Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

[Astro]

I have recently come back from Australia having been there for a month, during the first 3 weeks I suffered a hip and knee problem to the degree that I could not fall asleep because of the aching pain until 4-5 am... extreme discomfort.
Being a dancer you do tend live through these times frequently, knowing/hoping it will eventually go away. However this was quite intense, to the point where I could no longer put up with it and felt I had to make some effort to help myself. I went out and bought some Glucosamine and some fish oil capsules....double dosed myself up that day and lo and behold no more pain that night or thereafter...

Thanks for reminding me to take the Cod Liver Oil my mother gave me, it taste's awful but am giving it a go.[/quote]

That may be true of science as you know it. What you are really saying is "I believe in a lot of stuff that is utterly contradicted by science. Therefore I am going to assert that what science knows is only a proportion of 'everything that is happening'. I have absolutely no reason to suppose this is true apart from my personal preferences."

The fact that science makes new discoveries err....every now and then proves that we do not yet know everything. A good thing too with the likes of Bush/Blair around. Whoops, politics in the mix now![/quote]

Oh, and finally: which are the quantum theories that are constantly changing? I'm always keen to learn.

String theory? I am not a scientist. But take eggs for instance, we were told to "go to work on an egg." Then we were told to cut down on eggs because they contain chlostreal, then it changed again and the current scientific "fact" is that eggs are good for us because they have discovered that there are 2 types of chlostreal and the sort in eggs is good.[/quote]

I have learned such techniques which I believe have benefitted me, yes. And so I continue to use them. Whether the effect is psychosomatic, based on the energy principles that we are taught about Reiki, or a result of some other phenomenon, I don't much care - I get results good enough to keep me happy, and that's what counts.

I can also personally say from experience, as a patient, that Reiki treatment works.

[Barry Shnikov]

The fact that science makes new discoveries err....every now and then proves that we do not yet know everything. A good thing too with the likes of Bush/Blair around. Whoops, politics in the mix now!

There is a difference between 'not knowing everything', a claim which AFAIK no scientist has ever made, and accepting woo-woo phenomena as true, which involves confessing that we know nothing. This is literally true, by the way; if astrology works then everything that we understand through science is a fluke, and we have to re-investigate the whole principles on which the universe works, from galaxy superclusters to quarks, and everything in between. That is the scale of the problem.

String theory? I am not a scientist. But take eggs for instance, we were told to "go to work on an egg." Then we were told to cut down on eggs because they contain chlostreal, then it changed again and the current scientific "fact" is that eggs are good for us because they have discovered that there are 2 types of chlostreal and the sort in eggs is good.

I don't want to sound nasty but if you don't understand the analogy, you shouldn't make it. String theory hasn't changed anything, it is simply helpful in explaining gaps in the existing theories; also, it isn't yet accepted as correct, just a very good way of explaining things. Amongst other things that make it unpopular are the fact that it postulates 11 dimensions, a number which makes mathematicians uncomfortable. As for eggs: Go to Work on an Egg was the catch phrase of the people who are trying to sell us eggs, nothing to do with scientists! Plus you need to be careful of the difference between what science tells us about X, what the scientists put in their press releases about X, and what the press finally tells us about X.

I can also personally say from experience, as a patient, that Reiki treatment works.

Same question as to Straycat: are you saying reiki treatment gave you relief, or that it gave you relief for the reasons that reiki practitioners claim? The latter, of course, is rather different from the former, which even I can accept.

[Barry Shnikov]

On the subject of believing the improbable, and further to the discussion about Lourdes further up in this thread, have a look at this.

Read particularly the part where the priest says that the 'pilgrims' are not allowed to continue with drugs if they want to receive the holy water.

They claim 1,000 cures - a figure I don't credit for a femtosecond - but it's clear that tens of times as many people have been there for a cure. That's at least 9,000 people who haven't been cured but have been forced to abandon medical treatment.

If I could be bothered to do this right now, I'd do a poll. How many people believe that any cure is genuinely on offer here, how many people aren't sure, how many people think the priests should be killed painfully for causing such untold and unnecessary misery and death, etc.

I'm so disgusted I can't write any more.

[straycat]

On the subject of believing the improbable, and further to the discussion about Lourdes further up in this thread, have a look at this.

I agree it's horrific. I fail to see the relevance to this thread though.

I'm so disgusted I can't write any more.

Perhaps that's for the best?

[Barry Shnikov]

I agree it's horrific. I fail to see the relevance to this thread though.

Perhaps if you shut your eyes, screwed up your face and go "Nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!" it might pop into your head...


Seriously, the thread starts with Will talking about faith healing in a church by means of prayer, someone else mentions Lourdes and Caro goes and checks some of the statistics about 'miracles' at Lourdes, and you don't see that a church offering cures by means of 'miracle water' to HIV victims in Africa is relevant? Really?

