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Thread: Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

  1. #41
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

    Was wondering ... if there was a possibility that there was someone who could cure significant pain, whether it be by divine intercession, self projected belief or just a unusual physical ability ... wouldn't you think people would show a bit more interest in the possibility of having some of their injuries / pains / illnesses cured? Or is it easier to 'not believe' and endure your real pain ......

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    Re: Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Was wondering ... if there was a possibility that there was someone who could cure significant pain, whether it be by divine intercession, self projected belief or just a unusual physical ability ... wouldn't you think people would show a bit more interest in the possibility of having some of their injuries / pains / illnesses cured?
    But thousands do everyday.
    Or is it easier to 'not believe' and endure your real pain ......
    You don't always have to believe to be cured.

    I went to ISH one night with a bad back, and left at the end of the night pain free

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    Re: Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Was wondering ... if there was a possibility that there was someone who could cure significant pain, whether it be by divine intercession, self projected belief or just a unusual physical ability ... wouldn't you think people would show a bit more interest in the possibility of having some of their injuries / pains / illnesses cured? Or is it easier to 'not believe' and endure your real pain ......
    Not sure what you are asking, Gus.

    There is the 'Russell's teapot' argument.
    Is it possible that there are people who can really heal genuine ill-health by laying on of hands, or similar?
    - Yes; just as it is possible there is a teapot in orbit around the sun.

    Are we going to base our actions around either probability?
    - Not advisable.

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    Re: Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    But thousands do everyday.
    Millions, probably.

    Is the phenomenon real, because many believe?

    No.

  5. #45
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    But thousands do everyday. You don't always have to believe to be cured.

    I went to ISH one night with a bad back, and left at the end of the night pain free
    There is a world of difference between someone laying hands/praying for a few minutes and a significant pain/injury is cured and having a strain and loosening in up or masking the pain with a few hours exercise. How about a place that seems to make 'miracles happen .. Lourdes?

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    Re: Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

    I have recently come back from Australia having been there for a month, during the first 3 weeks I suffered a hip and knee problem to the degree that I could not fall asleep because of the aching pain until 4-5 am... extreme discomfort.
    Being a dancer you do tend live through these times frequently, knowing/hoping it will eventually go away. However this was quite intense, to the point where I could no longer put up with it and felt I had to make some effort to help myself. I went out and bought some Glucosamine and some fish oil capsules....double dosed myself up that day and lo and behold no more pain that night or thereafter... Now.. I want to testify! that was my personal experience and it definately worked for me, I cannot deny it. I would not have beleived that I could have had such relief so quickly. Was it coincidence? my experience is obviously no less subjective than Wills... but no less real to me either!!!

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    Re: Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

    I'm not pointing in the direction of anybody, here.

    But the phrase 'real for me' is actually an oxymoron. The 'reality' of any experience is not something any individual can judge subjectively.

    A US law professor used to have his second year students burst into the lecture theatre (where the first years were having a lecture on evidence) parade across the stage in silly costumes, carrying silly things and behaving in a silly fashion, and then empty out the other side.

    The professor would ask the first years to write down what they saw. Their answers were collated. I don't recall the exact figures but hardly anybody got all the details that they wrote down correct, nobody remembered everything and something like 20% of students got nothing right.

    The professor wanted to demonstrate that - contrary to widely held belief - eye witness evidence is intrinsically unreliable.

    But it works equally well as a demonstration of the imperfections of the human sensory processing system.

    'Real for me' is a meaningless expression. Equally valid would be "I could have sworn it actually happened!"

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    Re: Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    I'm not pointing in the direction of anybody, here.

    But the phrase 'real for me' is actually an oxymoron. The 'reality' of any experience is not something any individual can judge subjectively.

    A US law professor used to have his second year students burst into the lecture theatre (where the first years were having a lecture on evidence) parade across the stage in silly costumes, carrying silly things and behaving in a silly fashion, and then empty out the other side.

    The professor would ask the first years to write down what they saw. Their answers were collated. I don't recall the exact figures but hardly anybody got all the details that they wrote down correct, nobody remembered everything and something like 20% of students got nothing right.

    The professor wanted to demonstrate that - contrary to widely held belief - eye witness evidence is intrinsically unreliable.

    But it works equally well as a demonstration of the imperfections of the human sensory processing system.

    'Real for me' is a meaningless expression. Equally valid would be "I could have sworn it actually happened!"
    With the greatest respect...What a load of tosh!

    The example offered above has no validity as a comparison against the personal experiences of the pain relief being discussed here.

