel the need to jump in the battle ground?

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    Re: Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

    Quote Originally Posted by andystyle View Post
    My point is this. As science is not infallible, then we cannot say it 100% disproves the existence of a supreme being, be it the Christian God or the Muslim God or any other entity.
    There seems to be some kind of misunderstanding on the forum; people keep talking about 'scientific facts' as though there are different kinds of facts. A fact is a fact is a fact.

    Science doesn't have to disprove the existence of god; it's just a fact that no gods exist.

    If the proponents of any one of the literally thousands of gods, the existence of which has been claimed by humans over the centuries, wishes to prove the existence of that god, let's get to it. I can't see how they could do that without using scientific principles, but that would be up to them.

    All that happens is that people assert (relying on the Bible, or the Koran, or some other book, or some unexplained feeling they once had or often have, or because somone else told them, or because millions of people believe in it, or literally whatever) that there is a god, and then as soon as someone says 'Don't be ridiculous, cannot be true', they jump up and shout 'Prove it!'

    Won't wash. It's up to the allegor to prove, basic principle of philosophy, science, law, politics, every field of human endeavour except religion, where we are supposed to swallow the most egregious nonsense because 'you can't prove otherwise'.

  3. #103
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    Re: Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    There seems to be some kind of misunderstanding on the forum; people keep talking about 'scientific facts' as though there are different kinds of facts. A fact is a fact is a fact.

    Science doesn't have to disprove the existence of god; it's just a fact that no gods exist.
    We seem to be going round in circles (no - really?):
    Barry: This is a fact.
    Me (or someone else) no it isn't - and this is why.
    Barry: No - it's a fact.
    Me (or someone else) no it isn't - and this is a detailed explanation as to why.
    Barry: No - it's a fact.
    etc.
    etc.
    etc.

    Starting to notice a trend here.
    Bored now.
    Last edited by straycat; 4th-April-2007 at 01:26 PM.

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    Registered User andystyle's Avatar
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    Re: Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Science doesn't have to disprove the existence of god; it's just a fact that no gods exist.
    ...in your opinion

    As I stated before, science is not infallible. Put another way, it can't answer/prove/disprove everything...at least not yet. Until it can, there will be a divide between fact and theory. Therefore, logically, there is the possibility that God exists.

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    Re: Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    I'm sorry, I have absolutely no idea what you mean by that. Or if it is actually a meaningful sentence.
    It means that science does not yet have the tools/knowledge to actually test all your "woo woo" stuff. This is why the "woo woo" stuff cannot be proven. Science is pretty new in comparrison to say, Reiki for instance. Science as we know it was born in the Age of Reason.


    Oh, I get it!! It's a huge great global conspiracy between corporate interests, scientists, and statisticians, to fool the rest of us - er - non-scientific, statistically-illiterate - um - consumers into believing what they want us to believe.
    Yes, Barry you have hit the nail on the head there, but we can fight back with the pooling of information via the internet.[/quote]
    I'm sorry, I don't know you except through this forum but that is cloud-cuckoo land.
    I can't wait to meet you and to have a dance! [quote]

    I think you mean osteopath, unless there are hormonal elements in his treatments...
    yes, osteopath.


    I don't understand why people go traipsing off to let somebody whose medical training is based on pure supposition and speculation treat them for serious illnesses.
    There will always be charlatans in any profession. If I needed a plumber I would not look in the yellow pages, I would ask around for recomendations. Why is it possible to get acapuncture on the NHS? Has this type of healing being scientifically proven yet?

  6. #106
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    Re: Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    Or I am fundamentally wrong here?
    Apart from the fact that your words, intentionally or otherwise, suggest that the difference is that my mind is 'closed' whilst Stray's is 'open', no.

    I'll repeat myself. To accept even a fraction of woo-woo theories requires not only that science hasn't discovered some things yet, but that virtually the whole of science must be abandoned. That is the difficulty I have. It is one thing to say 'Science doesn't really know what dark matter is', it's another to say 'there is some life force which will make people ill and which reiki practitioners can re-align and make them better; some life force the explanation for which no known science is capable of even starting to speculate about, and which if it does exist will require complete revision of all our theories of physiology, cell biology, biochemistry, neurology, and even physics, seeing as this life force can apparently be affected by someone waving their hand at it'.

    It's long winded, and I'm sorry, but it's easy to say 'You've got a closed mind' but far harder to explain why that isn't actually so.

    I'd be delighted to learn that telepathy existed, or that there were people who could wave their hands over a cancer sufferer and destroy the tumour. Good grief, it would be fabulous. We would save no end of resources if we didn't need telephones and intercoms and nobody need ever die or live in miserable pain due to cancer. I would rejoice, whole heartedly.