(NB tried to rep you for your second comment - ho ho! - but wasn't allowed...)

[Lee Bartholomew]

Same question as to Straycat: are you saying reiki treatment gave you relief, or that it gave you relief for the reasons that reiki practitioners claim? The latter, of course, is rather different from the former, which even I can accept.

I got relief of some lass called Reiki when I was in Bangkok. Lovley girl. Very big, hairy hands though.



Religion is like Alcohol. Makes you think deaply about inaine rubbish, fight people who don't have the same views as you and makes you think that you are the only one thats right about everything.

I would rather worship a pint. At least when Im holding a beer I know for sure it exists. Unless im sleeping and dreaming of beer which would explain why there has been whole nights out I can only partly remember.

[Astro]

I have learned such techniques which I believe have benefitted me, yes. And so I continue to use them. Whether the effect is psychosomatic, based on the energy principles that we are taught about Reiki, or a result of some other phenomenon, I don't much care - I get results good enough to keep me happy, and that's what counts.

There is a difference between 'not knowing everything', a claim which AFAIK no scientist has ever made, and accepting woo-woo phenomena as true, which involves confessing that we know nothing. This is literally true, by the way; if astrology works then everything that we understand through science is a fluke, and we have to re-investigate the whole principles on which the universe works, from galaxy superclusters to quarks, and everything in between. That is the scale of the problem.

Science has not yet caught up.

I don't want to sound nasty but if you don't understand the analogy, you shouldn't make it. String theory hasn't changed anything, it is simply helpful in explaining gaps in the existing theories; also, it isn't yet accepted as correct, just a very good way of explaining things. Amongst other things that make it unpopular are the fact that it postulates 11 dimensions, a number which makes mathematicians uncomfortable. As for eggs: Go to Work on an Egg was the catch phrase of the people who are trying to sell us eggs, nothing to do with scientists! Plus you need to be careful of the difference between what science tells us about X, what the scientists put in their press releases about X, and what the press finally tells us about X.

Exactly, we cannot believe what scientists say. Experiments can be tailored to show the results a company want. Then statisticians can manipulate a finding - even turning the information 180 degrees.

Same question as to Straycat: are you saying reiki treatment gave you relief, or that it gave you relief for the reasons that reiki practitioners claim? The latter, of course, is rather different from the former, which even I can accept.

I have not studied Reiki so cannot answer, but the man who heals me occasionally using reiki, Carlos Constantinou, is actually a fully qualified cranial oesteopath!
The last clinic he worked at near Harley Street will not tell anyone where he is, they want us to use their oestopaths.
I reckon he's taken a year out.

[Barry Shnikov]

Science has not yet caught up.

I'm sorry, I have absolutely no idea what you mean by that. Or if it is actually a meaningful sentence.

Exactly, we cannot believe what scientists say.

Yes, we can.

Experiments can be tailored to show the results a company want. Then statisticians can manipulate a finding - even turning the information 180 degrees.

Oh, I get it!! It's a huge great global conspiracy between corporate interests, scientists, and statisticians, to fool the rest of us - er - non-scientific, statistically-illiterate - um - consumers into believing what they want us to believe.
I'm sorry, I don't know you except through this forum but that is cloud-cuckoo land.

I have not studied Reiki so cannot answer, but the man who heals me occasionally using reiki, Carlos Constantinou, is actually a fully qualified cranial oesteopath!

I think you mean osteopath, unless there are hormonal elements in his treatments...

Reiki was invented by a Japanese guy who stood under a waterfall a hundred years ago or so thus opening his cranial chakra (sigh) which enabled him to see things denied to other men, blah blah. Reiki practitioners assert that unwellness is caused by imbalance of the yin and yang and ho hum tiddley poo and that you can cure illness by rebalancing tum ti tie doh. No room for impact damage, viruses, bacteria, cancer, plain old biochemical malfunctioning and so forth. A reiki practitioner can certainly make a patient feel better, but not because of balancing of life forces.

Osteopathy was invented by a guy during the US civil war and there is still no evidence that his theories are correct, though some of the treatments he developed do appear to have some use.

I don't understand why people go traipsing off to let somebody whose medical training is based on pure supposition and speculation treat them for serious illnesses. (Well, except desperation, I suppose.) Once they are there, and something seems to go right, then they will fight to the death in support of their chosen quackery, but you don't see them having the same attitude about basic medical practitioners.

[Gus]

Religion is like Alcohol. Makes you think deaply about inaine rubbish, fight people who don't have the same views as you and makes you think that you are the only one thats right about everything

uuuhhhhhh arn't you just describing Man. Its not religion that causes wars, hate of others etc .. its the nature of some men. Read the books of Desmond Morris ... more anthrpology than religion ... religion is just an excuse. In my private world I've seen far more good come from the 'religous' people I've known than bad .... with the exception of the Christian Brothers who tried to 'educate' me at school.

