Amazing thing happened to me last Sunday

[JiveLad]

An amazing thing's happened to me this week too..


I was feeling OK

Then I went to the gym and met this lovely young guy called Phil, he assured me he could have me looking and feeling like a new person in 8 weeks! Woo hoo!

So, on Monday, he had me running about like a lunatic and boxing! Then on Wednesday, he had me doing all sorts of weird and wonderful things on weight machines and floor exercises and he finished off by stretching my limbs passed all realms of normality


And today, I can truthfully report, I definitely feel like a new person.. she's about 90 and can hardly walk!

PS - Why the boxing? Is it to bring a new dimension to your dancing?

[straycat]

Praise Photoshop!

I don't want to sound overly negative or doubtful here, but I doubt it was Photoshop. I agree that it can have these effects, but it takes half a lifetime of dedicated training before you begin to experience its true healing power.

[SilverFox]

I don't want to sound overly negative or doubtful here, but I doubt it was Photoshop. I agree that it can have these effects, but it takes half a lifetime of dedicated training before you begin to experience its true healing power.

Blasphemer!

[Ste]

Actualy, is it just me ... but who gives a $%&**** about Will?? WHO IS THIS TEENAGE KID? Bring him to me now! We could make a fortune ... and I've got two dodgy kness he could do something about it.

Didn't Jesus say something like if people wanted to approach God then they had to come as little children? Is that right? Maybe it's not surprising that kids have faith.

But yeah....where is that kid? Can I get what that kid's got?

[Gus]

But yeah....where is that kid? Can I get what that kid's got?

I thought of it first ... get your filthy Christian paws off him ... he's mine ... MINE etc etc etc

Thats a thought .... I've only heard of miracles in a 'Christian' context. Do other faiths have 'evidence' of such miracles ... never heard of a Muslim or Jewish manifestation of faith ....

Back to the cynics ... I'll be the first to admit that my faith is well short of that of Ste or Will, even after attending an Alpha course. One part of which was a communal prtaying session with some 'speaking in toungues' stuff ... which I felt extremely uncomfortable with and still feel was BS ..... however, at one point one of my mates was praying for me, and I did feel and extremely strong impression of power eminating from her ... nothing I've ever experienced before and since. I know the Church's explanation of it ... power of the Holy Spirit etc ... which sort of freaks me out but don't really have any other explanations readily at hand ...

[Lory]

PS - Why the boxing? Is it to bring a new dimension to your dancing?

I dunno, I have a suspicion he's into S&M. (he seems to focus a lot on pain! )

I dread to think what kind of dimension it might to my dancing!

[straycat]

Blasphemer!

Hardly sir. Just a higher-level initiate than your good self. Clearly

[LMC]

I'm a sceptic/weak atheist, but I've seen things that have no rational explanation (to me anyway). I respect the faith of those who have had/believe they have had benefits from some Higher Power. But I can't and don't share it.


Oh, is this a good time to say

The significant owl hoots in the night

[Barry Shnikov]

I respect the faith of those who have had/believe they have had benefits from some Higher Power.

Why is that?

[LMC]

OK, you got me:

Amendment:

I respect the faith of those who have had/believe they have had benefits from some Higher Power EDIT: as long as they respect my lack of faith and don't try to convert me.

Will was describing his experience - not castigating those who don't believe. That, in my book, deserves a little respect. As well as a silly reference.

[Barry Shnikov]

Rest assured I'm not trying to catch you out, or score points, or anything.

I just want to know why we should respect other people's beliefs, simply because they are beliefs.

I respect - Norman Foster, as an architect, Magdi Yacoub, as a doctor, John Humphries, as a journalist, Madonna, as a musician, Martina Navratilove, as a sportswoman. I simply have no idea why we have to tread gingerly around people's beliefs.

Are they so fragile that they need special protection? Shouldn't they be a bit more robust if these are what people live their lives by? Why should someone be offended if their beliefs are ridiculed?

I know that it is somewhat automatically considered to be 'bad form' to criticise people's beliefs, let alone laugh at them.

But why?

[Lory]

I know that it is somewhat automatically considered to be 'bad form' to criticise people's beliefs, let alone laugh at them.

But why?

Maybe, because we know they can't 'prove' anything, that it's taken as though we're automatically trying to imply that they must be mad, ignorant or delusional?

[Barry Shnikov]

Maybe, because we know they can't 'prove' anything, that it's taken as though we're automatically trying to imply that they must be mad, ignorant or delusional?

To start with, there is a difference betwee mocking someone's beliefs, and just not according them any respect. As it happens, I would argue that it is important to argue for the right to mock beliefs, since often that is the most appropriate response. (I am never going to debate a Scientologist's beliefs with a straight face.) But all I'm asking here is why respect should automatically be required in the face of beliefs.

I think it's a hangover, from the time when mocking the belief of someone else could get you killed - Catholics v Protestants in seventeenth and eighteenth century Europe, e.g. It became necessary to 'respect' other peoples' belief not because the belief was worthy of respect, but because if you mocked them the consequences could be dire.

This is what (many) Moslems have been seeking to do since The satanic verses - respect and even adopt our beliefs, or we'll kill you.

In the final analysis, I would have to accept that if all someone does is hold a belief, then he's welcome to it. It's just there, no need to respect or mock.