    Of course in such a 'game' as the 'law professor' played, it seems pretty obvious that nobody would be able to recite accurately EVERY LITTLE detail of the multi-aspected dress of an un-numbered group of people parading through, and those who would remember the most would be those who had greater memory ability or technique! But .....100% of the students would be right and KNOW for sure that in their experience, a fancy dress parade had walked through the class while they were there!!!!

    Will would not necessarily know the minute medical technicalities of his pain nor the the minute physical technicalities of his relief and perhaps if he did know, he would be unlikely to remember all those minor details, but, just as the students above, what he did know and would know for sure was that his pain was relieved/gone!

    So...'Real for me' is absolutely valid..... for them, if you choose not to believe them, then that's your prerogative, but your prerogative is actually irrelovant, (and, by the way, EQUALLY SUBJECTIVE ) to the fact, for both the students and to Will!

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    Re: Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruella View Post
    Maybe i'm blind but the only negative comment I can see on here is from Miguel. All the others said 'fantastic news' or 'thanks for sharing', apart from SF's pi$$ take over the spelling. (which I thought was very funny, but can't rep you, sorry Vince) Please clarify which posts you two (Fletch and Jamie) are disappointed by?
    sorry I missed this

    while I was doing my training for slimming world, I was taught to look for signs of 'put downs' in the class which would make one member uncomfortable, such as rolly eye's or people ignoring someone when talking and just general sarcastic innuendo's, you don't have to analyse some of the post on this thread to deeply to know there are sarcy undertones to them, and IMO that a negitive, i'm not that cleaver at twisting words, what you see is what you get. I don't understand when someone is speaking from the heart these a need to 'poo poo' it, let the bloke speak, there are enough threads where you have the opportunity to do it, i'm as guilty as the rest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daisy Chain View Post
    I've been "healed" at a Ceroc night. I'd had a very sore arm for several months which just wouldn't go away. One of my partner noticed me rubbing and offered to lay his hands on it as he suspected that he had healing hands.

    Well, feeling a right lemon, I sat in a quiet corner and let him do his stuff for a couple of minutes. Nothing seemed to happen but next night I went dancing and absolutely no pain from the sore arm.

    No idea what he did, or whether it is psychological, but next time I have a long term pain, I shall sidle up to him again.

    Daisy

    (A Pain-free Little Flower)

    this happened to me at Beach Boogie, I was taking part in 'its a knock out' and the rope broke and I trwanked right on my back, a lovely man from 'Berko' did much the same and it did help, but i'm not sure its not the power of my own mind

  10. #50
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    Re: Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

    Quote Originally Posted by Wes View Post
    But .....100% of the students would be right and KNOW for sure that in their experience, a fancy dress parade had walked through the class while they were there!!!!
    I'm not so sure...

    There's a famous piece of research (it won an "Ig Nobel" prize) where people were shown a video and asked to count basketball passes between people wearing black and white shirts, of which they count only count the passes made by people wearing white shirts.

    Around half the people doing this task completely failed to spot the person in a Gorilla suit walking through the middle of the basketball game, turning to beat its chest at the camera, and walking off.

    If you have a good internet link (it's a 7Mb Download) you can view the "basketball" video here.. The research paper is here.
    Love dance, will travel

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    Re: Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

    Quote Originally Posted by Wes View Post
    With the greatest respect...What a load of tosh!

    The example offered above has no validity as a comparison against the personal experiences of the pain relief being discussed here.

    Of course in such a 'game' as the 'law professor' played, it seems pretty obvious that nobody would be able to recite accurately EVERY LITTLE detail of the multi-aspected dress of an un-numbered group of people parading through, and those who would remember the most would be those who had greater memory ability or technique! But .....100% of the students would be right and KNOW for sure that in their experience, a fancy dress parade had walked through the class while they were there!!!!

    Will would not necessarily know the minute medical technicalities of his pain nor the the minute physical technicalities of his relief and perhaps if he did know, he would be unlikely to remember all those minor details, but, just as the students above, what he did know and would know for sure was that his pain was relieved/gone!

    So...'Real for me' is absolutely valid..... for them, if you choose not to believe them, then that's your prerogative, but your prerogative is actually irrelovant, (and, by the way, EQUALLY SUBJECTIVE ) to the fact, for both the students and to Will!
    I can't be bothered to say anything more than go off and read up on spontaneous remission and on the pain mechanism of the human body.

    Every sensation we have - sight being one, pain being another - is a form of data input into the central processing unit of the brain. The point is whether you are looking at something, and failing to apprehend the entire input, or whether you are feeling pain, and attributing causes to its arrival and departure, you are depending on signal accuracy and attenuation for which you have no objective measure. It follows, therefore, that everyone has to accept that subjective reality does not exist, or less vehemently, 'real' and 'reality' are usually defined by people in a way that prevents the concept from being attached to 'subjective' or '...for me' in any helpful fashion.