[straycat]

(NB tried to rep you for your second comment - ho ho! - but wasn't allowed...)

Consider me suitably admonished. (Seriously - that was a very churlish comment of mine, and I sincerely apologise)

Anyway. Back to the fray

Perhaps if you shut your eyes, screwed up your face and go "Nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!" it might pop into your head...

Tried that, and caught a verrrry funny look from my partner - I think she's about to call them little men in white coats...

Seriously, the thread starts with Will talking about faith healing in a church by means of prayer, someone else mentions Lourdes and Caro goes and checks some of the statistics about 'miracles' at Lourdes, and you don't see that a church offering cures by means of 'miracle water' to HIV victims in Africa is relevant? Really?

Weeeel - OK. It's about as relevant as if someone had started a thread extolling the virtues of western medicine.... and I was to bring into it one Dr Harold Shipman (may he rot) as being a typical example of why I thought western medicine was a Bad Thing™**

**Which, in case you're wondering, I (in the main) don't.

[Degodier]

Can I just say to you Straycat

It's been an interesting thread. I hope we get to dance one day so I can shake you by the hand!!!

[Barry Shnikov]

Consider me suitably admonished. (Seriously - that was a very churlish comment of mine, and I sincerely apologise)

No, seriously, I thought it was funny and tried to give you +ve rep!

As for the African example: you seem to object to it on the basis that Will's story and the 'miracles' of Lourdes are 'nice', and the African example is 'nasty'. That doesn't make it irrelevant; it's the whole point. If you are going to take seriously the proposition that religion (or whatever) is to take the credit for 'nice' things happening, it must take the credit for the nasty things too.

It's like people who thank god that they weren't killed in the tsunami without noticing that if god gets the credit for saving them, he has to be credited with the misery, pain, injury and death he caused to everybody else.

Whereas, of course, your Shipman comparison is a red herring. Shipman's activities are no more relevant to medical practice than Adolf Hitler's activities were to the practice of painting. Shipman was a doctor, and by that was able to kill people more easily and for longer without being discovered; however, he wasn't claiming to killing people as part of the mainstream or even some esoteric perversion of medical practice. He was just a sociopathic killer who happened to be a doctor.

Contrast with the African HIV miracles. The HIV sufferers are told: you must give up conventional treatment if you want to bathe in the holy waters. The foregoing of treatments which have to potential to prolong or save life or improve the quality thereof almost out of recognition is a prerequisite of trying for the miraculous cure. Shipman never said 'you have to accept the risk that I might irrationally and without warning kill you instead of giving you an antibiotic, otherwise you aren't allowed on my patient list'.

[Caro]

As for the African example: you seem to object to it on the basis that Will's story and the 'miracles' of Lourdes are 'nice', and the African example is 'nasty'. That doesn't make it irrelevant; it's the whole point. If you are going to take seriously the proposition that religion (or whatever) is to take the credit for 'nice' things happening, it must take the credit for the nasty things too.

did I understand nothing of this thread?
I thought the whole argument was about BS saying that faith / god / religion pick-your-favorite cannot (as in scientifically proven) cure anybody, while SC argues that this has has never been scientifically proven. In the same way that it has never been proven either that faith /god /religion can.

Or did I miss a post where SC claimed that God performed Miracles?

think this might time for a summary from CeeCee, my head hurts...

and why do the words 'brick wall' keep popping into my mind

[straycat]

and why do the words 'brick wall' keep popping into my mind

(my head hurts )

[straycat]

Reiki was invented by a Japanese guy who stood under a waterfall a hundred years ago [and a load more similar rubbish about Reiki]

Out of interest, do you believe that all that interesting and utterly inaccurate summary helps your case or hinders it? Again - failing to see the point.

[straycat]

If you are going to take seriously the proposition that religion (or whatever) is to take the credit for 'nice' things happening, it must take the credit for the nasty things too.

So Shipman is a good example.... OK. Good - glad we cleared that up.

Whereas, of course, your Shipman comparison is a red herring. Shipman's activities are no more relevant to medical practice than Adolf Hitler's activities were to the practice of painting.

Mmmm. 'Bit like trying to link the actions of one small religious establishment with Christianity in general, perhaps?

Contrast with the African HIV miracles. The HIV sufferers are told: you must give up conventional treatment if you want to bathe in the holy waters. The foregoing of treatments which have to potential to prolong or save life or improve the quality thereof almost out of recognition is a prerequisite of trying for the miraculous cure. Shipman never said 'you have to accept the risk that I might irrationally and without warning kill you instead of giving you an antibiotic, otherwise you aren't allowed on my patient list'.