    But it's just fairy tales. I have to share the planet with people who think it's OK to vilify homosexuals and threaten them with death because of the Old Testament, with people who think it's OK to scam sick and frail and frightened and vulnerable people out of large sums of money by pretending to have cures, and people who demand such obeisance to their god that they insist that sick people abandon proven treatments for (what even they must admit is) a small chance of a miracle cure. That makes me furious, and at this time my response is to try to persuade people that we should all be being a great deal more skeptical than we are. (Except me, I'm pretty much as skeptical as possible...)

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    Re: Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    we should all be being a great deal more skeptical than we are. (Except me, I'm pretty much as skeptical as possible...)
    Yeah We've noticed

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    Re: Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

    Quote Originally Posted by andystyle View Post
    ...in your opinion

    As I stated before, science is not infallible.
    First, science doesn't have to be infallible (be strange if it was the only human enterprise which was, wouldn't it?).
    Put another way, it can't answer/prove/disprove everything...at least not yet.
    It also doesn't have to attempt disproving the existence of god because there is absolutely nothing that a hypothetical neutral observer would accept as evidence of the existence of any god.
    (...) Therefore, logically, there is the possibility that God exists.
    Logically there is the possibility that Keira Knightley will turn into a nuclear powered aircraft carrier but nobody will waste any time trying to prove that it can't happen.

  9. #109
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    Re: Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    We seem to be going round in circles (no - really?):
    Barry: This is a fact.
    Me (or someone else) no it isn't - and this is why.
    Barry: No - it's a fact.
    Me (or someone else) no it isn't - and this is a detailed explanation as to why.
    Barry: No - it's a fact.
    etc.
    etc.
    etc.
    You left out all the bits - referred to by you where someone else does it as 'detailed explanations' - where I explain why I take the position I do.

  10. #110
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    Re: Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    it's just a fact that no gods exist.
    (it is a joke, isn't it? what a sense of humour you have Barry)

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Science doesn't have to disprove the existence of god;

    If the proponents of any one of the literally thousands of gods, the existence of which has been claimed by humans over the centuries, wishes to prove the existence of that god, let's get to it. I can't see how they could do that without using scientific principles, but that would be up to them.
    well that's not the debate, is it? What would be the point of trying to prove or disprove that any god ever invented in human history and culture exist, or doesn't? Because indeed, there's a pretty good chance that they don't - not any one of them. People make their god concept take which ever form they want and invent their own faith rules. Yahve, Jesus-son-of-God, Buddha, Zeus... for all I care they could call It Caro.

    It's IMOFO a little more interesting (as far as 'hard' science is concerned) to look at the concept of god, rather than the forms it has taken in our various cultures throughout the ages of human history...

    I.e. look at the concept of an omnipotent force that would be at the origin of the world we know. Now is there any scientific work that would provide any argument in favor or in defavor of this? i.e, what was before the Big Bang?

    And to come back to this thread, whether or not that omnipotent force could cure people in a way that would appear to us, miraculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Apart from the fact that your words, intentionally or otherwise, suggest that the difference is that my mind is 'closed' whilst Stray's is 'open', no.


    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    To accept even a fraction of woo-woo theories requires not only that science hasn't discovered some things yet, but that virtually the whole of science must be abandoned.
    What's so incompatible with current medecine in the theory that we might have energy flows in some way shape or form running through the body?
    The whole of our nervous system is based on electrical flows...
    Last edited by Caro; 4th-April-2007 at 03:04 PM.

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    Registered User andystyle's Avatar
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    Re: Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    First, science doesn't have to be infallible (be strange if it was the only human enterprise which was, wouldn't it?).
    In fact, there were seven Enterprises throughout 5 series and 10 films...oh, hang on, you didn't mean that did you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    It also doesn't have to attempt disproving the existence of god because there is absolutely nothing that a hypothetical neutral observer would accept as evidence of the existence of any god.
    ...in your opinion. Others have a different opinion.

    You can use a hypothetical neutral observer if you like, but I doubt there's such a thing - everyone has their own prejudices, ideas, opinions etc. If I was to set up a neutral observer in this way, he (or she) would likely arrive at a different conclusion to your neutral observer if subjected to the exact same thing. The reason being that my perception of what a neutral observer should take away from something would be different from what your perception of what a neutral observer should take away from something. I'm afraid your point then becomes somewhat invalid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Logically there is the possibility that Keira Knightley will turn into a nuclear powered aircraft carrier but nobody will waste any time trying to prove that it can't happen.
    Of course it's a possibility. A remote one, granted, but a possibility. What would be the mechanism? How would it occur? You've asked similar questions about reiki, healing though touching etc - just because we can't answer those questions doesn't mean the mechanism isn't there. If you logically accept there is the possibility of a human becoming a large ship, then I don't see how you can ignore the logic of the possibility of God existing, no matter how remote that possibility may be.

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    Re: Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

    I'd like to add to the above - when I acknowledge the above possibility of Ms. Knightly transforming into a warship, I would also like to state I find it an improbability!

