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Thread: When is a beginner not a beginner?

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    Commercial Operator StokeBloke's Avatar
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    Question When is a beginner not a beginner?

    So, when does a beginner cease to be seen as a beginner?

    This is something touched upon by Cruella in another thread. I feel sure it's been covered in terms of when do you move from beginner to intermediate classes or whatever. But, when is a dancer seen by their peers as no longer being a beginner? Is it time served on the floor? Attitude? Catalogue of moves?The number of venues or competitions attended? A combination? When does this transition take place in your mind? I know dancing is one of those things that you will never stop learning new things in (if you wish to). But when is a beginner no longer seen as a beginner?

    As a mere beginner of five months I'm quite curious to know

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    The Gobby one! WittyBird's Avatar
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    Re: When is a beginner not a beginner?

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    So, when does a beginner cease to be seen as a beginner?
    I think it's down to the person themselves to be honest. It's in your own attitude.

    When you stop feeling like a beginner
    When you stop acting like a beginner
    When you stop worrying and smile

    That is just my opinion hope it helps

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    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: When is a beginner not a beginner?

    It is all relative .........

    The beginner will feel he/she is not a beginner if he/she can get through a whole track without going wrong especially when dancing with a more advanced dancer - however the advance dancer (being more experienced) is making the beginner feel this way.

    I would say, stop putting labels on your dancing - just enjoying the dance and the more you dance the better you will be

    Extra Note:

    If you actually need to know your dancing status - for classes/competition/workshops etc., try attending the intermediate class, and if you find it too difficult - well there you go !
    Last edited by Minnie M; 26th-March-2007 at 07:20 PM.


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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: When is a beginner not a beginner?

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    But when is a beginner no longer seen as a beginner?
    In Ceroc, after 6 (or possibly a whole 12) lessons.

    In AT, after 10 years of continuous work.

    David "8 years, 7 months, 3 weeks and 2 days to go" James

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    Registered User Mythical's Avatar
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    Re: When is a beginner not a beginner?

    For me, I stop seing a leader as a beginner once they can lead beginners moves smoothly, and with some variety. Wether that's after one lesson, or ten years.

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    Re: When is a beginner not a beginner?

    I must not answer....

    I must not answer...

    I must not answer..

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    Registered User SeriouslyAddicted's Avatar
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    Re: When is a beginner not a beginner?

    Not sure why we feel the need to label people but IMHO your "status" probably depends on where you are dancing at the time. I have only been dancing a year but would say that at my local venue I don't consider myself a beginner. Compare that to a weekender or a venue in London and I feel like I could have only been dancing a couple of weeks.

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    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Re: When is a beginner not a beginner?

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    So, when does a beginner cease to be seen as a beginner ...
    A beginner follower is one where a leader doesn't have to be concerned with leading complex moves, or repeating themselves.

    So essentially a beginner follower ceases to be a beginner, when the lead has to start worrying.

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    Commercial Operator StokeBloke's Avatar
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    Re: When is a beginner not a beginner?

    The whole point of this thread is to try and ascertain when YOU view a new dancer no longer as a beginner. When does a dancer become accepted by their peers no longer as a beginner. I know all the usual politically correct pap about beauty on the inside, it's the taking part that counts, and you know within yourself when you're ready for intermediate classes

    What I am talking about is real peer judgement - something that we all know happens. Even if we try to kid ourselves otherwise. Peer judgement as in "this is so-and-so, s/he's pretty good considering s/he's a beginner".

    What tips the scales inside the dance community to delete that caveat? What is YOUR yard stick for measuring somebody as a dancer, and when do they leave the beginner phase of their dancing career. Please save the hippy-tree-hugging-lovey-dovey answers for another thread. Let's have it brutal, raw and honest

    When is a beginner no longer a beginner in your eyes?

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    The Gobby one! WittyBird's Avatar
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    Re: When is a beginner not a beginner?

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    The whole point of this thread is to try and ascertain when YOU view a new dancer no longer as a beginner. When does a dancer become accepted by their peers no longer as a beginner?
    Err I think I answered that.

    With this...
    Quote Originally Posted by WittyBird View Post
    I think it's down to the person themselves to be honest. It's in your own attitude.

    When you stop feeling like a beginner
    When you stop acting like a beginner
    When you stop worrying and smile

    That is just my opinion hope it helps

    The point I was trying to make is people can perceive your nervousness,inexperience etc.

    having said that, when did Trampy stop being a beginner? - I don't think he thinks he has, but although that is said in jest - there is always a true word said in jest.

    The point being, we are all beginners and there is always so much to learn.

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    Registered User Ghost's Avatar
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    Re: When is a beginner not a beginner?

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    The whole point of this thread is to try and ascertain when YOU view a new dancer no longer as a beginner.
    I danced with a lady tonight who should definitely be classed as a "Ceroc beginner" - it was one of the best dances I had all night. Go figure.