So - you're saying that Shipman was, in fact, worse, because he failed to give a disclaimer?
Possibilities:

• These guys are on the level, and are 100% correct about the effects of the water. Unlikely, but so far no-one seems to have produced any figures on it.
• These guys believe, but are wrong about the effects.
• They're lying and exploiting people.

Even in the third case, while there are parallels (both exploiting a position of trust created by their discipline/faith), only one party was actively murdering people for personal gain. As you say - you can't just dismiss a comparison because it's nastier than you like.

No, seriously, I thought it was funny and tried to give you +ve rep!

So even a direct insult fails to register? I give up. I don't think my communication skills are up to this task

[Barry Shnikov]

(snip stuff about Shipman}

Look, the Shipman stuff is a red herring. His killing wasn't part of a misapplication of medical principles, or a failure to understand them properly. He was a serial-killer who happened to be a doctor; no examination, no matter how detailed, of what he did can throw any light on the practice of medicine in this country. It can, of course, throw light on the administrative practices of the NHS and the national implementation of registration practice and procedure.

I'll try it a different way. If you were a GP, you could not analyse what Harold Shipman did to his victims and use your findings to improve the medical care you give to your patients. His killing was not a function of the medical care he gave, merely our failure to discover his wrongdoing was a function of the lack of supervision of doctors. He's not an uncomfortable example of the way English GPs practise medicine, he's an uncomfortable example of how no society can foresee every way in which sociopaths might pursue their hobbies.

So even a direct insult fails to register?

[Barry Shnikov]

Out of interest, do you believe that all that interesting and utterly inaccurate summary helps your case or hinders it? Again - failing to see the point.

Utterly inaccurate?

1

2

3

4

5

...for those who have a few minutes to spare.

Stray, I'm happy that you get benefits from reiki treatment. But you are noticeably reluctant to agree that reiki principles are real and actual. This suggests that you are not wholly comfortable with theories of 'life forces' and 'balancing' and so forth ('~ki' in reiki = 'chi' from chinese = life force - that's right, isn't it?). If that is the case then whatever appears to be giving you relief or healing is only called reiki by you, that's not what it really is.

[straycat]

Utterly inaccurate?

Aye. Utterly inaccurate. Try this one for a more detailed and balanced account.

Stray, I'm happy that you get benefits from reiki treatment. But you are noticeably reluctant to agree that reiki principles are real and actual. This suggests that you are not wholly comfortable with theories of 'life forces' and 'balancing' and so forth ('~ki' in reiki = 'chi' from chinese = life force - that's right, isn't it?). If that is the case then whatever appears to be giving you relief or healing is only called reiki by you, that's not what it really is.

OK. My belief is that these energy and balancing theories are fundamentally correct, either in the literal sense, or, possibly, as suitable metaphors interpreting and a more 'physical' reality. My own experiences have shown me evidence to reinforce this belief. I remain, however, receptive to other explanations.

[andystyle]

Scientific proof - that old one again. Unfortunately, science isn't infallible and it isn't 100% accurate (I'm talking about science as a whole here, incidentally).

100 or so years ago, the generally accepted idea of the atom was something like a billiard ball. A chap called Rutherford disproved this using alpha particles and gold foil to come up with the generally accepted model of the atom that is used today.

When the billiard ball model was used, our culture was at a certain level of scientific development. Humans being the curious things that they are, they continued to test and probe and question - and new discoveries are made, current theories are updated or binned etc etc. We are now at a more advanced level of scientific development than we were 100 (or so) years ago, and will be in 100 years to come.

My point is this. As science is not infallible, then we cannot say it 100% disproves the existence of a supreme being, be it the Christian God or the Muslim God or any other entity. Maybe one day we will be able to 100%, categorically, undisputably deny any supreme being. Right now, however, we can't. As was mentioned earlier, it is a theory. There are plenty of those around arguing that God doesn't exist, just as there are plenty of them that God does exist.

Barry may take the example of healing in a church as coincidental. His view, he's entitled to it. He's also entitled to explain, argue and cajole to his heart's content on the forum as to why his explanation is rational and Will's is not. But given that the vehicle he is using, namely science, is not water-tight then my own personal experiences and beliefs sway me towards the religious explanation.

Scientific knowledge is struggling towards a cure to cancer and HIV, to name but two. It does not have the answers right now. Hopefully, one day it will. What is can't prove right now (ie. that cancer can be cured) it should hopefully be able to prove later (and many people will be all the happier). All they have now is a theory. Similarily, atheists and theists have their theories on the existence of a supreme being.

Please, please, please...don't try and pass the non-existence of God off as scientific fact. It's not.