    "It was real for him" is a phrase that people use, and I recognise that. The point is that - as a response to "his conclusions are unreliable" it is as meaningful as "frerderblimto grefsmible"

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    Re: Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    I'm not so sure...

    There's a famous piece of research (it won an "Ig Nobel" prize) where people were shown a video and asked to count basketball passes between people wearing black and white shirts, of which they count only count the passes made by people wearing white shirts.

    Around half the people doing this task completely failed to spot the person in a Gorilla suit walking through the middle of the basketball game, turning to beat its chest at the camera, and walking off.

    If you have a good internet link (it's a 7Mb Download) you can view the "basketball" video here.. The research paper is here.
    Thanks David. That clip was in my mind while I was writing but I couldn't remember where I had seen it, or even whether it was on the internet.

    Of course, you've tipped off the forum readers and if Wes goes to watch it, he'll see the gorilla and wonder what all the fuss is about...

    Sensory input is unreliable, it's as simple as that.

    Those people who have been in love will know how unbelievably powerful the sense of wanting, desire, longing and so forth can be, that it can disrupt your whole life and even make you feel ill. That's why males in earlier ages felt that they were being 'bewitched', it seemed impossible that this feeling wasn't being 'inflicted' on them in some way.

    I'm sure it felt very 'real to them'...

  13. #53
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    Re: Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Of course, you've tipped off the forum readers and if Wes goes to watch it, he'll see the gorilla and wonder what all the fuss is about...
    Yeah I know.

    I did think about that issue when I posted the link but figured that hardly anyone would go to the trouble of counting the basketball passes, plus (given the context) folk would already have been alerted that something might be up.

    btw, the great Douglas Adams, with his notion of the SEP field, clearly had a good understanding of how the mind works in this area.
    Love dance, will travel

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    Re: Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    There is a world of difference between someone laying hands/praying for a few minutes and a significant pain/injury is cured and having a strain and loosening in up or masking the pain with a few hours exercise.
    Yeah, bad grammer. But in essence I think both cures work - I could have sat at home negatively thinking my body was not up to a night of dancing. Also how do we know that I my back wasn't made painless by a dancer with a healing touch? In regard to the laying on of hands, some people are natural healers.

    Does anyone know where Carlos Contantinou is?[quote]

    Quote Originally Posted by fletch View Post
    sorry I missed this

    while I was doing my training for slimming world, I was taught to look for signs of 'put downs' in the class which would make one member uncomfortable, such as rolly eye's or people ignoring someone when talking and just general sarcastic innuendo's, you don't have to analyse some of the post on this thread to deeply to know there are sarcy undertones to them, and IMO that a negitive,
    Apparently we NEED 12 compliments ( that's need, not would like) a day to be healthy - not neccesarily verbal. Being asked to dance and being thanked for a dance count, so how many dances in a night - loads more than 12, you can see why folks love it. [quote]




    this happened to me at Beach Boogie, I was taking part in 'its a knock out' and the rope broke and I trwanked right on my back, a lovely man from 'Berko' did much the same and it did help, but i'm not sure its not the power of my own mind

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    Re: Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    Also how do we know that I my back wasn't made painless by a dancer with a healing touch?
    ...because there is no such thing.
    In regard to the laying on of hands, some people are natural healers.
    That's just nonsense. You could not even begin to suggest how such a thing might work.

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    Re: Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    ...because there is no such thing.
    In your opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    That's just nonsense. You could not even begin to suggest how such a thing might work.
    Want to bet? I certainly could begin to suggest how it might work. But we've been through all that. Anyway - you're confusing opinion with fact again. Stop it.

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    Re: Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    In your opinion.


    Want to bet? I certainly could begin to suggest how it might work. But we've been through all that. Anyway - you're confusing opinion with fact again. Stop it.
    If I prefer Deep Purple's music and you prefer the Stray Cats, that's a matter of opinion.

    Whether 'faith healing' is a true and real phenomenon is not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of fact. When I state that it doesn't exist, this is not an opinion it is a statement of fact. If anyone has any evidence - real evidence, not just stories told by this or that person here or there about this or that feeling or impression about something that may or may not have happened and it doesn't matter how many thousands of such anecdotes there may be - then they can state as a fact that it does. We can then argue about the evidence, and eventually there can be a determination of who is right.