    The obvious answer as a lead as to whether I classify a lady as a "Ceroc beginner" is how well she can follow and how apparent it is she's never seen certain moves before. Which brings about the interesting situation of someone who's a "natural" or very experienced in another dance form, but hasn't done Ceroc much / at all. They're technically a beginner at Ceroc. Beyond that.....

    There does seem to be different expectations from women if they've seen the guy dancing with someone else, particularly the "oh I'm not good enough to do that" response when the guy's just been made to look terrific by a skilled lady.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: When is a beginner not a beginner?

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    The whole point of this thread is to try and ascertain when YOU view a new dancer no longer as a beginner.
    Honestly, I don't really think about it that much.

    Admittedly I used to, up until a few years back anyway - hmmm, maybe that's when I stopped being a beginner

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    What tips the scales inside the dance community to delete that caveat? What is YOUR yard stick for measuring somebody as a dancer, and when do they leave the beginner phase of their dancing career.
    My yardstick is "how well do they follow my lead" - I'm militantly indifferent to how long they've been dancing or how much experience they have.

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    When is a beginner no longer a beginner in your eyes?
    The question you're actually asking is not "what is a beginner", but "what is an intermediate dancer", and there's no real answer to that; God knows we've debated it enough times.

    The only thing I can add to that is that I strongly believe this "6 lessons" stuff is rubbish, I think most people usually need a solid year of dancing (with at least 50 lessons) before they can even think of becoming a non-beginner. Learning partner dancing is difficult.

    In fact, if you have to have a classification, I'd have several more grades, to get the message across th- so something like:
    • Novice
    • Beginner
    • Improver
    • Intermediate
    • Experienced
    • Advanced
    • - Expert

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    Re: When is a beginner not a beginner?

    you stop being a beginner when you have the confidence to ask and not apologise all the way through the dance.


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    Re: When is a beginner not a beginner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    you stop being a beginner when you have the confidence to ask and not apologise all the way through the dance.

    Some people are like that from day 1. They are also sometimes the ones that stay looking like beginners forever.

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    Registered User the whale's Avatar
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    Re: When is a beginner not a beginner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    sometimes they stay looking like beginners forever.
    Did someone call for me

    D

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: When is a beginner not a beginner?

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    The whole point of this thread is to try and ascertain when YOU view a new dancer no longer as a beginner. When does a dancer become accepted by their peers no longer as a beginner.
    People are still missing this point – it's not when do you yourself stop being a beginner – it's when do other people stop being beginners to you.

    I'd say beginners stop being beginners to me when they become either good, or bad, intermediates.

    OK, let me explain that...

    Once through the beginner phase, followers have either learnt to follow quite well, or they've learnt the moves quite well. The ones that have learnt to follow I can usually dance well with. Those who have only learnt the moves I find it difficult to dance with as I don't tend to do the moves as they've learnt them. Fortunately most followers learn to follow quite well eventually. (Unfortunately some don't. )

    Let me clarify this... The "learnt to follow"ers have also learnt moves, and the "learnt the move"ers have learnt some following skill. It's about where their skills are most concentrated. Although I've classed no-longer-beginners into two categories, there's really a range of abilities between these two extremes. And as I said, once our new intermediates get some more experience, they are likely to balance out the skills they need to make them good dancers.

    (Hope this makes sense to someone – not sure how much sense it makes to me. )
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: When is a beginner not a beginner?

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    The whole point of this thread is to try and ascertain when YOU view a new dancer no longer as a beginner.
    The only point at which this becomes a relevant question for me is if they have learnt so many bad habits that I no longer wish to dance with them. Luckily most of the places I dance now don't seem to suffer this problem...

    Sean

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    Re: When is a beginner not a beginner?

    Still waiting for the punchline ...

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: When is a beginner not a beginner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    Still waiting for the punchline ...
    When it's ajar!

    Hmm... Not sure that works...
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Registered User Ghost's Avatar
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    Re: When is a beginner not a beginner?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    (Hope this makes sense to someone – not sure how much sense it makes to me. )


    Put another way - how good to I have to be at leading a move for it to work on them? If I'm dancing with someone who hasn' learnt to follow and doesn't know any moves then I need to lead the move perfectly. I think it was Dizzy (?) who brought a friend to Slinkys one time who'd done no Ceroc at all - and then took her to the Blues Room Really good way to find out what you can actually lad and what moves women are "helping" you with.

    So I'd say a beginner is someone I can expect little to no help from - I'm pretty much totally responsible for making the moves work. An intermediate will make my life easier and let me lead moves I haven't quite nailed without it noticing. The next level is when they can smoothly deal with things going wrong and they are adding to the dance either through styling, playing, floorcraft etc.

    I really don't expect a beginner to be doing floorcraft.

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