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    Re: Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

    Quote Originally Posted by andystyle View Post
    I'd like to add to the above - when I acknowledge the above possibility of Ms. Knightly transforming into a warship, I would also like to state I find it an improbability!
    Now... how you can say that with Transformers The Movie due out in July, I have no idea....

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    Re: Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    Now... how you can say that with Transformers The Movie due out in July, I have no idea....
    Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo !!!!!

    I'd forgotten about that!!! Think of the size of Transformer that an aircraft carrier would make!

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    Re: Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

    It also doesn't have to attempt disproving the existence of god because there is absolutely nothing that a hypothetical neutral observer would accept as evidence of the existence of any god.
    I accept the existence of God/Creator based on all the Brilliant/awesome design of what I see on this planet, design that science can only observe and wonder at! i.e. LIFE !

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    Re: Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    You left out all the bits - referred to by you where someone else does it as 'detailed explanations' - where I explain why I take the position I do.
    Well - I missed out the bits where you said things like:
    To accept even a fraction of woo-woo theories requires not only that science hasn't discovered some things yet, but that virtually the whole of science must be abandoned.
    Science doesn't have to disprove the existence of god; it's just a fact that no gods exist.
    and completely fail to justify said statements - sure. They didn't seem to help much.

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    Re: Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    I'm sorry, but it's easy to say 'You've got a closed mind' but far harder to explain why that isn't actually so.
    Perhaps there's a reason for the difficulty you have explaining that?

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    Re: Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

    Quote Originally Posted by Miguel View Post
    Suppose (just suppose) your back goes again next week and you could never dance again. How would you feel about Jesus and healing?
    That's a bit harsh!! I suspect he would thank The Lord for the other good things in his life that he still had. I've never experienced healing but I know that when my Dad died, our congregation were praying for my family and even knowing that they were concerned about our pain and suffering was a help!

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    Re: Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    well that's not the debate, is it? What would be the point of trying to prove or disprove that any god ever invented in human history and culture exist, or doesn't? Because indeed, there's a pretty good chance that they don't - not any one of them. People make their god concept take which ever form they want and invent their own faith rules. Yahve, Jesus-son-of-God, Buddha, Zeus... for all I care they could call It Caro.
    (cue sound of trap snapping shut) That's the point. Why should the current top-of-the-divinity-pops have any preferential position as against all the others. How come, if there is only one god, so many different varieties were revered by different peoples at different times? Why are all of the gods dismissed but this one is not?
    It's IMOFO a little more interesting (as far as 'hard' science is concerned) to look at the concept of god, rather than the forms it has taken in our various cultures throughout the ages of human history...
    Can you do one without the other?
    I.e. look at the concept of an omnipotent force that would be at the origin of the world we know. Now is there any scientific work that would provide any argument in favor or in defavor of this? i.e, what was before the Big Bang?
    But what is the point in postulating the existence of such a force in the first place? It simply complicates matters and provides no solutions. 'before' is a concept of this universe and therefore does not apply outside it. The big bang brought this universe, and time as operates in this universe, into existence and there was nothing before it. Well, even that's wrong; it is in fact a misnomer to speak of 'before' at all. At all.
    And to come back to this thread, whether or not that omnipotent force could cure people in a way that would appear to us, miraculous.
    And why it makes people ill, congenitally deformed, crippled, puts them into a coma and so forth in a way which would appear to us to be disgustingly capricious.
    What's so incompatible with current medecine in the theory that we might have energy flows in some way shape or form running through the body? The whole of our nervous system is based on electrical flows...
    Well, yeah.
    Electrochemical, strictly. But we know how that works: the neural network, potassium ion exchange, axons, dendrites, myelin sheaths; we can measure it with appropriate equipment, so much so that it is now possible to see red glows on a computer representation of the brain showing which thoughts originate in which areas.
    But these mysterious life forces are completely undetectable. Not only are the 'life forces' undetectable with, e.g. electrical detectors, X-ray detectors, and so forth but the 'life forces' would have to exist without any discernible affect on the organism at the cellular level. Scientists have now discovered the shapes of some of the most incredibly complex molecules that are responsible for the most sophisticated tasks an animal cell must carry out. Even the entire human genome has been mapped.
    'life forces' have not been encountered at any, repeat any, stage of the work that microbiologists are doing, nor at any stage of the work that medical researchers are doing. If the 'life forces' were so vital, so important, that simply being out of balance makes the person unwell, wouldn't you expect there to be gross evidence of that? Rather than the evidence being - despite the all-embracing nature of scientific enquiry, spread all over the planet - so far non-existent?

  20. #120
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    Re: Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    Now... how you can say that with Transformers The Movie due out in July, I have no idea....
    ...still can't rep you.

    It's annoying; I know the forum has to guard against the possibility that two people will rep each other until the board implodes, but that's two funny things you've said and I can't give you rep points for either. Why have I got to rep other people, whose posts I don't enjoy so much, or wait until I've encountered and repped sufficient enjoyable posts?

    Moan, groan, whinge...

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