    On the question of whether Deep Purple or the Stray Cats are more enjoyable to listen to, there can be no determination of who is right.

    So it would seem to be you who is confusing opinion and fact.

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    Re: Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    If I prefer Deep Purple's music and you prefer the Stray Cats, that's a matter of opinion.

    the usual repeated argument
    Barry, Barry, Barry - I swear - you are the most evangelical atheist I've ever come across

    We've been through this. I can't give you evidence that the mystical / religious view of things is a valid one. You can't give me evidence that it is not (you think you can, but what you present is not evidence)

    So we are left with our individual beliefs and opinions. Which, no matter how deep-seated and how firmly held are still beliefs and opinions. Neither of us knows enough to be able to state them as facts.

    I respect your atheistic beliefs. I respect your right to hold those beliefs. I respect the reasoning which led you to them (though I dispute it)

    I do not respect your assertions that your beliefs are 'facts', that they are self-evident, or that people failing to share them are idiots (forgive me if that's not what you're saying, but it's the way it comes across to me)

    Oh - and Deep Purple and the Stray Cats were both great bands. In my opinion.
    Last edited by straycat; 1st-April-2007 at 12:03 PM.

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    Re: Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    Oh - and Deep Purple and the Stray Cats were both great bands. In my opinion.
    O, well we can agree on those as facts, then!

    Again, you make the mistake that there needs to be evidence of the atheist/non-woo woo point of view.

    This is to put the cart before the horse. We get very philosophical here.

    When deciding what is real and true, and what is not, each individual must go back to first principles. He has to examine those things that he has learnt or absorbed, and those things which are presented to him at this time, and apply a test or series of tests to them in order to make that decision.

    When you do that, he rapidly appreciates that unless he is to lose his grip entirely, he must accept only those things for which the evidence is unimpeachable.

    Now, at this time in human history it is literally impossible for any one person to apply those tests himself. A television could be the result of magical intervention, or it could be the result of quantum mechanics, physics and chemistry. Few people have the knowledge and skill still less the technical equipment necessary to assess which of these is true. So each person must pick and choose what evidence they are going to rely on when making the decision. Should he rely on the things he learnt, from direct observation in the science classroom, at school, and extrapolate as follows: "My science teacher and the writers of the science textbooks I read at school told me that there was an underlying mechanism for the observable universe, and I took part in experiments which demonstrated - so far as they went - the truth of the things the scientists told me. Those same scientists tell me that various disciplines within different sciences combined to discern the principles behind cathode ray tubes and information transmission by electromagnetic radiation (etc etc) and so therefore I conclude that the television works on scientific principles" or should he just say "I can't explain it myself - it must be magic".

    When confronted by somebody explaining the principles on which illness and disease affect the human organism, one of them saying "microbes - parasites - symbiosis - infection - tissues - cells - organic chemistry - microbiology - experimentation - double blind - double effect - remission - placebo - uncertainty - review and revision" and somebody else saying "a magic man healed me" then he should apply the same principles.

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    Re: Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    O, well we can agree on those as facts, then!
    No - we share that same opinion

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Again, you make the mistake that there needs to be evidence of the atheist/non-woo woo point of view.
    No - I said no such thing. I said that there needs to be concrete evidence if you want to change its status from 'theory' into 'fact'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    This is to put the cart before the horse.
    Not if you're going by standard scientific method. It might be if you're looking at it from a legal standpoint.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    We get very philosophical here.
    There are more things in heaven and earth, Barratio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

    Your grasp of scientific proofs is a little one-sided, if you'll forgive me for saying so. You do not prove that God does not exist by failing to prove that he does. You prove that he doesn't by finding concrete evidence that he doesn't, or by devising an experiment that will provide said evidence - and, of course, that experiment needs to be water-tight. Until you have done such a thing, his non-existence is, in scientific terms, exactly the same as his existence... only a theory.

    Given the nature of faith and belief, such an experiment is probably just about impossible to devise - much like an experiement to prove that He (or maybe she) does - imagine, if you will, an experiment which appeared to create under lab conditions a divine intervention of some kind. You still need to prove that it is a divine intervention, and not a phenomenon with another cause - and often that means a painstaking process of finding alternative theories for the phenomenon, and disproving them one by one, 'till you're left with just the one remaining one. And still you're left with the possibility that there's something you missed.

    Such is the nature of science. It does not provide nearly the certainty about things that you would like it to - your belief in it, if you'll forgive my saying so, borders on the religious. Hence the fact that I now see you as an evangelistic atheist (and yes, my mental picture of you does include the flowing white beard, the robes and the staff)

    But judging from your taste in music, there is hope for you yet

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