But the millisecond he begins to attempt to exercise any influence whatever on the basis of that belief, then it and he become fair game for criticism. (I ought to say I don't consider that this is what Will did in this thread, he just told us a story.) Otherwise, the belief becomes an orthodoxy and a challenge becomes a deadly heresy.

[LMC]

But why?

For me, it's the difference between person and principle. Wot Lory said, nearly.

F'r'example: some of the believers on the famous astrology thread (is it dead yet?) are obviously far from ignorant (although possibly mad or delusional ). I respect the power of their belief (faith) - even though I believe that the belief (article of faith) itself is extremely silly. I would expect them to do the same for my faith in astrology being a crock of ****. Reason? - it makes for better arguments for a start ...

EDIT: ezackly Barry - hence my Green Amendment

[straycat]

But the millisecond he begins to attempt to exercise any influence whatever on the basis of that belief, then it and he become fair game for criticism. (I ought to say I don't consider that this is what Will did in this thread, he just told us a story.) Otherwise, the belief becomes an orthodoxy and a challenge becomes a deadly heresy.

As shown in this sad cautionary tale:

I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said 'Stop! don't do it!'
'Why shouldn't I?' he said.
I said, 'Well, there's so much to live for!'
He said, 'Like what?'
I said, 'Well...are you religious or atheist?'
He said, 'Religious.'
I said, 'Me too!
Are you Christian or Buddhist?'
He said, 'Christian.'
I said, 'Me too!
Are you Catholic or Protestant?'
He said, 'Protestant.'
I said, 'Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?'
He said, 'Baptist!'
I said, 'Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?'
He said, 'Baptist Church of God!'
I said, 'Me too! Are you original Baptist Church of God, or are you reformed Baptist Church of God?'
He said, 'Reformed Baptist Church of God!'
I said, 'Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915?'
He said, 'Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915!'
I said, 'DIE, HERETIC SCUM!,' and pushed him off.

[LMC]

But the millisecond he begins to attempt to exercise any influence whatever on the basis of that belief, then it and he become fair game for criticism.

Actually, thinking about it, and following on from the cool cat's post - "it" - yes

"he" (or she) personally - no.

Otherwise that makes you/me as bad as they are. Heresy becomes orthodoxy ...

[Wes]

But there is nothing quite like experiencing a miracle for yourself, and nothing this clear cut has ever happened to me before.

Im sure if any of you cynics (and that includes me) had had this very personal and what seems like a very sure experience, then you would have a different perspective.... or are you saying that Will is deluded!

All I have to say on this subject is... amazing, Good for you Will, glad your pains gone.

[Barry Shnikov]

Im sure if any of you cynics (and that includes me) had had this very personal and what seems like a very sure experience, then you would have a different perspective.... or are you saying that Will is deluded!

All I have to say on this subject is... amazing, Good for you Will, glad your pains gone.

Oh dear.

Personal experience, I'm afraid, is not all it is cracked up to be.

Did you not read my story about the pain in my knee? Why is it inherently less believable that the Forum cured my knee than that the little boy cured Will's back? That was my personal experience. The fact that I choose to ascribe my 'cure' to random combination of circumstances doesn't make me any less cured than Will, nor does the personal nature of his experience give him any insight into the cause of his 'cure'.

What you need to remember is that the human brain is the most powerful pattern-detector in the known universe. One of them can detect patterns in a face in a fraction of the time and with more accuracy than a Cray running face recognition software. It is such a powerful pattern detector that it is constantly fooled into seeing patterns and connections which aren't really there. That is why, before ascribing value to such connections, it is necessary to determine whether the connection is real or not.

Or you could just decide that you will believe whatever makes you feel warm and cuddly.

[Wes]

Did you not read my story about the pain in my knee? Why is it inherently less believable that the Forum cured my knee than that the little boy cured Will's back? That was my personal experience. The fact that I choose to ascribe my 'cure' to random combination of circumstances doesn't make me any less cured than Will, nor does the personal nature of his experience give him any insight into the cause of his 'cure'.

Who says its 'inherently less believable'!?!? If that is your GENUINE belief, then so be it, who is anyone else to knock it. Its not their 'personal experience'
The fact is, that it is Will that has had that experience and, based on all that he is, he has drawn the conclusions he has, and that is what he is sharing!

[Barry Shnikov]

Did you not read my story about the pain in my knee? Why is it inherently less believable that the Forum cured my knee than that the little boy cured Will's back? That was my personal experience. The fact that I choose to ascribe my 'cure' to random combination of circumstances doesn't make me any less cured than Will, nor does the personal nature of his experience give him any insight into the cause of his 'cure'.

Who says its 'inherently less believable'!?!? If that is your GENUINE belief, then so be it, who is anyone else to knock it. Its not their 'personal experience'
The fact is, that it is Will that has had that experience and, based on all that he is, he has drawn the conclusions he has, and that is what he is sharing!

That is what Will has done. And I am quarrelling with the conclusions he has drawn, and the upshot of the ultra-subjective view of things ("oh, well, if that's your personal experience then who am I to differ?") is that if it prevails then everything is permissible.

I'm sure nobody really believes that, so the question is, what experiences do we accept as reliable and which ones do we file under 'Doubtful'.

(NB Don't forget to put back the "[" and the "/" when you mouse-select a block including the last text before the end of a message.)