When is a beginner not a beginner?

[StokeBloke]

So I'd say a beginner is someone I can expect little to no help from - I'm pretty much totally responsible for making the moves work. An intermediate will make my life easier and let me lead moves I haven't quite nailed without it noticing. The next level is when they can smoothly deal with things going wrong and they are adding to the dance either through styling, playing, floorcraft etc.

I really don't expect a beginner to be doing floorcraft.

To paraphrase; it is more a case of how well they offset your inability, rather than their own ability that counts. If they are unable to mop up your mistakes/poorly led moves then they are beginners. If they can cope with anything you throw at them, and they are able to add some stuff in to make you look even better then they are not. Got it

OK, that sounds a bit of a harsh response to your well worded and considered reply. I'm just trying to strip it all back to the bare bones, that's all.

[Ghost]

To paraphrase; it is more a case of how well they offset your inability, rather than their own ability that counts. If they are unable to mop up your mistakes/poorly led moves then they are beginners. If they can cope with anything you throw at them, and they are able to add some stuff in to make you look even better then they are not. Got it

OK, that sounds a bit of a harsh response to your well worded and considered reply. I'm just trying to strip it all back to the bare bones, that's all.

Pretty much as I'm assuming their abilty to off-set my inability is based on their ability (I think )

Course the trick then is to resist the temptation to dance that way

But as a base-line distinction I think it works.

[David Bailey]

To paraphrase; it is more a case of how well they offset your inability, rather than their own ability that counts. If they are unable to mop up your mistakes/poorly led moves then they are beginners. If they can cope with anything you throw at them, and they are able to add some stuff in to make you look even better then they are not. Got it

OK, that sounds a bit of a harsh response to your well worded and considered reply. I'm just trying to strip it all back to the bare bones, that's all.

Actually, that's a nice definition - I like it

[StokeBloke]

Actually, that's a nice definition - I like it

How do other follows view their peers when it comes to being beginners?

So where does that leave leads? When is a lead no longer a beginner in the eyes of leads and follows?

By jove, it looks like we're getting somewhere!

[Trouble]

well thats easy.... A lead is no longer a beginner when he can make a beginner look like an intermediate.

[LMC]

I like that definition too SB.

But because I am mean and horrible, I would like to offer the suggestion that you are no longer a beginner when you no longer feel the need to ask someone how long they have been dancing. Because instead, you can get a good idea of the quality of their connection/lead/follow and therefore their "ability" by dancing with them ...

[Ghost]

So where does that leave leads? When is a lead no longer a beginner in the eyes of leads

By jove, it looks like we're getting somewhere!

For pure beginner to starting intermediate - they don't get "stuck" repeating beginner moves (You know the "I keep dancing manspin followed by yo-yo folllowed by manspin...." look ) and they're not having to think about what comes next either in terms of moves or in parts of moves (Step her out and um, help). Well much anyway They can cover a basic mistake in the beginners moves cleanly and with a smile And then carry on dancing without being rattled.

Moving from the beginner / intermediate threshold to the intermediate / competent intermediate threshold is when the lead is dealing with their own floorcraft rather than relying on those around them. If they're dancing with an competent intermediate + follow, they look like they're dancing the beginner moves with their partner rather than having a wrestling match.

[JiveLad]

I think it was Dizzy (?) who brought a friend to Slinkys one time who'd done no Ceroc at all - and then took her to the Blues Room Really good way to find out what you can actually lad and what moves women are "helping" you with.

I Jive lad each time I go dancing.

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[nebula]

What I am talking about is real peer judgement - something that we all know happens. Even if we try to kid ourselves otherwise. Peer judgement as in "this is so-and-so, s/he's pretty good considering s/he's a beginner".

When is a beginner no longer a beginner in your eyes?

I felt a total beginner when I went to Camber in March - even though by then I was dancing for about 5 months.
After coming back, in comparison with my "peers" I felt ... er... superior... wrong word, I know, but nothing else comes to mind at the mo...
The real "not a beginner anymore" thing was when the guy I used to dance with - a lot! - asked whether I've been taking some private lessons. I was really shocked when, after me acknowledging the Camber expedition, he said that my dancing has really "rocketed" - his exact words.
Yesterday I was leading in the beginners class, and another lady asked me for a dance after the lesson. Now, I fully admit that I am crap in freestyle - not experienced enough to go beyond the lesson boundaries. But, and it was a big but - she, apparently, has been dancing 3 months longer than I have - and I would classify her as a total beginner. She didn't have any sense of music, beat, no spinning technique whatsoever, etc, etc.
I think the beginner follower stops being seen seen as a beginner when the leader can do more complicated moves without fear of it all going horribly wrong. And a beginner leader - when the more experienced follower will accept the dance request without mentally rolling her eyes and preparing to be bored out of her mind with the repetitive repertoire.

For both - it's the style that counts! If you are a wooden plank - dance for 3 years, and you would still be viewed as a beginner!

[Beowulf]

let me see...

When you stop feeling like a beginner - False
When you stop acting like a beginner - Nope
When you stop worrying and smile - Nope on this one too

See.. I AM still a beginner

I think IMHO it's confidence, when people see you are confident and not nervous then they will not perceive you as a beginner.

Of course, I have a dirty trick. I never say "I'm a beginner" during dances. That would be a fib.. I do however state "Please forgive my beginner moves" and hope they never ask how long I've been dancing !

[Trouble]

let me see...



See.. I AM still a beginner

I think IMHO it's confidence, when people see you are confident and not nervous then they will not perceive you as a beginner.

Of course, I have a dirty trick. I never say "I'm a beginner" during dances. That would be a fib.. I do however state "Please forgive my beginner moves" and hope they never ask how long I've been dancing !

awww Beo.... that is a straight forward confidence thing. Are you going to southport!! - i would love to try out your beginner moves, i bet your lovely to dance with xx

[Raul]

I must not answer....

I must not answer...

I must not answer..

A beginner is not a beginner ....

when he is also The Forum Legend





The answer to the question depends on the silent part of the question "to who?"

To himself - it depends on his level of self belief, his attitude, his delusion whatever.

To others - it depends who they are. To somebody who judges himself to be better - yes otherwise no. Judgement sometimes has no relation to ability, perfectionists see everyone as a beginner, the deluded thinks of himself as particularly brilliant.

.

[Raul]

That would be a fib.. I do however state "Please forgive my beginner moves" and hope they never ask how long I've been dancing !

I would never dare say that !

In my case they could very well answer "Don't worry, you'll get better ...... eventually."

.

[Dorothy]

Defn of beginner:
1. a person or thing that begins.
2. a person who has begun a course of instruction or is learning the fundamentals: swimming for beginners.
3. a person who is inexperienced; novice.

Perhaps through peer review and personal assessment they can decide when tey have elevated to the dizzy heights of intermediate!

Me- I am always learning